Mechanized Chaos army

[Lord Asvaldir]

So despite that transports are not as good as they use to be I want to make a mechanized chaos army, but I'm not sure what the best way to do it is. I'm thinking the main CC power of the army will be a chaos lord in terminator armor with the axe of blind fury in a land raider, with a terminator escort. The troops will be mostly normal marines in rhinos, but I'm not sure if I should go for a few 5 man squads so my opponent has to divide up his fire more or fewer 10 man squads. Rest of army army would be a forgefiend and heldrake, maybe 2 of each, or many some bikers, a predator or a vindicator.

[tvih]

I'd probably go with smaller units. That way, if your plan is to keep the troops inside the Rhinos as long as possible you lose less firepower by having them inside. If you have only two out of ten men shooting out from there that's a bit dubious in terms of efficiency, but two out of five or maybe six isn't so bad. If you plan on keeping them inside, though, adding Havoc launchers or such to the Rhinos themselves is probably not a bad idea to make up for the missing firepower of the embarked troops. Not that it's necessarily a bad idea even if the troops have disembarked.

 

On a related note I wish they had upped the fire points on the Rhinos to something like 4 though. Considering how big the top hatches are, it wouldn't have seemed over the top in terms of the model itself. And since Rhinos basically suck for CC squads, it would've at least made them better for shooty ones.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well leaving them in the rhinos doesn't seem that useful to me..not going to win a game getting 2 or so shots per squad each turn, even if I had 6 rhinos. I think the advantage of transports is it shields the squads from early long range firepower, and allows them to get to objectives and good positions quickly. Also can be used to shield them once they disembark to one side.

 

Havoc launchers are nice but I think it's better to keep the rhinos cheap.

[tvih]

Havoc launchers are nice but I think it's better to keep the rhinos cheap.

The thing of it is, though, that once you disembark the troops the stock Rhino is nigh useless even if it still is "alive". Sure, you can try to block line of sight to something or haul the troops to another location later or whatever, but with a Havoc it continues to be a viable threat to the enemy, thus possibly saving an extra marine or two as the enemy tries to kill it off. I'm actually interested in trying a full-on firepower Rhino with a combi-plasma and Havoc - heck, maybe even Warpflame gargoyles. Technically it could even have one more combi-bolter for a total of four weapons, but I'm not sure where you'd put the third combi-weapon on the model! Something to ponder on. In a defensive battle I could choose to not put any troops inside it at all, and it would be a threat - yet not too expensive at 67 points - on its own.

 

Basically in a turn such a pimped Rhino could unleash:

- 2-4 twin-linked bolter shots depending on range

- 1-2 bolter or plasma shots depending on range and whether or not using the plasma portion of combi-plasma

- Havoc blast, twin-linked

- Soul Blaze if you caused any unsaved wounds

 

Now, I'm not saying one should have a full pile of these, but I think it's something worth considering for one model at least. I suppose despite the reasonable number of shots it's not very good against MEq, but should be decent against T3 stuff etc. For the extra 32 points you spend on the additional weapons you could get 2 more marines, which would be less firepower than what is added to the Rhino, at least if you can stay put to use the Rhino's full BS for all weapons. Another option would of course be to take Destroyer blades instead (in which case the extra weapons would be left off), and troll your opponent with a Tank Shock :)

 

Anyway, it's worth pointing out that I'm looking at this more from the "fun" than the "minmaxing" point of view.

[minigun762]

I think a havocback for Chaos might just be a better use for the rhino than a straight transport. I'm leaning towards 2x combibolter and a havoc launcher for straight anti infantry firepower. Just move it along side my infantry and provide some extra firepower and LOS/melee blocking.

[Paradigm]

I think a havocback for Chaos might just be a better use for the rhino than a straight transport. I'm leaning towards 2x combibolter and a havoc launcher for straight anti infantry firepower. Just move it along side my infantry and provide some extra firepower and LOS/melee blocking.

 

This is exactly what I'm doing with it and to great effect. Even if the squad is going to camp out, taking the rhino is great. If your enemy ignores it then he gets havoc pain, and if he shoots at it, it keeps your troops alive longer, it really is a force multiplier. For the Infantry squads I wouldn't do 5 man squads, I'd go with 10-13 always. You can still take the rhino if over 10, you just can't start embarked and have to take a couple casualties before you can hitch a ride. By the end of the game, you should be able to zoom over to that objective easily. Taking thirteen gives you one more casualty before the 25% threshold also, and puts out 30 bolter shots a turn in rapid fire range using the havoc-back, plus the blast, assuming no other upgrades to the squad.

 

Even if you don't take destroyer blades tank shock is very useful.

[Important]

My experience atleast so far is that all my rhinos are destroyed within 2 rounds at best so I tend to not upgrade them at all.

[Lord Asvaldir]

You do have a good point with the havoc luancher. If I have 3-4 rhinos all with havoc luanchers, that's not something that can be ignored. I'm not sure it's worth going for the combi weapon but the luancher seems like a good idea just to safe my troops from some shooting.

[techsoldaten]

You do have a good point with the havoc luancher. If I have 3-4 rhinos all with havoc luanchers, that's not something that can be ignored. I'm not sure it's worth going for the combi weapon but the luancher seems like a good idea just to safe my troops from some shooting.

There was a good discussion about mechanized Chaos in this thread:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=264394

 

... which includes a couple links in the first post about Mech in 6th edition.

 

The topic is a little different, but people make some great points about the viability of vehicles in general in the 6th edition. Unfortunately, Chaos does not appear to be one of the armies that does good Mech lists these days.

 

The list I have have been playing the last couple months is centered around 4 squads of Noise Marines in Rhinos and 2 squads of bikers, all with Slaanesh Marks and IoE. I drive them up, disembark and use them as rolling cover. People tend to try to target the large squads or Marines behind the Rhinos or the Bikers, and FNP lets me shrug off a lot of shots. I position the Rhinos to create situations where opponents have to charge my troops behind the Rhinos, because otherwise I move them and expose the enemy troops to 50+ cover-ignoring shots the subsequent turn. This often doesn't work out for my opponents and the alternative is just as bad for them.

 

This tends to work very well against players who are still sort of new or don't bring a lot of AV, but I am starting to find that mobile cover works both ways. Ran into a skilled opponent over the weekend who popped one of the Rhinos, charged with a Death Company unit, and ended up eating 2 of my large NM squads.

 

This is really just to say that the only thing you really get with mobile cover is when they move, and that other players can exploit it. I think, for Chaos armies, it's important to have Rhinos plus some other big threat to distract your opponent or make it impossible for him to focus long on the Rhinos themselves. For instance, I am considering increasing the size of my biker squads and changing them to MoN to allow me to present a bigger threat than the marines in the Rhinos, so that opponents can't just sit there and shoot them up while they move up the field.

 

Anyways, hope this helps.

[steve shields]

So this weekend i entered into two tournaments with a mech chaos + guard list. the chaos gave me a few rhinos with HL (so worth it btw) 3 preds and two heldrakes. the guard gave me 4 chimeras a heldrake and in the 2k one a leman russ.

 

i took first overall in the first tournament, and 3rd in the other. before anyone says that loyalists would do better for a shooty mech list, let me say do not underestimate the heldrakes. they won me a few of my games by drawing massive fire, not caring about it and then eating a squad at a time.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Thanks for the link. I think the best thing to do is get a few rhinos and do some play testing. I'm mostly going for a chaos undivided army, but my terminators will have MoK.

[wargame insomniac]

Am worried that Rhinos are just giving opponent First Blood.

 

Any thoughts on mitigating that?

 

Cheers

 

James

[Panda_]

I've worked a lot on Rhinos, to me they provide a lot. "Get the first blood" on them is too much random, once your playstyle has been corrected to 6.

 

Here is a number of valid reasons to play some Mech :

18″ movement. Nothing more to say here.

 

Blocking line of sight. Even if the CSMs assigned to it don’t ride in it, it can block off a fire lane to the cultists holding an objective, and the opponent has to gamble on the vehicle damage table to remove it (as opposed to it turning into an invulnerable wreck which still blocks LoS beautifully), and has to expend serious AV resources to boost the chance to do so.

 

If wrecked instead of exploded, you get to move during your opponent’s shooting phase, which is a tactical advantage that is vastly under-appreciated.

 

Assault protection. Pop the Rhino in the shooting phase, but don’t roll an explosion? I get to place my guys in the best possible position to avoid assaults. Roll an explosion? I still get to crowd them at the rear of the crater *and* force you to roll difficult terrain on the assault move. It’s not an unstoppable defense by any means, but when we’re talking about 2d6, a couple of inches here or there makes a difference between a likely assault and a longshot.

 

Hull points reduces their mid-game and late-game use, but the changes to vehicle damage tables and glancing hits makes it harder for an opponent to *stop* several Rhinos in the first turn. So they’re better on the first turn (with a net increase to resilience on the first turn and an extra 6″ of movement), worse the rest of the game as compared to 5e. This doesn’t make them unusable, but requires a tactical adjustment. The overall changes are not enough to turn a previous auto-include into junk. They’re different now, and you either adjust lists and tactics to use them as they exist now, or adjust list and tactics to not use them.

 

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Remember rapid fire and disembark rules, right? What did everyone give their ground troops? Plasma guns?

Please tell me how exactly you are firing your plasma guns and charging the marines. This is a free move after the ride is blown up. Oh no, I can’t charge with my…rapid fire weapon equipped unit. This is an inherent bonus in the rules system for Marines. You get this bonus for free, you know.

 

So we can see we can generate an extra phase for oneself (movement). This is really nice to have when the other guy just rapid fired his plasmaguns to kill Rhinos, guess his guys standing in the open can’t charge me after all, so who cares?

 

Well, I can always let another squad disembark and fire on said squad, then embark on that other squads Rhino (especially nice if I’m stuck and unable to do anything but snap shot) and then run forward 12″ (if I want to snap shot).

 

Now think about what I just did. I not only gained a phase for myself, I denied a phase for my opponent (his CC phase, since he cannot charge me).

 

This might not seem like much, but the +1/-1 adds up over time. You have to LET your opponent make those choices, and then capitalize on them, but if you set up the bowling pins…eventually, the other guy IS going to knock some of them down. That’s where you come in.

 

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Tip and Run. Simple really. You “choose” not to fire with your vehicle, and move it 12″ so you can snap shot with the guys inside. Once done shooting, you move the vehicle back 6″. Silly, and likely to be FAQ’d, but until that occurs, it’s a new tactic in 40k. It’s not terribly effective unless you have access to twin-linking in some way, or have lots of shots.

 

In those quotes, some are debatable. Still some truth is lingering on.