Dammeron Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Given their portrayal in the HH novels in contrast to their more overtly theatrical brothers, I've developed a great deal of respect for Alpharius and Omegon. Without exception, the rest rely on a particularly theatrical form of coercion; a sense of metaphysical awe inspired by their stature and presence, which cows both "mortals" and their space marine sons into immediate submission. This kind of theatricality is, mythologically speaking, simply a means of ensuring that those around them are not in positions to question their decisions or authority, whether it's worthy of questioning or not. It's not something they do deliberately; rather a matter of their specifically determined natures. Alpharius and Omegon, on the other hand, have nothing but their actions and achievements to stand on. Physically, they are no different from their sons; so similar, in fact, that it seems no one; not even the other primarchs, exactly knows who or where the "real" primarchs are within the legion. They do not rely on awe inspiring presence or some aura of divinity in order to maintain authority; rather, they do so via their overt intellect and actions. Furthermore, they are the only primarchs to consciously diminish their own authority; they wish their legion to function on its own merits; not with reference to some lionised authority figures who can be so easily cowed, broken or corrupted in their own right. In that regard, they demonstrate aspects that set them apart from their brothers, and make them superior in many respects. This proclivity on behalf of the primarchs in the HH series and beyond has always bothered me, as it bothers me with regards to mythological, religious, political and otherwise iconic figures out here in "real life:" the instant any mortal or space marine comes into their presence and feels cowed by the very fact of it, awed by the sight and proximity of them, the immediate question should be: what are they hiding? What are they trying so hard to camouflage through frippery and theatrics? Furthermore, what are they actually doing and promoting? This is also something that applies to the Emperor, who seems to deliberately surround himself with such illusions. I'd likely have more time and respect for him (insofar as one can have respect for a genocidal tyrant) were he to abandon the theatricality and lay out his intentions in plain language, or at least deal with his sons on an equal footing. The structure of unthinking authority and blind obedience such statuses naturally promote are, historically, prone to corruption, decay and ultimate failure. Alpharius and Omegon seem to acknowledge this very, very early, and promote a modus operandi quite far removed aesthetically and philosophically from both the Imperium and the other Space Marine legions. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifrit446 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Let me try and add my thoughts to this both as a Chaos Marine and as an Alpha Legionnaire myself. Alpharius and Omegon are very distinctive primarchs as you've pointed out. They're fairly "normal" when it comes to their size, strength and abilities which some consider to be a weakness when compared to some other primarchs traits (Magnus's sorcery, Curze's foresight, Angron's immense physical prowess and bloodthirst). While most would say that the twins are weaker for this, it is seen by many Alpha players as their greatest strength. They APPEAR weak when in reality it's as if the Alpha Legion's capabilities are completely unknown to the universe, hence their apparent weakness is actually more (to me) played off as a misunderstood strength. Why would they NEED any other strength when they can replace themselves with any other Legionnaire and have him act in their stead?? Or why would they need apparent brute strength or fancy powers when noone really has any clue as to what they can do and where they are at any one time. Its almost as if they are made strong because they have the trump card of being the Legion that noone knows or understands. Hence, Alpharius and Omegon are able to play their own little parts and coordinate the Legion from within while staying underground, more like cogs in the great machine than actual leaders in the front of the battle. I know this is somewhat jumbled and confusing, but I hope it helps :P -Ifrit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 All though I started my Alpha Legion warband in 2nd edition, my main legion back then was Thousand Sons. Their backstory and philosophy was always my favorite, the nerds of the marine-world! Back then the Alpha Legion background was not fleshed out as it is now, but had a short passage alongside all the other legions, but nothing really was known about them apart from their willingness to prove themselves and that they valued teamwork very highly. Much much higher than any other legion in fact. This little fact together with the more "modern" fluff, makes them storywise equal to my much loved Thousand Sons. They are the special ops of the marines, the cold war era CIA/KGB/MI6 of the 40k world, funding rebellions and operating far far far behind enemy lines. They don't care much for praise(as is evident by their actions in "Fear to Tread"...I'm really curious as to what the f*** the Alpha Legion could have done to scare the Orks so much), they do their job with the tools they think is best for it...just like any other legion. But unlike any other legion, they are not very "flashy", they don't parade around in their shiny armours or try to impress their enemies with their flashy powers. They try to impress their brothers, like any brother would do, but get rebuffed when they do so(Girlyman, I'm looking at you!). Well, Dammeron nailed it as usual, I'm just ranting here anyway... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonah Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It would be funny if this translated into the Alpha Legion 30k army. So instead of buying a single Primarch model like with the other Legions you'd get a 5-model pack of unique Captains and before the game starts you choose which ones are Alpharius and Omegon. That way your opponent won't know until it's too late where the real Primarchs are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I am Alpharius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Lord Shamrockius Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 "The world is a stage, and we are but all actors". That quote I ineptly butchered was remembered from a Sociology module on self identity. Another viewpoint is that we all see ourselves as others see us. That was from Richard Cooley's "looking glass self", I think. The stance that all 19 (well, 17 I guess) other primarchs and the Emperor is one of figureheads. They have all, on their home worlds and now in their Legions (30k setting), all been revered as leaders, for some cause, in some way or another. The Emperors show is to gain support for something that is so brutal and so barbaric that he needs a good political reason and stance to gain public trust in order to do it. His "crusade" is to bring humanity together in the name of science and development, revoking the superstitious. There have been many writings we've all seen on the irony of Emp declaring a "crusade" to rid the galaxy of gods so we can leave it there. But his front is one of a revered and noble person, albeit mysterious and full of... Innuendo as to his actual plan, but it's one that worked. All primarchs followed him tirelessly, without question and (pet peeve here) "just because". All other primarchs had roles within this stage show, and all fulfilled them until they had no leader and Emp wandered off mysteriously to work on the golden throne/webway drive thru. Now look at the Alpha Legion primarch(s). They do not lead through bravado and bluster, forcing an iron fist. They taught independent thought to their legion, as well as team work. There is less of a need for a figure head or politician when you have small splinter cells to work independently of each other to an end with great levels of coordination going on throughout. It's the age old proverb of teaching a man to fish or giving him a fish; and my personal favourite, "if everyone in the room is thinking the same thing, nobody's thinking". The Alpha Legion think, because they have to. Maybe having two primarchs is the reason for this. No one true leader so we need discourse between those two. When more enter the circle, more joined the discourse. Not so when you're a 10-12' behemoth of a primarch among mortals as the others would have been before the emperors discovery of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 "The world is a stage, and we are but all actors". That quote I ineptly butchered was remembered from a Sociology module on self identity. All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players Bill Shakespeare (from As you like it) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 "We have infiltrated you, cower as I speak the trigger words; "Heresy Cabbage" Bwhahaha half your chapter is now my chapter.." InfiltratorXxXEXTREMEXxXnoscopeHeresy1 has logged off. AL is a bit cheesier than they use to be. Cabal is a bit meh. Concept of Twins is a bit meh. Being SuperSecretLoyalist420 is really meh. Rest is good. I like the civil war they are going to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Lord Shamrockius Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 "The world is a stage, and we are but all actors". That quote I ineptly butchered was remembered from a Sociology module on self identity. All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players Bill Shakespeare (from As you like it) Of course! The concussions are catching up with me! Thank you. How could I forget Bill? I believe he may make it big some day... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Cabal is a bit meh. Concept of Twins is a bit meh. Being SuperSecretLoyalist420 is really meh. Rest is good. I like the civil war they are going to have. From what I got from Deliverance Lost I thought they were done with the Cabal? Seemed when they got rid of the Cabal emissary that pretty much ended that.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Cabal is a bit meh. Concept of Twins is a bit meh. Being SuperSecretLoyalist420 is really meh. Rest is good. I like the civil war they are going to have. From what I got from Deliverance Lost I thought they were done with the Cabal? Seemed when they got rid of the Cabal emissary that pretty much ended that.... At the very least, part of the Legion is. It just happens to be the same part that blew up an Alpha Legion installation and then told Alpharius that a Loyalist Legion blew it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 "We have infiltrated you, cower as I speak the trigger words; "Heresy Cabbage" Bwhahaha half your chapter is now my chapter.." InfiltratorXxXEXTREMEXxXnoscopeHeresy1 has logged off. Yeah well, even though Space Marines never struck me as the best infiltration types I guess the AL should be quite good at infiltrating other Space Marine chapters at least. I always wondered how they infiltrated anybody before the heresy though. Cabal is a bit meh. Concept of Twins is a bit meh. Being SuperSecretLoyalist420 is really meh. Rest is good. I like the civil war they are going to have. I have never read Legion or Deliverance Lost, can you give me some details about this civil war? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 @ tanith -- the cabal in general @ Lepaca -- Its in neither; its hinted in a short story in one of those HH anthologies, forgot the name features Ranko IIRC Omegon is keeping secrets for Alpharius and decides to destroy an AL base to further his own ends. Basically the primarchs A n O are keeping secrets for each other. And hints at a conflict that hasn't started yet IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 yogi when and where they ever loyalists ? their fathers end game plan was to push humanity to ultra psyker level and calm the warp . the twins plan after what the cabal shown them is the erdiction of the human race . how can the erdiction of the human race be loyalist ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 when and where they ever loyalists ? Indeed, I really don't get how so many people miss this fact. In neither of the cabal "options", nor Omegons "third option" does the Imperium of Man win in any way... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3241998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 If anything, the support-the-cabal plan is more about being anti-Chaos than being aligned to any other faction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3242123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith IV Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 They taught independent thought to their legion ... It's the age old proverb of teaching a man to fish or giving him a fish; and my personal favourite, "if everyone in the room is thinking the same thing, nobody's thinking". Problem is that's just not true. The Alpha Legion do all think the same, Alpharius and Omegon are the exception. The rest of the Legion think and do exactly what Alpharius or Omegon tell them to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3242181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Problem is that's just not true. The Alpha Legion do all think the same, Alpharius and Omegon are the exception. The rest of the Legion think and do exactly what Alpharius or Omegon tell them to. Uh how would they know exactly what the twins are telling them at all the time if they're infiltrating another legion? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3242224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Problem is that's just not true. The Alpha Legion do all think the same, Alpharius and Omegon are the exception. The rest of the Legion think and do exactly what Alpharius or Omegon tell them to. You read about captains and marines discussing various topics in"Legion", that didn't seem like they were mindlessly following their primarchs. And just look at commander Janic of the Tenebrae installation, he was following the legion directives, but he most certanly was not telling A&O everything he did either. Secrecy is a big thing in the XX legion after all... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3242269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 Many thanks for the input. One of the more interesting (though not universally well handled) elements of the Hydra Brethren in their current HH incarnation is that their motivations, loyalties and ultimate agendas are so convoluted and obscure. As it currently stands, it seems that the legion's overriding modus operandi of secrecy and subterfuge is actually working against it, resulting in internal schisms whereby one group or individual are manipulated by another to achieve such and such an end which stands in contrast to the interests of this or that group. This may end up being what ultimately disbands the legion (assuming that it is indeed disbanded at the Heresy's conclusion), or it may transpire that everything is a matter of much wider manipulation by the legion's commanding officers, primarchs or maybe some outside agency. What I find most fascinating about the legion is how different it is in terms of ethos and operation to all of the others. Even given the idioms of the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children et al, there is a marked tendency for all of them to follow broadly similar hierarchical structures and to commonly revere their primarchs as the be all and end all, even when their attitudes or decisions conflict with what certain officers regard as correct. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Alpha Legion; it seems that the primarchs and commanding officers have gone out of their way to make themselves almost superfluous, resulting in a highly elite set of individuals who are not cowed simply as a result of theatrics or some mystical aura of perfection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3244387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Hmm, I think I know what the clash between Excessus and Warsmith is. No, they do not think the same way. However, they do think along similar mindsets. A small difference that is forced by the way the english language is set up. Essentially, it's like 8 people knowing the layout of the same city. They all go to the same places, but they all take 8 different routes to get there. And that results in 8 different ways to reach a similar conclusion. 8 different ways of thinking towards the same goal in the same mindset. That is the Alpha Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266138-respect-the-hydra/#findComment-3244418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.