C:SM Command Squads

[ShinyRhino]

Here is a loadout I had been experimenting with in 5th edition - haven't took it for a spin in 6th yet:

 

Apothecary (bolter)

Company Champion (bolt pistol, power weapon, shield)

Standard Bearer (bolter and power fist or thunder hammer)

Veteran (flamer and bolter)

Veteran (flamer and bolter)

 

Transport (when used) is a Rhino - keeping the unit fairly cheap overall - even though every Veteran has an upgrade.

 

Role: As I envision it, the role of the Command Squad is support. They start off near the center of the army where the standard can provide the most benefit. All models have bolters so they can engage enemy targets out to 24". When they need to reinforce the line, they assist other units by stepping up to assault - the flamers and Champ's bolt pistol soften the target first (Space Marines are so much better shooting than in CC anyway) and the power weapon/power fist help inflict those non-saveable wounds against the target (remember, the Command Squad is not acting alone - but supporting an IC and other units in the same assault) as they wade in.

 

Because they don't have a lot of "bling", they don't necessary attract much attention (like Deathstar units tend to do), but can still do a reasonable job when required to.

 

 

That is a very interesting buildout indeed. it has added punch in 6th due to Overwatch as well. You'd be amazed how irrational people get when they see template weapons in a unit they're thinking about charging :).

The trick is keeping those Marines alive in order to assault or apply firepower to the enemy, with the changes to transports.

[Spaced Hulk]

Here is a loadout I had been experimenting with in 5th edition - haven't took it for a spin in 6th yet:

 

Apothecary (bolter)

Company Champion (bolt pistol, power weapon, shield)

Standard Bearer (bolter and power fist or thunder hammer)

Veteran (flamer and bolter)

Veteran (flamer and bolter)

 

Transport (when used) is a Rhino - keeping the unit fairly cheap overall - even though every Veteran has an upgrade.

 

Role: As I envision it, the role of the Command Squad is support. They start off near the center of the army where the standard can provide the most benefit. All models have bolters so they can engage enemy targets out to 24". When they need to reinforce the line, they assist other units by stepping up to assault - the flamers and Champ's bolt pistol soften the target first (Space Marines are so much better shooting than in CC anyway) and the power weapon/power fist help inflict those non-saveable wounds against the target (remember, the Command Squad is not acting alone - but supporting an IC and other units in the same assault) as they wade in.

 

Because they don't have a lot of "bling", they don't necessary attract much attention (like Deathstar units tend to do), but can still do a reasonable job when required to.

 

If you wanted, you could have the Company Champion armed with a boltgun, chainsword, power weapon & combat shield. That way he could contribute at range while still getting a bonus attack from two ccws.

 

This is actually very similar to a Blood Angels Honour Guard concept I had a while back. This was my version:

 

- Sanguinary novitiate with boltgun.

- Blood Champion with boltgun, chainsword, power weapon & combat shield.

- 3 veterans, each with flamer, boltgun & melta bombs.

- All equipped with jump packs.

 

Like your command squad, I envision them as a support unit, providing a furious charge/feel no pain bubble for other units. The bolters fire while they advance with the rest of the army (adding to the overall firepower), the flamers give me a potent anti-horde weapon and three melta bombs should hopefully be enough to deal with any armour they come across. If they really need to, they can assault with 12 normal attacks and 4 power weapon attacks (all at strength 5). While that isn't that impressive on it's own, I'd be charging them in alongside other units/HQs to overwhelm a particularly nasty enemy unit.

 

Essentially, they're a swiss army knife type of a unit, with a tool for whatever situation they find themselves in. They're not meant to be a death star to rampage through the enemy on their own. Instead they're designed to support and compliment the rest of the army, providing options regardless of what they're facing.

[ShinyRhino]

If you wanted, you could have the Company Champion armed with a boltgun, chainsword, power weapon & combat shield. That way he could contribute at range while still getting a bonus attack from two ccws.

 

Debatable. The argument over whether a Company Champion can take wargear before he is upgraded to a Champion is a fight as old as the 5th Edition Marine codex, and most folks err on the side of caution and simply don't.

[Spaced Hulk]

If you wanted, you could have the Company Champion armed with a boltgun, chainsword, power weapon & combat shield. That way he could contribute at range while still getting a bonus attack from two ccws.

 

Debatable. The argument over whether a Company Champion can take wargear before he is upgraded to a Champion is a fight as old as the 5th Edition Marine codex, and most folks err on the side of caution and simply don't.

 

It's not an upgrade though, it's part of his basic wargear. All members of the command squad have: power armour, frag & krak, chainsword & either a boltgun or a bolt pistol. The Apothecary also has a narthecium. The Champion doesn't lose his starting equipment when you upgrade him, does he? Otherwise every Champion that is modelled with a bolt pistol and wearing power armour is actually illegal :D

[Bannus]

Otherwise every Champion that is modelled with a bolt pistol and wearing power armour is actually illegal ;)

But that is how every Champion is modelled - when using the kit stock - which suggests (according to WYSIWYG) that he loses the other weapons. It may be in one of the FAQ's too. But I too error on the side of caution and since non-character models in the Space Marine Codex are limited to two weapons, it seems logical to assume that the Champion has a similar limitation.

[War Angel]

It wouldn't suggest he loses the other items, he's still got the pistol in his shield hand. Doesn't he?

[Bannus]

It wouldn't suggest he loses the other items, he's still got the pistol in his shield hand. Doesn't he?

Yep - and a sword in the other.

 

As mentioned before, it is better to error on the side of caution. Sooner or later, GW will address the issue officially and odds are against the idea that he can carry a bolter, bolt pistol, power sword and shield all at the same time. I'd rather not rebuild my Champion model when that happens.

[War Angel]

But I think it makes sense he can have a bolt pistol, sword and combat shield. I think some where else in the codec you can get combat shields without loosing a weapon (there like bucklers, and don't take the full use of the hand, which is why they only offer a +6 save

[Spaced Hulk]

Otherwise every Champion that is modelled with a bolt pistol and wearing power armour is actually illegal :D

But that is how every Champion is modelled - when using the kit stock - which suggests (according to WYSIWYG) that he loses the other weapons. It may be in one of the FAQ's too. But I too error on the side of caution and since non-character models in the Space Marine Codex are limited to two weapons, it seems logical to assume that the Champion has a similar limitation.

 

Sorry, don't think I explained myself very well.

 

Basically, the way the codex is written, each member of the command squad has the following:

- power armour

- chainsword

- frag & krak grenades

- boltgun OR bolt pistol

(+ the Apothecary also has a narthecium)

 

Straight away, this is an unusal armament, because unlike most other units in the codex (other than dedicated assault squads) it's not actually possible to have a Command Squad model armed with both a boltgun AND a bolt pistol. They always have either one or the other + a chainsword.

 

Then, for xx points, you can upgrade one veteran to a Company Champion with a power weapon and combat shield.

 

Nowhere in that option are the words 'replace' or 'exchange' used. While this could be an oversight, the codex is actually pretty explicit when upgrades are concerned. For example, when a Captain is upgraded with terminator armour, it specifically states that he loses his power armour, frag & krak etc.

 

Therefore, as the Codex is written, every Company Champion has the following wargear:

- power armour

- chainsword

- frag & krak grenades

- boltgun OR bolt pistol

- power weapon

- combat shield.

 

While this is a pretty hefty armament, Space Marines are generally carrying more equipment in 40K with each passing codex. In fact, in the Space Marine codex itself, Honour Guards are each armed with a power weapon, boltgun & bolt pistol, with the option of taking a 4th weapon in the form of a relic blade as well!

 

I do agree that the Command Squad entry isn't particularly well written, and I certainly wouldn't give a Company Champ any of the upgrades allowed to 'normal' veterans in the squad, simply because he isn't a veteran any more, he's a company champion! :D However, the boltgun or bolt pistol that he carries isn't actually an upgrade, it's a choice dictated in his basic wargear.

 

I'm not going to derail this topic any further, simply because any debate like this is almost always a matter of personal interpretation, and the only way to get a definative answer is through an official FAQ.

 

To get the topic back on track, here's a question: is it still worth upgrading a model to a Champion even though (or perhaps because) he then becomes a Character, and is therefore affected by the Challenge rules? Is it better to have combat upgrades on normal veterans, where they're 'hidden' within the squad and cannot be challenged?

[ShinyRhino]

To get the topic back on track, here's a question: is it still worth upgrading a model to a Champion even though (or perhaps because) he then becomes a Character, and is therefore affected by the Challenge rules? Is it better to have combat upgrades on normal veterans, where they're 'hidden' within the squad and cannot be challenged?

 

I'd say 'yes' every time, because the Apothecary is a Character as well. If you don't upgrade to a Champion, it's your poor Apothecary who'll be fighting the challenges with his chainsword and pistol/bolter. Even chump Tau and Guardsmen will risk a challenge if they know they have a shot at downing your FNP-bot, plus soaking a couple spare wounds onto a character instead of their fragile unit.

[Spaced Hulk]

To get the topic back on track, here's a question: is it still worth upgrading a model to a Champion even though (or perhaps because) he then becomes a Character, and is therefore affected by the Challenge rules? Is it better to have combat upgrades on normal veterans, where they're 'hidden' within the squad and cannot be challenged?

 

I'd say 'yes' every time, because the Apothecary is a Character as well. If you don't upgrade to a Champion, it's your poor Apothecary who'll be fighting the challenges with his chainsword and pistol/bolter. Even chump Tau and Guardsmen will risk a challenge if they know they have a shot at downing your FNP-bot, plus soaking a couple spare wounds onto a character instead of their fragile unit.

 

You could always decline the challenge with the Apothecary though. While you'd lose his attacks that round his offensive output is fairly minimal anyway. With the Champion, you're paying points to increase his close combat ability, so having him stuck in a challenge is more detrimental (although I suppose it's also much more fluffy ^_^ ). On the other hand, if the Command Squad get's charged (for example) by a tooled up Chaos Lord, having a sacrificial Champion there to accept the challenge and keep the Lord occupied for a turn might be beneficial.

 

My current thinking is that, in general, taking combat upgrades (particularly power fists/axes) on normal veterans is probably the better investment, simply because they're one of the few units in the Marine Dex that can have 'hidden' weapons that can't be neutralised in a challenge. If points allow, then upgrading to a Champion as well isn't a bad idea because it gives you more options. However, if the Command Squad is being accompanied by an HQ, I'd say the Champion is almost a compulsary upgrade, because he can accept challenges and allow the more powerful character to cut down enemy units.

[DarkGuard]

When you refuse a challenge, you don't pick the model that doesn't fight, your opponent does. So if you refuse it'll likely always be your Captain/Company Champion not fighting.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

That is a very interesting buildout indeed. it has added punch in 6th due to Overwatch as well. You'd be amazed how irrational people get when they see template weapons in a unit they're thinking about charging :P.

The trick is keeping those Marines alive in order to assault or apply firepower to the enemy, with the changes to transports.

 

I tired using command squad this way, but the transport easily got hit by those Nids units with homing missile attack. I do not know the exact name of the unit and attack.

[ShinyRhino]

That is a very interesting buildout indeed. it has added punch in 6th due to Overwatch as well. You'd be amazed how irrational people get when they see template weapons in a unit they're thinking about charging <_<.

The trick is keeping those Marines alive in order to assault or apply firepower to the enemy, with the changes to transports.

 

I tired using command squad this way, but the transport easily got hit by those Nids units with homing missile attack. I do not know the exact name of the unit and attack.

 

Hive Guard, with Impaler Cannons.