AAR for Local Tournament (17 NOV)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The screamer/flamer combo (+Kairos) has a definite synergy, because none of the units are unbeatable by themselves and they all have major weaknesses. Break that synergy, attack the weak points and you will win.

I contend that they don't have synergy at all. Of course, it just may be the wrong word you're looking for. Synergy means the sum of the whole is greater than the parts, that on their own the parts are fairly weak.

 

This is the core problem with the 27/27. There is no synergy other than overwhelming numbers. Every single Unit is powerful all by itself. Not only that, but every single Model within each Unit is powerful by itself. They do not suffer mobility issues. They do not suffer morale issues. They don't suffer from combat power being tied to Unit Leaders/Characters. All models are equipped identically, so directional fire actually decreases the damage you do. They don't suffer from overcost and can easily play at any points-level. They completely ignore about 1/2 of the core rules. Every single model. There isn't synergy beyond the fact that there's 108 wounds of them, and if you don't stop them all they will break you.

 

Also, they do not have major weaknesses. I'm not sure how you could say that with a straight face (not to get personal on you k&f, I value your opinion and you are a solid voice of reason here on the forums). They each share 1 weakness, and each have 1 more unique weakness. None of which are major weaknesses. The shared weakness is T4 5++. Flamers are weak in combat (if you can survive Overwatch) and Screamers have no shooting attack. Thats it from my perspective, although I'm sure we can go back and forth on the particulars.

 

I agree with you k&f that they do not merit a ban of any form, yet. And your comment about bans leading to players who don't know how to handle quote 'OP' units is really spot on-- the anecdote about Thunderwolf Cav being very pertinent.

 

However, this is not simply a case of "it ain't MEQ so people can't handle it." This is the first case where there is significant divergence from all potential ability to beat them and also beat all-comers existent in the meta at the same time as the OP unit(s) in question.

 

You cannot make a list which will beat both Flamers-Screamers spam and Necron Flyer spam. Not with Blood Angels at least. Not with 12 of the 16 Codicies. GK, IG, Necrons and other Daemons have a chance to beat Flamer-Screamer and still have all-comer ability.

 

I'm fortunate, I have a large IG army. Doesn't mean I'm happy about shelving my BA until the situation resolves itself.

[DominicJ]

People are scared of thunderwolves?

Really?

 

I fed them a tactical squad and the counter charged with Tactical Terminators, splat.

 

Luck on my part perhaps

[Chaplain Admetus]

Better to know where you went wrong than not. Its like that with all things in life - academia, relationships, and this enjoyable yet oft-frustrating game of ours. I know its hard, but try to stop beating yourself up over it. You lost because you were on-tilt, don't go on tilt about having been on tilt (vicious circle, incoming). Over-excitement and frustration can lead to a pretty hard fall, and they're both at opposite ends of the same scale, and the same results. I've learned this from, of all things, competitive pool play. I used to be very fast and aggressive (probably hence the Blood Angels), but knowing when to slow down and take it easy improved so much - especially when you're either far behind and all seems hopeless, or if you're looking at an easily won position, where one slip suddenly starts to snowball and before you know it you've lost.

 

Also, here's one for you to try if you're so minded: photos for battle reports. They do actually serve a greater purpose. If you stop at the end of every game turn to take a picture, you're taking that 2 minute break to get your mind off of things and you can use that to net a bit of thinking space. It did wonders for me in the batrep thread.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Also, here's one for you to try if you're so minded: photos for battle reports. They do actually serve a greater purpose. If you stop at the end of every game turn to take a picture, you're taking that 2 minute break to get your mind off of things and you can use that to net a bit of thinking space. It did wonders for me in the batrep thread.

This is awesome. Absolutely great advice man, thanks! I knew I'd be doing just one photo then recreating by Vassal, but I never thought to take pics anyway as a way to remain objective and regain perspective. A+ idea, I'll be sharing that with others but I'll credit you for sure.

 

It's funny about the tilt because it's so uncharacteristic of me. My friends tell me when I play 40k I look like I'm playing Poker, I don't give anything away. Funny because I love me some Texas Holdem poker as well, and my strategies in poker are very rock-like with tight play and extreme patience.

 

The bad thing about having ironclad stoic disposition 95% of the time is that when you do get tilt that last 5% of the time, you don't know how to handle it. Which is what happened to me haha.

 

I'm not beating myself up about it, not anymore. Totally gotta chalk it up to learning, which is awesome! I love that I still have things to learn.

[spartan249]

Kind of funny, I'm the direct opposite. When I'm not under pressure, I make sloppy mistakes and gloss over stupid stuff that puts me in tight spots more often then not. When the pressure's on and it's starting to look grim for me, I get in the zone and play my A game. I hear from observers that I look like I'm plotting to kill someone when I get in the zone (Who knows, maybe I am... >D).

 

Oh well. Hopefully, this sort of thing doesn't happen to you in any sort of real combat situation. In this situation, not much lost.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Oh well. Hopefully, this sort of thing doesn't happen to you in any sort of real combat situation. In this situation, not much lost.

HAHA made me lol. Fortunately not, I've been under fire IRL and I don't lose my head. But also, I'm not a dedicated combat-dude, my specialization is Battle Staff and Operational Planning.

[knife&fork]

There isn't synergy beyond the fact that there's 108 wounds of them, and if you don't stop them all they will break you.

 

Also, they do not have major weaknesses. I'm not sure how you could say that with a straight face (not to get personal on you k&f, I value your opinion and you are a solid voice of reason here on the forums). They each share 1 weakness, and each have 1 more unique weakness. None of which are major weaknesses. The shared weakness is T4 5++. Flamers are weak in combat (if you can survive Overwatch) and Screamers have no shooting attack. Thats it from my perspective, although I'm sure we can go back and forth on the particulars.

 

There is synergy, if you only had to worry about one of these units at a time countering them would be much more straight forward. Screams and flamers compliment each other, covering for the the relative shortcomings they have dealing with some units.

The flamers for instance are near useless once locked in combat. But that would put you in a really bad situation if you get countercharged by the screamers. The screamers on the other hand often need to trade their assault capability for extra movement, slash attacks and cover with the turboboost. Anything the screamers can't handle when boosting the flamers can take care of.

 

The most important shared weakness apart from T4 5++ is daemonic assault. I played DS heavy lists almost exclusively in 5th and I play pods now. There are many problems you can face when someone knows how to disrupt your deployment. Daemonic assault also means never having to worry about everything at once.

 

You cannot make a list which will beat both Flamers-Screamers spam and Necron Flyer spam. Not with Blood Angels at least.

 

With allies I think it's possible. And allies are already an important part if you want to build a good all comers list. Mobility and forcing a lot of saves is obviously going to help against daemons and that's generally something very useful to have against any opponent.

 

What do you consider to be an effective necron flyer spam list? I've seen quite a few variations. Just want to make it clear so we're not arguing different things.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

What do you consider to be an effective necron flyer spam list? I've seen quite a few variations. Just want to make it clear so we're not arguing different things.

Well obviously I have null-experiece building one of those lists myself. However, variants which I would find personally hard to beat have certain must-includes.

 

Both Zahndrekh and an ADL with Comms Relay are must haves, for obvious reasons. I would also say 2:3 Doomscythe-to-Nightscythe ratio would be about optimal. A unit for Zahndrekh to join and give Stealth for hiding on the ADL (scoring and comms relay operation). Depending on the points-level, the rest of the filler would probably be Allies of some form.

 

Max spammed Flyers wouldn't be optimal, probably just higher than average (for any given points level) combo'ed with cheap but hard to kill ground presence.

 

Why, what are you thinking?

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Also, for the tourny I forgot to mention I ended up taking 4th place Overall. My last-game opponent (with the 1552pt list) ended up taking 1st place. If I had managed a Win on Game 3 then I would have taken 2nd Place Overall. Just the vagaries of wonky bonus-points. If they had awarded full bonus-points for a Tabling Win then I would have placed much higher of course, but then my Game 2 opponent would have been a much harder game so there's really no telling what would have happened.

 

Which makes an interesting point-- is there any merit in meta-gaming a Tournament's Bonus Points system in order to draw lesser Opponent in following rounds? Obviously it could backfire terribly, but if your list isn't First Place Overall material anyway (say in a GT) then are there times where you'd purposefully pull a punch and not snag as many Bonus Points as you could?

[ianj253]

What do you consider to be an effective necron flyer spam list? I've seen quite a few variations. Just want to make it clear so we're not arguing different things.

Well obviously I have null-experiece building one of those lists myself. However, variants which I would find personally hard to beat have certain must-includes.

 

Both Zahndrekh and an ADL with Comms Relay are must haves, for obvious reasons. I would also say 2:3 Doomscythe-to-Nightscythe ratio would be about optimal. A unit for Zahndrekh to join and give Stealth for hiding on the ADL (scoring and comms relay operation). Depending on the points-level, the rest of the filler would probably be Allies of some form.

 

Max spammed Flyers wouldn't be optimal, probably just higher than average (for any given points level) combo'ed with cheap but hard to kill ground presence.

 

Why, what are you thinking?

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Also, for the tourny I forgot to mention I ended up taking 4th place Overall. My last-game opponent (with the 1552pt list) ended up taking 1st place. If I had managed a Win on Game 3 then I would have taken 2nd Place Overall. Just the vagaries of wonky bonus-points. If they had awarded full bonus-points for a Tabling Win then I would have placed much higher of course, but then my Game 2 opponent would have been a much harder game so there's really no telling what would have happened.

 

Which makes an interesting point-- is there any merit in meta-gaming a Tournament's Bonus Points system in order to draw lesser Opponent in following rounds? Obviously it could backfire terribly, but if your list isn't First Place Overall material anyway (say in a GT) then are there times where you'd purposefully pull a punch and not snag as many Bonus Points as you could?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbSWdzezRTA&feature=plcp

 

Fritz, talks about not taking max points first game in that video. He recommends going for 70-80% I believe, this way you get to play an opponent your better than.

[dfer74]

I think it depends on the tournament honestly.

 

I local tourney that throws random bonus points that you can not plan for is hard to deal with.

 

GT's usually also have a composition system and sportsmanship category. Where you can get chipmunked because somone does not like the fact you play Salamanders in 3rd edition with -1 I or all your vehicles have 1 pt searchlight options. So you control what you can control how you play the game. The best thing you can do is just play your best and get everything you can. I personally do not like random bonus points that someone throws in the middle of a tournament (if you have a fortification you can 1 bonus point what?)

 

My greatest story is game 5 at a Seattle GT I roll up with Space wolves versus guard. MY opponent says "My friend is playing for overall and your in her way I can giving you a 1 for sports and comp no hard feelings. " Then proceeded to mark it down so I called a judge over and the guy told the story he told me verbatim to the judge. Nothing happened. I proceeded to table him and get as many points as possible to do what I could. Yeah, second place best general for that was very sour grapes. That is how people are and nothing you can do about it.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

WHEEEEWWW Ok that took entirely too long, far longer than I anticipated.

 

GAME ONE is posted in the Battle Reports subforum! Link: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=0#entry3249220

 

I hope everyone enjoys-- I've tried my best to make these the absolute definition of excellence in Battle Reporting. Took me several hours spread over the course of a few days just working on Game 1's report. I feel now that I've got my format down (and more comfort with VASSAL), I can get Games 2 and 3 up much quicker than that.

[Sokhar]

Crikey. Most battle reports are little more than some photos and a couple sentences summarizing the game. That's more like a textbook. I haven't read through it yet, but I approve. Love an easy to follow report (I think Kirby from 3++ usually does a really good job with his), so I'm definitely planning to dig into yours. Just figured I'd let you know that I like your format and approach, even if its probably extremely time-consuming to produce.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Crikey. Most battle reports are little more than some photos and a couple sentences summarizing the game. That's more like a textbook.

LOL Thanks mate, yea I'm a wordy SOB to be honest. Plus I've got loads more time than someone in my position should have, but hey I ain't complainin-- the Army sent me to this position, so I'll shut up and enjoy the free time.

 

When I was doing this write-up, I had an interesting idea..... so I drew up another thread over in the Tactics forum. Sorry I'm dropping links all over the place but thats just how it goes I suppose.

 

Everybody navigate here to help me work on my Competitive-40K Primer: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=266949

[Ushtarador]

haha sweet, I also considered reenacting stuff in vassal, but that took way too much time for me :lol: good stuff!

 

 

edit:/ It seems in turn 2 you used wings and try to unleash rage, sanguine sword an force weapon all in one turn? cheater :P

[CitadelArmyGuy]

edit:/ It seems in turn 2 you used wings and try to unleash rage, sanguine sword an force weapon all in one turn? cheater ;)

Ouch! I wanted to come back and say that I'm forgetting something and that I didn't actually use 4 WC, but now I can't remember. I honestly might have. I want to say that I might have placed that Trygon too far back and so he actually was in easy walking distance-- but my memory (usually crystal for these things) is starting to fade a tad since it was two weeks ago.

 

Drat. I hate fudging up rules unintentionally.

[the jeske]

Wow that is some hardcore hate for a demon player just , because he is not local and 5 FMC is underdog like BAs 0_o ? well losing to team play specialy after wining all you could is the best he could do . Odd that judges decided to point his games like that , but then again local players are always in favor in such situations.

 

On necron flyer builds . They can actualy deal well with flamer/screamer armies . Personaly I find the version with bastion and storm lord better , because it lets you control the table against other shoty armies better and aside for an IG runing 2-3 manticors it is hard to kill the storm lord standing behind a bastion .

[Morticon]

Wow that is some hardcore hate for a demon player just , because he is not local and 5 FMC is underdog like BAs 0_o ?

 

I may be wrong Jeske, i think the rage was directed at the screamer spam daemon player- I think CAG had a good time with the flying circus list.

[ianj253]

On necron flyer builds . They can actualy deal well with flamer/screamer armies . Personaly I find the version with bastion and storm lord better , because it lets you control the table against other shoty armies better and aside for an IG runing 2-3 manticors it is hard to kill the storm lord standing behind a bastion .

 

I don't thin CAG was talking about necron builds. I think he was talking about how BA struggle to make a build that can handle Flamer/screamer spam and Necron flyer spam.

[Topknot11]

Ya know i have loved reading this thread. And on one hand i say if you dont like getting beat then Friggin get better. That being said my son and i along with a grp of other young guys decided we would have a tourney at our local store. We got with the owner cleaned out the back room and built tables and terrain and had a tourney we had 12 show up for our first one it was a pretty good time.

The second one i posted on a local 40k site and we got 5 new players. This was still 5th edition the new guys brought 3 leaf blower lists and two other beat your eyes out power lists and just smashed all the local guys. They told some of us they were just there to practice their ATC lists. This just totally demoralized all my young players as they did not have the money to buy the big power lists and our club tourney turn out has steadily dwindled ever since. So i think we as players should look at the level of our competition befor we pull out the curb stomp lists.

[Zhukov]

You cannot make a list which will beat both Flamers-Screamers spam and Necron Flyer spam. Not with Blood Angels at least.

2 questions popped up in my head when I read this:

1. Is this true?

2. Is this bad?

 

I don't have a definite answer on it, but maybe it's interesting to discuss at least:

 

1. Necron Flyer spam... Pure spam isn't that good, I assume this is known, so let's say lists with between 2 and 4 of them Croissants? Don't 2 Stormravens and 1 or 2 Divination Libbies solve this enough in your eyes?

What do you need against Daemons? Quantity of shots, not quality. Can't we deliver this? Stormravens, tactical squads, death company, divination, razorbacks...

 

What's the best list you managed to make? But assuming it's impossible to be competitive with Blood Angels alone:

 

2. Allies are in the core rules. When we're speaking about tournament play and beating Necron flier spam and Daemons then I think it's not fair to exclude using allies from our options. If you do that, you agree to not playing to win and so you should accept you wont beat certain armies. That's my point of view at least.

 

Edit:

 

Making a list without allies I'd arrive at something like this:

 

Librarian 100

Librarian 100

10 Tacticals 170

10 Tacticals 170

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 136

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 136

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 136

5 ASM; plasma, razorback, sl 136

3 MM Attack Bikes 150

3 MM Attack Bikes 150

Stormraven 230

Stormraven 230

Total: 1850

 

But from this also arrives the 'problem' that excluding allies is probably a bad idea. This can be shown without even trying to hard, by looking at this:

 

Librarian 100

10 Tacticals 170

10 Tacticals 170

 

This can be switched to this:

Rune Priest 100

10 Grey Hunters, 2x plasma, wolf standard 170

10 Grey Hunters, 2x plasma, wolf standard 170

 

You simply improve the list by doing this. (Rune Priest gives you psychic defense which a 2nd libby doesn't do, GH's are superior to tacticals in 95% of the cases for this list)

 

You can think further along the same lines. Can I switch the GH's and Rune Priest for something more powerfull/usefull?

 

You could take this:

 

Rune Priest 100

10 Grey Hunters, 2x plasma, wolf standard 170

10 Grey Hunters, 2x plasma, wolf standard 170

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

 

And include this instead:

 

Coteaz 100

10 GK's; 2x psycannon 220

10 Death Company; bolters and powerfirst 225

 

You lose on scoring bodies mainly, but gain a unit which helps against deepstriking/reserves/fliers and in general has a lot of firepower at range (GK's + coteaz) and adding a tough unit which kind of excells against Flamers/Screamers and is good against troops in general (Death Company)

 

 

This kind of use of Allies is the most straightforward way of doing it:

-You design a list while only using the Blood Angels codex, trying to include everything a good list in 6th needs.

-You go look if you can make it more efficient by letting allied units taking over the roles of some of the BA ones.

 

Other way of doing it is more complicated:

-You design a general army setup in an abstract way. For example: "I need scoring Meq bodies along with scoring Geq bodies, I need flier defense etc"

-In this case you might end up leaving gaps and then look if Allies can fill these gaps. We don't have scoring Geq bodies, but IG does for example.

 

 

Just some thoughts of mine, maybe its usefull for generating some more discussion.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Well said, Z.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Zhukov, I think that is some excellent points. I certainly have some feedback but unfortunately I'm home for the holidays now--- my time is completely absorbed by family + friends right now. I'll mull things over and return to this thread (and the Batrep thread) in January. Happy Holidays everyone B)

[Paulochromis]

... but unfortunately I'm home for the holidays now ...

Not a line you see often