AAR for Local Tournament (17 NOV)

[ianj253]

Really liked reading the mini report. I'm looking forward to the rest of summaries and your full blown OODA breakdowns when you get around to doing them.

[knife&fork]

Not sure people are suggesting either of those armies shouldnt be played. Theres just something about the literal brokenness that is the screamer/flamer spam combo. Personally I wont begrudge a player for playing it, but its not an enjoyable experience for me on any level - and more importantly it speaks volumes to how poorly designed the codex/units are if those codicies build themselves.

 

Also, Daemons have done exceptionally well in local meta from their release. They suffered towards the end a little with certain DE and GK builds, but otherwise dominated locally- winning national tournaments here, so I dont believe they have been the whipping boys of 40k.

GK- previously DHs - different story there.

 

I'm getting serious flashbacks to the early days of the Ork codex and the time when Nob bikers started to get popular... But I think that this has caused too much of a derail in this thread. Maybe we could split the related posts to their own thread if we are to take the discussion further?

 

There's always the odd man out who manages to do well with an underdog codex locally, may it be daemons, eldar, tau or something else. In fact I would argue that you are one of them, Morticon ;)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I love the discussion. Absolutely I do. I'm finally getting to solidify some personal mental turbulence about the Current State of Competitive 40k out of my head and into concrete thoughts.

So please, continue with those thoughts and comments. I will help derail my own thread for it. Well, not so much derail as provide supplementary commentary. Because I have a new series of articles I'm planning to write up, basically updates to the original OODA thread but I'll be detailing how each Principle of Warfare applies to 40k and for Blood Angels in particular. I was originally going to do the mini-series sooner but the new CSM codex was all shiny and distracted me ;) . Also, I didn't want to write the series before I had at least one 6th Ed Tournament under my belt before I spoke without actual experience. As it stands, Thanksgiving followed by three OODA writeups then Christmas stand between me and those eight mini-articles, so I may not get to them before January/February. But discussions like these are fueling my mental material, so please keep it up! Thanks Guys

So onward to Game 2 Overview!

Round 2 was Emperors Will on Dawn of War deployment set at exactly 6 turns. Round 2 is always interesting because you know both of you won in Round 1, but you don't know if you're paired with the future 1st Placer or if its a standard-level opponent who was matched with a newbie for their first game. For my Opponent, it looks like I drew Necrons! His list:

205: Overlord- Scythe, Mindshackles, 2+/3++, ResOrb

150: Lord- Scythe, Mindshackles, 2+/3++, ResOrb

170: 10 Immortals

170: 10 Immortals

260: 20 Warriors

260: 20 Warriors

60: 4 Scarabs

50: 1 Spyder

175: Doom Scythe

So at first glance, that's a lot a Infantry. I can see why he did well in round one, if he fought another shooty-opponent. Removing that much resiliency using only ranged attacks would be pretty hard. Unfortunately for him, I have his Nemesis list. Sweeping Advance is a House against foot-Necrons.

I won deployment zone choice, but he won First Turn and took it (I did not attempt to Sieze-- I wanted 2nd of course). No Red Thirst, and Runepriest got Prescience and Leech Life.

DEPLOYMENT PHOTO:

So you can see I opted for concentrated flank. Sadly, this game is over before it started. I'll give the highlights, but you can see I can jump all the way across the board without taking any damage at all since that big Skull-Altar is completely blocking LoS. The red-gem is my objective, and his Objective is directly behind the plinth-ruins (to the left of tiki hut in the photo).

• Necron Turn 1: No Night Fight.
  • All models move forwards towards midfield, except 1 Immortals sit on his Obj.
    
  • No shooting, everything out of range or LoS.
    

  [*]BA Turn 1:

  • GH-Pod lands in gap between skull-altar and my obj-plateau. GH disembark out of LoS.
    
  • Bikes zip behind rock-block to their forward right.
    
  • Everything moves forward out of LoS, but spread in circular patterns as much as possible to mitigate 'Line Damage' from the coming Doomscythe.
    

  [*]Necron Turn 2:

  • Doomscythe does not arrive.
    
  • Near-Necrons sit still, Far-Necrons move up again.
    
  • Scarabs move to their left flank.
    
  • Drop Pod survives shooting.
    

  [*]BA Turn 2:

  • Prescience on Black Squad fails (Perils).
    
  • Stormraven does not arrive.
    
  • Bikes turboboost behind 'roundtop' Ruins hiding from LoS
    
  • GHs move towards my Obj, hidden from LoS
    
  • Mephiston flies forward, lands 5" from his Objective-Immortals and assaults, kills 3, they pass Morale, 1 stands up.
    
  • Black Squad w/Priest jumps forward and lands 4" from 20-Warriors. Overwatch deals 4 wounds, they save all.
    
  • Black Squad kills 6 Warriors, none die in return. Crons fail morale, Sweeping Advance successful.
    

  [*]Necrons Turn 3:

  • Necron Lord passes Ever-Living and stands back up. Joins other 20 Warriors.
    
  • Doomscythe arrives, shoots Attack Bikes who pass all their 4+ Jink Saves. Take 1 wound from Tesla.
    
  • Scarabs move around the back of round-top ruins near Bikes but no LoS.
    
  • ~35+ Gauss shots at Black Squad. 7 ASM die leaving only Priest, Sarge, 2 MG and 1 ASM. Pass Morale.
    
  • Mephiston kills 3 Immortals, they pass Morale, 1 stands up.
    

  [*]BA Turn 3:

  • Prescience on survivors of Black Squad.
    
  • Stormraven arrives, blasts the Doomscythe to little bits. Wreckage wounds a bike.
    
  • Bikes move up and shoot Scarabs. Melta all fails, bolters deal 3 wounds.
    
  • Red Squad moves up, GH move back to my Obj.
    
  • Black Squad positions for shooting then charge on 20-Warriors
    
  • Black Squad shooting tanked by Lord. Overwatch kills 1 ASM.
    
  • In assault, MG-ASM damage tanked by Lord. Lord+Warriors kill only 2 MG. Just the Axe-Priest and Axe-Sarge remain. But they kill 5 Warriors (Lord cannot tank, not B2B). Morale Check at Ld7 failed, Sweeping Advance successful. 2 Men just killed 17 Crons.
    
  • Bikes charge Scarabs and deal 2 wounds, take none.
    
  • Mephiston kills 3 Immortals, they pass morale, none stand up.
    

  [*]Necron Turn 4:

  • Both Lords fail Ever-Living.
    
  • Spyder moves towards to engage Bikes.
    
  • Remaining 10 Immortals rapid-fire Priest and Black-Sarge. 6 wounds, all save/FnP.
    
  • Bikers deal 1 wound to Scarabs in melee, receive 1 wound.
    
  • Mephiston kills 3 Immortals, they fail morale and he Sweeping Advances.
    

  [*]BA Turn 4:

  • Prescience on Red Squad (still full strength).
    
  • Red Squad jumps 5" from remaining Immortals, and Priest joins them.
    
  • Stormraven kills several Immortals, Red Squad assaults and finishes them.
    

At this point the Opponent has 4 Scarabs and the Spyder left. He concedes, and I accept of course. We both know I was going to Table him since there was still 2 whole turns left.

So another win for Blood Angels and this time I've got full bonus points. Sadly, I didn't relish this win. The lists were a mis-match, not to mention I'm slightly confused about what he was trying to do. He saw where I put my objective first, then placed his directly across from mine. Yet he deployed first, knowing where the objectives were, but did not cover the main line of approach. 20 Warriors placed facing 'down the alley' where I was sure to advance would have seen me take much more damage on the moves in. I don't know though, I mean I'm not sure what I would have done if I were him. However, using the Doom Scythe to go after my bikes... is just weird. I guess he was excited about Strength 10 causing ID on them? I guess he didn't predict the Raven hammering it down? Either way, his solo flyer did nothing then died, so that hurt him even more.

As I said. I didn't relish beatin the guy so badly. The first game against Tyranids I didn't have any mercy because even just one of those Critters loose could have ended me. But versus a static Necron list like this, every advantage was mine. I didn't even use my Grey Hunters. They dropped in and babysat my objective, didn't shoot or do anything all game. Not bragging, but I beat him with 1280pts flat. Match-up was that bad, sadly.

I felt bad for the guy, but I was considerate and polite the whole time, offering supportive reactions when he got tough rolls. Not to be a fakey sportsman, but to honestly soften the hammer I knew I had him in.

[Deschenus Maximus]

That Batrep should be a good indicator as to why abandonning Mech wholesale, especially for armies that are very vulnerable to assault like Crons, is perhaps not such a great move...

[spartan249]

I don't see what Necrons can do without their own fixing and counter assault units. I think he was banking on resilience against shooting to do the work for him. Effective against those who knee jerked and went shooting only, but bound to fail when Local Superiority is achieved against him (which you did, that = death sentence for him).

[Sokhar]

Ewww. Yeah, that game is going to be lopsided under just about any circumstance, that's a terrible Necron list. Just hordes of infantry, no Annihilation Barges? Over 350 points spent on two Crons that think they became CC monsters? No allies. Bad, bad.

 

Makes me feel good to see that the list you're running is almost identical to the one I've been experimenting with in the 1750-1850 range. Wolves and Angels make a really nice tandem.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I think a lot of his problems were that that cron list won't do Emperor's Will well. Its too static. He needs to place his objectives close to yours if he wants to win, if he goes at the far end of the board its liable to be a tie at best, as you can leave some guys on your objective and send the rest off to take his. I do agree that he could have covered fire lanes better, though I reckon given the setup he couldn't have done it perfectly. Needed some guys on his far right flank (your left) to stop you cover-hugging that side of the board.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I don't see what Necrons can do without their own fixing and counter assault units.

Oh yea, big time. Wraiths can fix most Heavy Infantry but not much else efficiently. The problem is, I feel Necrons do have access to an excellent screen: Scarabs. So while Foot-Crons don't have any innate fixers or countercharge, they can screen quite well. Every extra turn you can make the opponent sit in Rapidfire distance, the better.

 

Ewww. Yeah, that game is going to be lopsided under just about any circumstance, that's a terrible Necron list. Just hordes of infantry, no Annihilation Barges? Over 350 points spent on two Crons that think they became CC monsters? No allies. Bad, bad.

I agree the list is grossly unoptimized. However, I feel AnniBarges are the wrong answer-- there's a potentially decent list hiding in there. The key would be just as you said- drop 150pts on unnecessary melee and survivability gear on the Overlord and Lord. Also, with 60 Infantry he was only using 4 Troops slots. If I were to optimize the theme of the list he was going for, it'd look like this:

 

Overlord: Scythe, Weave (115). 6 Units of 10 Immortals (6x170). 6 Scarabs (90). 2 Spyders (100). Doomscythe (175).

 

It still doesn't make it a good list in my estimation, mobility still being horrid. But at least "What its trying to do" (ie List theme) will Do It Better. Firepower is much more compartmentalized, also helping with receiving damage. Overall firepower is much higher, because now all that Gauss is Str5. Survivability is still high, because 3+/RP(5+) is fine in comparison to 4+/RP(4+). Scarabs screen-front, and Immortals can screen each other internally. Scarabs grow twice as fast, reaching 10 bases by Turn2 (aka mini-farm). Alternately drop both Spyders and take 6 more Scarabs for throwaway screening.

 

To be honest, a list like this might actually have an ok time versus Flamer/Screamer spam, if you're super careful and you do it just right (mission would be important too...). I wonder if that's what the guy was originally going for?

 

I think a lot of his problems were that that cron list won't do Emperor's Will well. Its too static. He needs to place his objectives close to yours if he wants to win, if he goes at the far end of the board its liable to be a tie at best, as you can leave some guys on your objective and send the rest off to take his. I do agree that he could have covered fire lanes better, though I reckon given the setup he couldn't have done it perfectly. Needed some guys on his far right flank (your left) to stop you cover-hugging that side of the board.

Well spotted, precisely what I was mentioning. The scarabs or a unit of Immortals (or both) should have set screen to protect his giant blocks of 20 Warriors. He sat both Immortals behind those 40 Warriors, rather than in front where they would have died from charges but would have prevented sweeping advances against his more valuable Warrior-blocks.

[dfer74]

This is the 5 flying demon player here glad I caught you since I had a good time talking with you at the tournament.

 

I have to say that I and my 4 friends just started playing 40k again just a month ago. Also, we had no idea what people would bring to the tournament. I do not think I had seen a single person there besides the two guys I knew before. I will have to agree with you about the bonus points were done poorly. Hopefully enough people will complain they will have their stuff figured out completly next time. The other thing is the demon player had 2 of his opponents quit turn 1 and recieved NO BONUS points which I do not agree with. I played him round 3 and tried the best I could against it but he had turn 1 advantage in relic and the only thing I could do is play for bonus points which were non-existent.

 

I will vouch that the Chaos 2 Helldrake (brian) player used the exact same list against me in my game with him that your friend got thrown up against. I hope that helps a little bit.

 

Had a great time talking with you and hopefully see each other around again.

 

My list

2x Bloodthirster with 2+ invulnerable against psychics and force weapons

 

3 x 5 Plaguebearers

 

2 x 5 Flamers

 

3 Nurgle Princes with flying

[Morticon]

Not sure people are suggesting either of those armies shouldnt be played. Theres just something about the literal brokenness that is the screamer/flamer spam combo. Personally I wont begrudge a player for playing it, but its not an enjoyable experience for me on any level - and more importantly it speaks volumes to how poorly designed the codex/units are if those codicies build themselves.

.

 

I'm getting serious flashbacks to the early days of the Ork codex and the time when Nob bikers started to get popular...

 

There's always the odd man out who manages to do well with an underdog codex locally, may it be daemons, eldar, tau or something else. In fact I would argue that you are one of them, Morticon ;)

 

For sure, bud! The most recent nationals here was a decent example- came up against a lot of that type of build (3 daemons players in 5 games).

I dont say these guys are unbeatable.

I dont believe any codex/list is. Not to rehash whats been said before but I feel this is more a vocalisation of the annoyance that for 1269 points, daemon players have access to 108 wounds with an inv save (or up to 4++ cover) that move either fast or freakin fast and can react to anything that is thrown at them. Throw in Fateweaver and you have serious issues.

 

 

To beat this list requires you to theme to beat it and not just take an all round balanced list. To win with this list requires you to show up. That, I think, is the gripe. Again, for the record, as is in my sig. I'll play it and I wont hold it against the player - but its unlikely to be fun for me. One thing is for certain though, more people need to theme to beat these guys and essentially change up the meta a bit.

 

I hope that will happen.

But, if the rumours are true, by Feb they will go the way of the dodo.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I will vouch that the Chaos 2 Helldrake (brian) player used the exact same list against me in my game with him that your friend got thrown up against. I hope that helps a little bit.

SO great to hear!

 

I feel bad about using the internet to pull a j'accuse. I feel much better knowing things were honest, thank you so much for assuring me.

 

There were just some hinky things about it, but I feel bad for my suspicious nature now.

 

I did write these sort of things down because I'm hoping other Tournament Organizers will read about my suspicions and include a List Turn-In. Even if they don't openly inspect each list and check them before every game (obviously not gonna happen due to time contraints lol), but rather it makes everyone feel better that if they really need to, they could go to the TO for list verification. Plus if anyone is quietly comtemplating a furtive list change-up, the will implicitly understand it can be found out.

 

Basically refers back to a military truism we use all the time: "Trust... but Verify"

 

And thanks for saying hi! My friends and I had a blast since it was their first tourny experience and we all can't wait to come back sometime! We won't make it for the Dec Tourny (plus... 2500pts w/Superheavy allowed? LOL), but potentially the January one looks promising.

[Ushtarador]

Good to hear that the chaos-guy was legit :lol:

 

plus... 2500pts w/Superheavy allowed?

 

LOL that sounds awesome! You should go and just pod as many meltaguns as possible, that would ruin some peoples day quite hard ;)

[knife&fork]

For sure, bud! The most recent nationals here was a decent example- came up against a lot of that type of build (3 daemons players in 5 games).

I dont say these guys are unbeatable.

I dont believe any codex/list is. Not to rehash whats been said before but I feel this is more a vocalisation of the annoyance that for 1269 points, daemon players have access to 108 wounds with an inv save (or up to 4++ cover) that move either fast or freakin fast and can react to anything that is thrown at them. Throw in Fateweaver and you have serious issues.

 

 

To beat this list requires you to theme to beat it and not just take an all round balanced list. To win with this list requires you to show up. That, I think, is the gripe. Again, for the record, as is in my sig. I'll play it and I wont hold it against the player - but its unlikely to be fun for me. One thing is for certain though, more people need to theme to beat these guys and essentially change up the meta a bit.

 

I hope that will happen.

But, if the rumours are true, by Feb they will go the way of the dodo.

 

Yeah, there's no question GW is bad at codex balance and playtesting, and it's ok to vent. We all need to do that sometimes. I just can't stand when the venting turns into defeatism.

 

Daemons are currently in a good position simply because they are not another PA army. MEQ makes up the bulk of the armies most people face and demeching/killing things with 3+ saves is the golden standard for effectiveness. So when something like Screamer/Flamer Daemons, Leafblower guard, Nob bikers or Seer council comes along it throws a wrench in peoples plans simply because it's not MEQ.

If you want to play in a competitive environment and you expect to face daemons in the top then a balanced list must be able to deal with them. You might have to think outside of the box and compromise in other aspects of your army. If it's worth it or not depends on how much impact daemon armies have on your tourney result.

 

Soft or hard bans is probably the worst thing you do though, because then you won't learn anything. I see that a lot in Sweden where many tournaments are comped. As a result people who really should know better, being experience players, don't have a clue how to handle deathstars/semi deathstars and powerful, optimized lists.

I was a TO earlier this year before 6th dropped and saw a very good example of this. One SW player had brought a unit on TWC. Nothing extreme or out of the ordinary, 4 guys with a storm shield and lord I think. Some mixed equipment. This unit just tore through everything, nobody knew what to do about it. A lot of the people reading this forum knows that there are plenty of ways to deal with them, particularly in 5t. For instance, nobody tried to break them up with a tankshock and assault individual models. We had plenty of multi storey ruins (cavalry couldn't climb in 5th), no one used those either. I saw plenty of opportunities like this when I walked around the tables. (didn't say anything of course)

It seemed like just about every player had decided that they were just too good and there was nothing they could do about it except damage control.

 

(The wall of text above isn't aimed at you personally Mort, just arguing a point about crying for bans and restrictions when faced with something that gives you a lot of trouble)

[ianj253]

Jervis Johnson wrote an article in the November WD about comp and it was a good read. To sum it up he said comp isn't a bad thing and he usually includes it when he's a TO. However, he also doesn't think every tournament needs comp and should vary their rules. This way players can find a tournament that suits them. I'm not biased towards a side on comp, but thought what he had to say was pretty good.

[Morticon]

If you want to play in a competitive environment and you expect to face daemons in the top then a balanced list must be able to deal with them. You might have to think outside of the box and compromise in other aspects of your army. If it's worth it or not depends on how much impact daemon armies have on your tourney result.

 

It seemed like just about every player had decided that they were just too good and there was nothing they could do about it except damage control.

 

These two highlighted points are super important I feel.

I now have a daemon ready BA tourney list and a regular list, depending on whether or not the main Daemon player in our province is playing. The thing is that I dont believe a "balanced" list can deal with them. It must be themed to beat in order to remain competitive with them.

 

I also think " too good" is not in relation to their one on one interaction and not in relation to their player vs player experience, but rather their entire tourney capability. Those units when spammed can take out almost any army in the game and have possibly the fewest nemesis army lists. Unit for unit there is little they can deal with.

 

Thats where the frustration is.

40k should ideally be balanced in a way where taking a certain build makes you stronger against most armies but weaker against others, and the finding the balance is where the skill comes in. This is not the case here. If you have units in a list that just destroy 95% of the units in the game, theres an imbalance.

 

Acknowledging and highlighting weaknesses/strengths and problem areas (and the inherent gripes that accompany it) are par for the course I feel and not about defeatism as much as discussion and dissection.

 

 

(The wall of text above isn't aimed at you personally Mort, just arguing a point about crying for bans and restrictions when faced with something that gives you a lot of trouble)

 

 

For sure! Yeah, once again as in the sig, id never even consider a ban on a unit/dex that was legit. So didnt think it was aimed at me :) :P

[CitadelArmyGuy]

All right sportsfans, here we go for Game 3.

At this point in the Tourny there are 5 Players with double-wins. At least, that's what I remember but I could be wrong because they weren't posting updates and so all I had to go by was word-of-mouth between rounds. But math says Round 1 had at most 10 Winners, who then played each other in Round 2-- meaning there would be at very most 5 undefeated players going in to Round 3.

5 Undefeateds means the Top-2 would play each other (ie the ones with the most bonus points) followed by the next 2. Then the Undefeated with the lowest number of bonus points would play someone who had already lost. At least, this is how I assume it went. The TOs did not post a bracket or explain how they determined their matchups.

At any point, I know I was matched against a fellow Undefeated player. So from what I could piece together, this meant I was either on the Top Table or 2nd-up.

Either way, I was pretty excited, especially when I met my final opponent. His list:

105: Chaos Lord- Mark of Nurgle, Power Sword, Gift of Mutation (Received Hammer of Wrath)

133: 5 Chaos Marines- Mark of Nurgle, 4 CCW, 4 Bolters, 1 Meltagun, Power Maul, Gift of Mutation (Received Re-roll Failed Armor Saves)

45: Rhino- Dirge Caster, Warpflame Gargoyles

155: 5 Plague Marines- 1 Meltagun, Power Sword, Gift of Mutation (Received Enemy B2B receive Str4 AP5 hit at I1)

40: Rhino- Dirge Caster

155: 5 Plague Marines- 1 Meltagun, Power Sword, Gift of Mutation (Received Feel No Pain)

40: Rhino- Dirge Caster

155: 5 Plague Marines- 1 Meltagun, Power Sword, Gift of Mutation (Received Poisoned Melee Attacks)

40: Rhino- Dirge Caster

228: 3 Obliterators- Mark of Nurgle

228: 3 Obliterators- Mark of Nurgle

228: 3 Obliterators- Mark of Nurgle

Super Happy! It's not Flamer-Screamer Spam! Haha I bet you guys thought with all my dark comments about 'The 27' so far would have meant I faced them and got beaten. Well, fortunately not the case! This game was actually much, much darker... I'll get to that in a minute.

But first, I have to draw attention to something. My opponent for Round 3 was a great guy, a middle-aged dude who had former military service and was great buddies with the TOs themselves. I know he was completely well intentioned, and absolutely didn't mean to cheat.

But unfortunately he did cheat. His list was hand-written, laid underneath plastic-sheets so he could use dry-erase markers to notate his Chaos Boons. However, his list total is 1552 pts.

Again, his list was hand-written. I could not understand his handwriting, so he talked me through his whole list and wargear. I have not made a mistake in re-listing what gear he took. Not only do I remember everything he said, every piece of wargear and ability on that list was used in the game. I'm sure he didn't mean to, but 52pts over the limit is not a small amount.

The fact he was on a Top Table meant that I assumed his list was good to go. That he could play all day without anyone catching it didn't even cross my mind. In fact, I did not discover he was over-points until I got home and started writing up the Battle Report. Replicating his list in Army Builder alerted me to the fact of what happened.

All that being said, I can beat this list. I have to tools to do it, and Mephiston is looking great versus all his Troops and will be looking to clean-house.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Game 3: The Relic with Dawn of War Deployment set at exactly 6 Turns.

Black Squad got Red Thirst. Runepriest received Prescience and........ Haemorrhage. Sigh, that's the only Biomancy power I didn't need versus this particular Nurgle list (although Warp Speed would be fairly meh as well). This will be a recurring theme I'm afraid.

Opponent won both the roll-off for Deployment Zone and First Turn which he takes, naturally. No Night Fight again...in fact, I never saw Night Fight the entire Tournament.

In my excitement, I forgot a Deployment Photo. Instead, here is a photo of the very Top of Turn 2, immediately after the DeepStrike of reserved Obliterators:

For Deployment, He reserved (Deep Strike) one Unit of Oblits. His 4 Rhinos deployed line-abreast center, with one unit of Oblits on each Flank. I also deploy line-abreast center, with Mephiston on the second floor of those mini-ruins. I won't go into why I did what I did... that'll be saved for the OODA thread.

• Nurgle Turn 1: BA fail to Seize the Initiative.
  • Black Rhino (PMs) pushes 12" forward, Red Rhino (PMs) immobs on area terrain so Plagues disembark into the terrain, White Rhino moves 6" laterally then Plagues w/Lord disembark 6" forward, and the Grey Rhino (CSMs) moves forward 6".
    
  • All Rhinos smoke
    
  • 6 Oblit Lascannons target Mephiston, but Cover+FnP = no wounds taken.
    

  [*]BA Turn 1:

  • Prescience on Attack Bikes
    
  • GH-Pod drops in front of right-flank Oblits. I almost placed them dead-in front of Grey Rhino... the pod was on the table, the scatter dice in my hand... then I moved it to where it's pictured. Lands no-scatter, GH disembark as pictured.
    
  • Mephiston flies forward, 1" from Black Rhino. Attackbikes move up 3" from Black Rhino. ASM general advance as pictured.
    
  • GH shooting deals 3 AP2 wounds and 5 AP- wounds to Oblits. Invulns failed but all 2+ saved. (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 5/5)
    
  • 3 Prescienced Multimelta and 4 Meltaguns leave Black Rhino shaken, stunned and 1 HP left. :)
    
  • Mephiston, denied charging contents of Black Rhino, charges 8" into the Chaos Lord's Plagues (behind Pod in photo). Takes a wound from Overwatch melta. Kills Champion no sweat. Lord and 4 Plagues left.
    
  • Attackbikes charge Black Rhino and use Krak Grenades to knock the final HP. First Blood. Plagues disembark as pictured.
    

  [*]Nurgle Turn 2:

  • Deep Strike Oblits arrive, land as pictured.
    
  • CSM disembark from Grey Rhino 6" forward. Plagues in terrain move towards GH. Grey and White Rhinos retrograde.
    
  • 8 Oblits shooting kills 5 ASM from Black Squad and 5 GH.
    
  • CSM and Center-Plagues rapid-fire Black Squad, 1 MG dies. 4 Remain, no morale check (Fearless from Red Thirst).
    
  • Right-Plagues throw Krak grenade at Pod... no result.
    
  • Right-Plagues call disordered charge onto Grey Hunters and Pod. He said no Overwatch bc Dirge Caster on Black Rhino, but I remind him its dead. Overwatch does nothing. Right-Oblits charge Grey Hunters. GH fail Counter-attack. GH use Banner and deal 3 wounds onto Oblits but all save (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 8/8). Plagues kraks do nothing to Pod, but kill Axe-GH before he can swing. Oblits slay all remaining GH. Plagues consolidate forward, Oblits retrograde.
    
  • Mephiston easily smokes the Chaos Lord in challenge. 4 Plagues remain.
    

  [*]BA Turn 2:

  • Prescience on Red Squad.
    
  • Raven arrives, lines up to shoot Right-Oblits.
    
  • Attack Bikes zip 12" directly to right-flank, also to shoot Right-Oblits and screen Right-Plagues
    
  • Red and Black Squads walk forward to prep charges.
    
  • Black Squad shoots CSM (1 MG, 3 Pistol) but no kills
    
  • Red Squad shoots Center-Plagues (Prescience 2 MG, 10 Pistol)... 1 kill.
    
  • Raven shoots Right Oblits, deals 3 AP2 wounds and 4 AP- wounds. They fail 2 Inv and 1 Armor (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 11/12). Right-Oblits are dead.
    
  • Attackbikes switch targets to Right-Plagues. 3 MM and 3 TLBolters kill 2 Plagues.
    
  • Bikes charge 3 remaining Right-Plagues to Fix. Hammer of Wrath and all attacks fail to kill anything. Receive no wounds.
    
  • Black Squad charges CSM. My Axe-Sarge kills Maul-Champ. No other wounds dealt or received for either side. Pass morale. 4 ASM vs 4 CSM remain.
    
  • Red Squad charges Center-Plagues. My naked Sarge dies from Icy Aura of Sword-Champ. Red Squad takes no other damage, but only kills 1 Plague! My rolls to-wound were absolutely abysmal. Tie combat. Both Priests and 9 ASM vs 3 Plagues remain.
    
  • Mephiston only kills two Plagues, even with all Powers active. :P 2 Plagues remain.
    

  [*]Nurgle Turn 3:

  • Grey & White Rhinos continue retrograde.
    
  • Left-Oblits walk towards Mephiston's melee, ending 4" away. Sigh...
    
  • Rear-Oblits shoot 3 Lascannons at Stormraven, 1 hits but fails penetrate (I did not Evade).
    
  • In melee: Black Squad kills 1 CSM, 1 ASM dies. 3 ASM vs 3 CSM remain.
    
  • Red Squad make no kills ;) , Runepriest receives 1 wound in challenge vs Sword-Champ. 2 Priests and 9 ASM versus 3 Plagues remain. I pass morale.
    
  • Attackbikes receive 1 wound, kill one Plague. 3 Bikes vs 2 Plagues remain.
    
  • Oblits charge Mephiston. Meph deals 5 wounds onto Oblits, they save all (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 16/17). 9 Powerfist attacks deal 3 wounds. Meph has 1 wound remaining... and passes Ld7 check. Wish he could have failed in order to escape...
    

  [*]BA Turn 3:

  • Prescience on Red Squad.
    
  • Raven targets Rear-Oblits (literally the only Unit not in melee). Raven deals 4 wounds at AP2 and 5 wounds at AP- but the Oblits save all of them :pinch: (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 21/22)
    
  • Onto melee: Mephiston deals 4 wounds onto Oblits. They save all (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 25/26) and kill Mephiston. Oblits consolidate towards Red Squad melee, 2 Plagues consolidate towards Black Squad.
    
  • Black Squad kills 1 CSM, receive no damage. CSM fail Ld7 check (Opponent needed to reference their Ld to make sure an '8' was a fail), sweeping advance successful. 3 ASM in Black Squad remain.
    
  • Red Squad makes no kills again :pinch: . Runepriest kills Champ in challenge. 2 Priest and 9 ASM vs 2 Plagues remain.
    
  • Bikes and Right-Plagues deal no damage. 3 Bikes vs 2 Plagues remain.
    

  [*]Nurgle Turn 4:

  • Left-Oblits move towards Red Squad melee, end 3" away...
    
  • Rhinos move forward. 2 Plagues move towards 3 Black Squad.
    
  • Rear-Oblits fire on Raven with TL-meltaguns, no hits.
    
  • Oblits charge into melee. Pile-in give me 7 ASM and Axe-Priest hitting Oblits. Runepriest and 2 ASM must attack 2 Plagues. I kill no Plagues. I deal 4 wounds at AP- onto Oblits, they pass all (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 29/30). Oblits 9 powerfist attacks kill 5 ASM. I fail morale, escape Sweeping Advance, and fallback 13".
    
  • 2 Plagues charge Black Squad and kill 2 ASM, I kill none. 2 Plagues vs Axe-Sarge left.
    
  • 3 Bikers kill remaining 2 Plagues (yay some luck! lol...) and consolidate towards Rear-Oblits.
    

  [*]BA Turn 4: (I'm on Tilt. Situation grim, my decision making is severely deteriorated. Worst thing is, I know I'm on tilt and don't care)

  • Prescience on Red Squad survivors (RP, SP, 1 MG, 3 ASM)
    
  • Red Squad auto-rallies, moves on foot at point-blank range on Rear-Oblits.
    
  • Attackbikes (5 wounds left) move to point-blank range on Rear-Oblits.
    
  • Raven hovers, remains in Rapidfire range of Rear-Oblits.
    
  • Red Squad fires 5 Pistol and 1 MG at Oblits, all fail wound. MM Attackbikes fire 3 MM and 3 TLbolter, deal 2 AP2 and 2 AP- wounds. All save :pinch: . Raven deals 2 AP2 and 4 AP- wounds onto Oblits. Fail one Inv. (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 35/36).
    
  • Red Squad and Attackbikes charge. 9 Hammer of Wraths fail to wound. Axe-Priest fails to wound. Everyone else deals 5 AP- wounds, Oblits FAIL ONE! YAAAAYYY (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 39/41). Oblits wipe out Red Squad and Runepriest. Axe-Priest and 3 Attackbikes vs 3 Oblits (two wounded) remain. I pass a Ld4 check, gratefully.
    
  • 2 Plagues kill Axe-Sarge before he swings. Black Squad dead.
    

  [*]Nurgle Turn 5:

  • A Plague picks up The Relic. 4 Plagues are alive, two Units of 2, in the center.
    
  • Oblits not in melee fire 3 Lascannon at hovering Raven. 1 Pen 2 Glance but Jink blocks the Pen. 1 HP left.
    
  • In melee, Attackbikes deal no wounds but Axe-SangPriest deals 1 Wound! Oblit saves with Invuln. Oblit kills Priest, one attackbike takes a wound. 3 Attackbikes (4 wounds) remain vs 3 Oblits (4 wounds). I pass Ld6 sadly.
    

  [*]BA Turn 5:

  • Raven hovers (Zooming would take me out of arc). Shoots Plagues. 1 Dies, man holding Relic is out of LoS behind Rhino-wreck. Should have asked who was holding Relic.
    
  • In melee, Attackbikes deal 2 wounds, Oblits save both (Running Total of 2+ Saves: 41/43). Oblits make only 1 hit, a bike dies. I pass Ld7. 2 Bikes (3 wounds) remain vs 3 Oblits (4 wounds).
    

  [*]Nurgle Turn 6:

  • Oblits shoot and kill Raven.
    
  • In melee, Bikes deal no wounds. Oblits only deal 2 wounds. Remaining Bike with 1 wound fails Ld6 check, and Falls Back 12" but still on the board.
    

  [*]BA Turn 6:

  • MM Attack Bike rallies 3", then scoots 12". He can see the one Plague Marine holding the Relic. One man left in the unit, and no cover save. The MM hits and wounds........... he passes 5+ FnP.
    

Its all over. Major Loss for Blood Angels.

I have an Attack Bike and a Drop Pod still alive. He has 6 Obliterators and 3 Plague Marines, one with The Relic of course.

I can't make this up guys. By the end of the game, I was.... idk what I was. Certainly not calm, that's for sure. Which I really hate. I pride myself on self-control. But... this was just too much to take.

Running Total of 2+ Saves: 41/43. Enough Said. I do not think he had funny-dice. I really don't. He was the complete opposite of the type of person who'd seem like they would cheat.

I think the final thing was when I got home several hours later and found out he was over-points. My wife seriously had to calm me down after that.

[Ushtarador]

ouch, at least I don't think the over-points were the reason for your loss there.. I like how you didn't manage to even open that rhino with all your melta :huh:

looks just like one of those games where nothing goes as planned, mephi chews 3 rounds on 2 guys and then dies to overwatch, you couldn't even kill a tau in cc and your opponent saves absolutely everything as well.

 

It's hard to be on the receiving end of this, especially at a tournament, can't do much about it.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Ouch. We've all had those games which cause us to consider what one player did to offend the dice gods so thoroughly... I think that rather than take to heart the negatives and the bad luck, you should focus on the positives - despite all the bad luck and dice you suffered, it was still very nearly a win/tie (dependent on whether those oblits were still in your DZ and whether that attack bike was in his; I can't really tell from the writing).

 

Couple of questions though - first off, when he snagged the relic - why not plough the raven into them then? From the sound of things, at least one squad was unengaged. Secondly - rune priest's psychic powers. Since haemhorrage is poop versus Nurgle, why not swap it for Smite? Definitely handier for offing oblits; I'd be chasing all the AP2 I can get my hands on. Thirdly - why not just jump on the relic your T1 (all your scoring units can reach it)? First Blood and Warlord are easy propositions for you (Mephy will kick that chaos lord all over the shop, and he has a buttload of rhinos). If you pick up the relic on T1, it'll be his T3 before he can snag it himself (given you can only get it in the movement phase) and if he makes you drop it you'll always have the first opportunity at picking it back up barring beating you in combat on your own turn, you breaking, and fleeing more than 6" - sure, keeping it might be tricky, but you can at least deny it and try to win with secondaries.

[knife&fork]

I now have a daemon ready BA tourney list and a regular list, depending on whether or not the main Daemon player in our province is playing. The thing is that I dont believe a "balanced" list can deal with them. It must be themed to beat in order to remain competitive with them.

 

I also think " too good" is not in relation to their one on one interaction and not in relation to their player vs player experience, but rather their entire tourney capability. Those units when spammed can take out almost any army in the game and have possibly the fewest nemesis army lists. Unit for unit there is little they can deal with.

 

I think that a lot of frustrations comes from the fact that Daemons work a bit differently. There is no simple tweak or adjustment you can make to get a good result. If daemons are a major concern maybe we should start from scratch and build an anti sceramer/flamer list that we feel comfortable with, then we can look for tweaks and adjustment to make it more effective against the rest of the opposition.

 

The screamer/flamer combo (+Kairos) has a definite synergy, because none of the units are unbeatable by themselves and they all have major weaknesses. Break that synergy, attack the weak points and you will win.

[DominicJ]

Dice suck.

 

I can honestly say I have had better and worse.

 

At one point, I switched to Vampire Counts, because it didnt require rolling dice, I could win without making any successful rolls.........

I had a game recently where I passed every armour save, all of them.......

 

 

 

 

It really is awful when you know something is the wrong thing to do, but you do it anyway.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Dice suck.

 

I can honestly say I have had better and worse.

 

At one point, I switched to Vampire Counts, because it didnt require rolling dice, I could win without making any successful rolls.........

I had a game recently where I passed every armour save, all of them.......

 

 

 

 

It really is awful when you know something is the wrong thing to do, but you do it anyway.

 

I've used the same logic - you can't roll poorly for armour saves when you don't have an armour save! Orks like this as well with their t-shirts... Problem is I've found that it makes my dice more likely to suck in other aspects. Except Tomb Kings archers... my luck with those is frankly terrifying (always have a 33% chance of a hit, I regularly get upwards of 50%).

[spartan249]

Wow... that guy reminds me of my friend. Laid back, military service, chaos, loves oblits and marines in rhinos, and rolls like a god. A lot of unaccounted-for hair on his account... at least he taught me the virtues of a 5+ save, I guess lol.

 

52 points is a bit of an advantage, must admit. Those oblits might have lost MoN, resulting in a lot less of them.

 

At least you weren't under 230 points. Tourneys with no list turn-in...

[Jolemai]

I've done similar. In my last game (a report of which is on my blog should anyone be bored enough) I couldn't stop rolling 5+ saves, much to the delight of my opponent...

 

If you could replay that last game, what would you have done different? Or do I have to wait until your OODA report in February? ;)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

@Chaplain Admetus and Jolemai

 

I lost because I was on tilt. Can you believe that? The game was mine to win.

 

Turn 5, the Raven should have left the table. Turn 6, it would have unloaded onto the 2 Plagues with the Relic with TLAC/TLMM/both Hurricane Bolters (Mathammer says that would deal 5.96 wounds onto T5... of course with the way he was making saves.... ugh) If I killed them both, and I would have won by First Blood.

 

Oh the dangers of tilt. Literally, I beat Myself. If I had have remained calm, I probably would have still won despite his massive good luck combined with my massive misfortunes.

 

... at least deny it and try to win with secondaries.

Yes, precisely this. His Oblits did deepstrike into my DZ, but moved out of it when my Raven hovered because he took the bait and moved towards it. He didn't remember to make the charge to powerfist it though. Didn't mention that bit.... Because he actually made a lot of mistakes, or at least what I would call mistakes. I feel I made very very few mistakes before I went on tilt and abandoned what I was doing. Its so easy and clinical to diagnose why I lost due to tilt, but at the time...

 

Honestly our game was played ahead of the clock. My games always are, I was the second table finished in Round1 and the first table finished in Round 2. I had plenty of time on the clock... I probably should have taken a bathroom break or just a retrospective walk around the shop to re-achieve my focus.

 

It was my first Tourny in more than 9 months. It was my first Tourny in 6th Ed. It was the first Tourny I was doing battle-reports on and sharing on the Internet.

 

I wanted it too badly. That is where I failed. I let it get emotional.

[EzekyleVIII]

As the wolves say: I recognise my failing, I will be sure to correct it.

Theres always another tourney!