Deep Strike & Jink Save

[GatW8]

Hi,

 

I've tried a quick search round and can't find anything on this so thought I would ask for opinion.

 

Can a Land Speeder claim a Jink save on the turn it deep strikes?

[Seahawk]

Yes. Deep Striking units count as having moved.

[dswanick]

That depends on your groups definition of "counts as". If they define "counts as" as "is equal to in all respects" - then yes, a Deep Striking Skimmer counts as having moved Cruising Speed so may claim a 5+ Cover save. Further, if your group allows Deep Striking Skimmers to move Flat Out, it can then claim a 4+ Jink Cover save. If they would argue that a model which "counts as" hasn't actually moved, then no - a Skimmer must have moved Cruising Speed to claim a Jink Cover save.

[Hymirl]

Claiming that counting as moving in fact doesn't count as moving at all doesn't sound very convincing to me.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yep, for all intents and purposes, the DSing unit has just moved, ergo it Jinks.

[dswanick]

Claiming that counting as moving in fact doesn't count as moving at all doesn't sound very convincing to me.

Agreed, but the are several members in this forum who have argued thus in several threads in this sub-forum. And I've encountered some IRL who make the same argument.

[Morollan]

Claiming that counting as moving in fact doesn't count as moving at all doesn't sound very convincing to me.

Agreed, but the are several members in this forum who have argued thus in several threads in this sub-forum. And I've encountered some IRL who make the same argument.

 

This one always tickles me. What do these people think "counts as" means?

[dswanick]

Claiming that counting as moving in fact doesn't count as moving at all doesn't sound very convincing to me.

Agreed, but the are several members in this forum who have argued thus in several threads in this sub-forum. And I've encountered some IRL who make the same argument.

 

This one always tickles me. What do these people think "counts as" means?

Heck, you tell me. You've debated them almost as long as I have. :P

[Azulz]

I'm kind of confused what the argument is. How can "counts as" be interpreted any other way than, treat exactly as if ______ were happening/had happened?

[Morollan]

I'm kind of confused what the argument is. How can "counts as" be interpreted any other way than, treat exactly as if ______ were happening/had happened?

 

It's a mystery to me. GW did their best to clear it up in the Necron FAQ.

 

Q: Does Writhing Worldscape cause every model moving through difficult terrain, moving as if in difficult terrain and counting as moving through difficult terrain to take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p41)

A: Yes.

[Jolemai]

Hasn't this been cleared up with the rules for shooting from a Drop Pod?

 

I.e The turn the Pod has landed it can only snap shot it's Storm Bolter due to the speed it moved and hence that would be applicable here?

[Seahawk]

Morollan, you'd think it'd be so easy, but then GW did the reverse with Tyranid Spore Clouds. Their ruling is inconsistent at best. *shrug*

 

 

 

With an example, these are the two camps on "counts-as":

 

Ex: "A potato counts as an orange."

 

Camp 1: That potato is an orange to explain how it works and is truly an orange, not a potato.

 

Camp 2: That potato is an orange to explain how it works but still is not an orange, it's a potato.

 

 

The problem is that both can be right, depending on the situation. To dig up something from the past, Camp 2 would be correct about the Gauntlet of the Forge and heavy flamers, while Camp 1 would be right about this deep strike situation. Nobody wins, GW sucks.

[Spacefrisian]

Doesnt the rulebook state that a deepstriking vehicle counts as having moved at cruising speed (the 12" one).

 

Besides that you have moved it from the side of the board onto the board. Thats a move in itself. Thats simple logic.

[Morollan]

Doesnt the rulebook state that a deepstriking vehicle counts as having moved at cruising speed (the 12" one).

 

Besides that you have moved it from the side of the board onto the board. Thats a move in itself. Thats simple logic.

 

It does indeed. Page 36

 

Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Cruising Speed

 

For some reason though, some people seem to think this doesn't count as moving because they haven't actually moved. ^_^

[Seahawk]

Thing is that they did move though: down. People that say it hasn't simply don't know how to think in three dimensions.

[Morollan]

Thing is that they did move though: down. People that say it hasn't simply don't know how to think in three dimensions.

 

I can kind of understand the logic of thinking they have not moved. After all, they were not in the table the previous turn so they have effectively just been placed there. What gets me though is the complete lack of logic behind "counts as moving" not counting as moving because it didn't actually move. We know it didn't move but we are told to treat it as though it had. How hard is that to understand?

[GatW8]

Thanks for the replies everyone. :D

 

I'm going to put it to my gaming group that you should be able to make a Jink save after Deep Striking.

[Gentlemanloser]

For some reason though, some people seem to think this doesn't count as moving because they haven't actually moved.

 

Like Gate of Infinity and Pinning. <_<

[tvih]

We know it didn't move but we are told to treat it as though it had. How hard is that to understand?

I know this is semantics, but it did actually move. Even though we just place it there, it actually came from far up at very high speed, rather than just teleporting/materializing there like a terminator squad would. Just because the entry vector isn't usually "animated" in game terms doesn't make it any less of a movement. And THAT'S why claiming they didn't move doesn't make any sense, not that it makes any difference because we are indeed told to count it as having moved regardless.

 

I mean what next, meteor that makes a crater instead of dragging along the ground is actually stationary object by these people's definition?

[Seahawk]

It's simple, simply take the claim to the crazy endpoint: "Well, none of your models have moved, ever, because they're inanimate plastic, so you get to shoot normally all the time, but they never claim Jink saves and I always auto-hit your vehicles in CC."

 

:D

[tvih]

It's simple, simply take the claim to the crazy endpoint: "Well, none of your models have moved, ever, because they're inanimate plastic, so you get to shoot normally all the time, but they never claim Jink saves and I always auto-hit your vehicles in CC."

 

:D

But how can an inanimate plastic model even fire? It can't pull the trigger, and even if it could pulling a plastic trigger on a solid plastic gun doesn't do much, now does it :P

[Fire Lord Captain]

It's simple, simply take the claim to the crazy endpoint: "Well, none of your models have moved, ever, because they're inanimate plastic, so you get to shoot normally all the time, but they never claim Jink saves and I always auto-hit your vehicles in CC."

 

:(

But how can an inanimate plastic model even fire? It can't pull the trigger, and even if it could pulling a plastic trigger on a solid plastic gun doesn't do much, now does it ;)

Mine aren't inanimate! Mine come screaming down, and land with a boom! doors open with a clank, and then uhuhuhuhuhuhuh goes the stormbolter.

of course they have moved!!

[Ming]

Yes, cruising speed. 12 inch movement. 5+ save (or is it 4+, since it went cruising...gak...need to bring my rulebook to work....)

 

Good part is, as a fast vehicle, a landpeeder deep strikes and can still fire its 2 weapons as if it was at combat speed...since it is a fast vehicle. Some day a drop pod will be classed as ... fast....