Bikers...why and how?

[Excessus]

Your choice

[Lepaca]

Do you replace the twin linked bolter or ccw when taking melta or plasma?

 

The bolters. Why would I give up the ccw if I can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase anyway?

[Bat33.1]

Do you replace the twin linked bolter or ccw when taking melta or plasma?

 

The bolters. Why would I give up the ccw if I can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase anyway?

 

Aah I get it :)

 

Does anybody here know which weapons come in the GW bike upgrade kit? One seems to be plas the other I can't decide if it's a flamer or melta? Would be typical of GW not to give you a melta option...

[zyl-]

Do you replace the twin linked bolter or ccw when taking melta or plasma?

 

The bolters. Why would I give up the ccw if I can only shoot one weapon in the shooting phase anyway?

 

Aah I get it :)

 

Does anybody here know which weapons come in the GW bike upgrade kit? One seems to be plas the other I can't decide if it's a flamer or melta? Would be typical of GW not to give you a melta option...

 

 

this +10

 

I have a hard time going WYSIWYG a lot of the time because of the kits being incomplete.

[tvih]

Eh, well the bike upgrade kit looks kinda subpar. As far as the bike weapons - I didn't even realize they were that before, they just look like random lumps of weird really - basically seem to be a melta (it doesn't have the "lighter" part) and whatever the other weapon is. Could be plasma, but it doesn't look like plasma. Doesn't really look like anything.

 

I'm probably just going to try to come up with a solution of my own. Cut an infantry plasma/melta to size to mount on the bike, or whatever.

[Eorek]

Plasma pistol/infernus pistol/hand flamer x2/x1 would look good on a bike I think

[Lepaca]

If you do WYSIWYG with your melta bikes they will also look very weird because you have to replace your two bolters with 1 melta gun. Leaving one of the guns slots empty I guess?

 

Fortunately meltas are actually quite easy to build yourself using only a q-tip. I'll go and look for a tutorial I once read.

 

EDIT: Can't find it now but you basically encase the long plastic part of a q-tip in green stuff.

Then you wait till its dry and cut in several parts, each about the same length as the barrel of a melta gun.

Finally you use a hobby knife to make the slits and glue it to your gun. Nice and easy melta conversion.

[Noctus Cornix]

Ok so a quick question for you gents, since we're on the subject of bikes

 

I'm working on a 9 man bikers squad, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess and attached to a sorcerer on a beast of Slaanesh for outflanking.

 

What should I give the squad? Plasmas or meltas?

[Lepaca]

Ok so a quick question for you gents, since we're on the subject of bikes

 

I'm working on a 9 man bikers squad, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess and attached to a sorcerer on a beast of Slaanesh for outflanking.

 

What should I give the squad? Plasmas or meltas?

 

1) 9 man is too much me thinks. I'd rather go 6 or 7 (6 gets the fluffy bonus)

2) Don't outflank such a unit. Even if they arrive on turn 2 you won't get a charge off before turn 3. If you just let them start in your deployment zone you will probably get a turn 2 charge instead (maybe even turn 1).

Of course this only makes sense if you have other fast elements that can match their speed.

3) Use the outflank to get something else into your opponents deployment zone that is slow and cant get their fast enough on its own. Plasma chosen for example.

4) I think plasma would be better on a big biker squad. If I want fast melta I'd take 3 bikes with 2 meltas instead.

[Noctus Cornix]

Ok so a quick question for you gents, since we're on the subject of bikes

 

I'm working on a 9 man bikers squad, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess and attached to a sorcerer on a beast of Slaanesh for outflanking.

 

What should I give the squad? Plasmas or meltas?

 

1) 9 man is too much me thinks. I'd rather go 6 or 7 (6 gets the fluffy bonus)

2) Don't outflank such a unit. Even if they arrive on turn 2 you won't get a charge off before turn 3. If you just let them start in your deployment zone you will probably get a turn 2 charge instead (maybe even turn 1).

Of course this only makes sense if you have other fast elements that can match their speed.

3) Use the outflank to get something else into your opponents deployment zone that is slow and cant get their fast enough on its own. Plasma chosen for example.

4) I think plasma would be better on a big biker squad. If I want fast melta I'd take 3 bikes with 2 meltas instead.

 

 

1) its staying at 9

 

2)I'm not outflanking them so they can charge turn 1. They're meant to apply pressure to the opponents flanks and steamroll through the weak-links.

 

3) I have no such unit that doesn't have its own vehicle and alternate purpose.

 

4) I'll take plasma then.

[the jeske]

2)I'm not outflanking them so they can charge turn 1. They're meant to apply pressure to the opponents flanks and steamroll through the weak-links.

its not a lot pressure , if they are doing something on turn 3 in a 5-6 turn game . and that is with them coming on the table turn 2 and its not like you can be sure of that.

 

I dont think plasma is the way to go with big squads . with big squads [or rather bigger then 3man] with added HQ you want to do melee , twin linked bolters shots double taping and plasma double taping dont help you charge stuff , specialy in a random charge edition .

[tvih]

4) I think plasma would be better on a big biker squad. If I want fast melta I'd take 3 bikes with 2 meltas instead.

And once again you'd probably lose them before actually getting within 6" range. One non-melta model simply isn't enough of a meat shield.

[Noctus Cornix]

I disagree with you on that. After turn 1 and 2, unless my opponent is playing a gunline force, the majority of his army is at least spread out enough to allow gaps in his line. With all of his attention focused on the front, he exposes the soft underbelly of his army, usually being heavy weapons teams or weaker artillery vehicles. My lists are always about applying pressure upon my enemy and taking advantage of his weak points. Even if my unit does come in on turn 3 or 4, my opponent is faced with a large imposing unit of bikers that can soak up a huge wad of enemy fire. If he chooses to ignore it, I can steamroll through his forces but usually they panic at the sight of 10 enormous bikes coming from out of no where and focuses their fire on them, in which case his frontal units are left unaided and fall very quickly without their guns to help them.

 

I will be taking some form of special weapon in this unit no matter what, which will probably be plasma. I usually have a unit of termicide or melta raptors on hand but when the biker squad is used mainly to take out my enemy's back line, I need something to destroy weak vehicles like hammerheads and basilisks in case my plan A fails.

[the jeske]

4) I think plasma would be better on a big biker squad. If I want fast melta I'd take 3 bikes with 2 meltas instead.

And once again you'd probably lose them before actually getting within 6" range. One non-melta model simply isn't enough of a meat shield.

 

only if your playing on a lava board. with just 1-2 units being a 1st-2ed turn treat.

[Brother Amarel]

If you do WYSIWYG with your melta bikes they will also look very weird because you have to replace your two bolters with 1 melta gun. Leaving one of the guns slots empty I guess?

You used to get a targeter piece to fill the other slot.

[tvih]

only if your playing on a lava board. with just 1-2 units being a 1st-2ed turn treat.

What's that got to do with it? At least around here, heavy tanks tend to hang as far back as possible, meaning you won't get there in one turn (or more accurately, you might get there via turbo-boosting, but you won't get there AND shoot), thus giving the enemy the opportunity to kill your bikes by shooting and assaulting before you can shoot with the meltas. Exception being if you're waiting in full cover to pounce on a rushing transport, but outside of of a select few vehicles you don't even need meltas for them. But a further consideration is that a larger bike squad is more likely to actually do stuff even after that one turn's melta attack, like have enough power to charge the contents of a transport you blew up without it being a mere suicide. And besides, especially in a larger game using a valuable fast attack slot for just three bikes? Eh, well, each to their own I guess ;)

[the jeske]

What's that got to do with it?

everything . if there is more viable targets to shot at then your opponent can counter , then everything lives longer , because your opponent either spreads the fire and stuff has bigger chance to survive or he focus fires , but then some of the units are untouched . the only time when this is impossible , is if you end up on a lava board/highway style of a table on 1500+pts then a lot of armies are able to kill the other one [not table but make it no longer an effective force] in a single turn. on normal boards if it is impossible to get bikes in to range till turn 2 , then either your opponent is playing a drop pod build with foot slogger support [2 melta dont do much to a 40-50 man blob of IG ally siting behind an aegis] or your doing something wrong with the bikes .

Exception being if you're waiting in full cover to pounce on a rushing transport, but outside of of a select few vehicles you don't even need meltas for them.

have you played against IG or SW/IG builds lately. do you know what 3-4 av13+ armies do to chaos without melta ?

 

But a further consideration is that a larger bike squad is more likely to actually do stuff even after that one turn's melta attack, like have enough power to charge the contents of a transport you blew up without it being a mere suicide

and what get either tar pited and then counter charged or your opponent turn , or wining and ending up in the middle of no where looking at the opposing army firing line . 9+ bike units are bad because they cost too much . 3-6 is cheap and works ok . 9 dudes makes the rest of your army too small .

[Eorek]

What's that got to do with it?

everything . if there is more viable targets to shot at then your opponent can counter , then everything lives longer , because your opponent either spreads the fire and stuff has bigger chance to survive or he focus fires , but then some of the units are untouched . the only time when this is impossible , is if you end up on a lava board/highway style of a table on 1500+pts then a lot of armies are able to kill the other one [not table but make it no longer an effective force] in a single turn. on normal boards if it is impossible to get bikes in to range till turn 2 , then either your opponent is playing a drop pod build with foot slogger support [2 melta dont do much to a 40-50 man blob of IG ally siting behind an aegis] or your doing something wrong with the bikes .

Exception being if you're waiting in full cover to pounce on a rushing transport, but outside of of a select few vehicles you don't even need meltas for them.

have you played against IG or SW/IG builds lately. do you know what 3-4 av13+ armies do to chaos without melta ?

 

But a further consideration is that a larger bike squad is more likely to actually do stuff even after that one turn's melta attack, like have enough power to charge the contents of a transport you blew up without it being a mere suicide

and what get either tar pited and then counter charged or your opponent turn , or wining and ending up in the middle of no where looking at the opposing army firing line . 9+ bike units are bad because they cost too much . 3-6 is cheap and works ok . 9 dudes makes the rest of your army too small .

 

 

getting that close turn 1 will mean the rapid fire weaponry won't have much else to shoot at than your 3 man unit of bikers, Running 3 man units at higher point games (1999 for example) just feels like giving away first blood.

 

I don't have a singel melta in my army and it works fine against armour 13 builds, a "daemonforgeing" forge fiend(can see las preds or havocs doing the same thing) will bring down most armour 13 quite reliably, for armour 14 veichles your opponent won't let you get anywhere close with a melta anyways, Besides there are more effective ways to bring down a armour 14 vehichle... such as our maulerfiend(with a telepathy sorcerer backing it up it's great, invisibility...terrify against a unit trying to tarpit it etc)

 

I do however agree that 6-ish bikers is enough....works great as a unit for a steed/jugger/biker lord or a sorcerer and it has the durability to survive on iut's own

[tvih]

on normal boards if it is impossible to get bikes in to range till turn 2 , then either your opponent is playing a drop pod build with foot slogger support [2 melta dont do much to a 40-50 man blob of IG ally siting behind an aegis] or your doing something wrong with the bikes .

Or maybe said opponent is playing a defensive gunline? I see a lot of that. Rush your bikes there and they are DEAD. I play my BT that way too, good luck trying to come into melta range with 3 bikes, never mind in turn 1.

 

have you played against IG or SW/IG builds lately. do you know what 3-4 av13+ armies do to chaos without melta ?

Whoever said you shouldn't have melta? But very easily killed melta is pointless melta. As for not needing meltas for more than a select few vehicles, that was quite clearly referring to transports.

 

and what get either tar pited and then counter charged or your opponent turn , or wining and ending up in the middle of no where looking at the opposing army firing line . 9+ bike units are bad because they cost too much . 3-6 is cheap and works ok . 9 dudes makes the rest of your army too small .

Tar pitted? So is the enemy. Winning and ending up in the middle of nowhere? Big deal, mission already accomplished if you destroyed a transport AND its contents. Given how cheap bikes are, 3 bikes here or there isn't all that unless it's a small game. Whatever fire enemies expend on them is drawn away from others anyway, unless you indeed suicide charge right away with just the bikes and thus the enemies don't even have anything else in range to shoot at. But such a charge is indeed just that, suicide - in which case you shouldn't complain about price anyway, because you just threw them away. But for the record, I never said one should take 9 bikes - just that 3 isn't enough.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Linked to the weapon upgrade question earlier: If you give the champion a combi melta, can you swap out the twin bolters for it? I don't see why not, but it seems a bit of a grey area.

[the jeske]

Winning and ending up in the middle of nowhere? Big deal, mission already accomplished if you destroyed a transport AND its contents.

dude if you play opponents which lose because they lost a transport and a squad [it would have to be a deathstar , but deathstars dont die to a single unit of bikers] , then why do you worry about having "only"

one extra body on bikers.

 

 

Whoever said you shouldn't have melta? But very easily killed melta is pointless melta. As for not needing meltas for more than a select few vehicles, that was quite clearly referring to transports.

what transports , vendettas and drop pods ? and show me better cheap melta then bikers and would gladly run it at 1500pts.

 

Or maybe said opponent is playing a defensive gunline? I see a lot of that. Rush your bikes there and they are DEAD. I play my BT that way too, good luck trying to come into melta range with 3 bikes, never mind in turn 1.

true . if your playing on a board that is made out of two buildings in each deployment zone and a huge open space in the middle . but why play chaos on such tables at all . without pods and/or big infiltration group from huron , it doesnt matter what you do and what you take . SW and IG or mix of those will always out shot you .

the fact that you played BT as an assault army and not gunline [minimax , cheap tank hunter termis with 2 cyclons per 5 dudes , cheap land speeders etc] , shows me that place you play is very different what I have seen in 6th in europe .

[Lepaca]

I dont think plasma is the way to go with big squads . with big squads [or rather bigger then 3man] with added HQ you want to do melee , twin linked bolters shots double taping and plasma double taping dont help you charge stuff , specialy in a random charge edition .

 

So no special weapons? That seems incredibly counterintuitive but your reasoning makes sense. :)

[Minsc]

Meltas to pop that transport so you can charge the content.

[tvih]

dude if you play opponents which lose because they lost a transport and a squad [it would have to be a deathstar , but deathstars dont die to a single unit of bikers] , then why do you worry about having "only"

one extra body on bikers.

Uh, I said nothing about that winning the match? I said that if the bike squad does destroy both the transport and its contents, then it has done what it was meant to do and earned its points back handsomely already and thus mission accomplished on its part.

 

true . if your playing on a board that is made out of two buildings in each deployment zone and a huge open space in the middle . but why play chaos on such tables at all . without pods and/or big infiltration group from huron , it doesnt matter what you do and what you take . SW and IG or mix of those will always out shot you.

In our tournaments terrain is pre-set by the organizers, not deployed separately for each match. So there's no choice on how the terrain is. In friendly games it's often that we use whatever's been used by the players before us, or alternatively a "third party" sets it up.

 

the fact that you played BT as an assault army and not gunline [minimax , cheap tank hunter termis with 2 cyclons per 5 dudes , cheap land speeders etc] , shows me that place you play is very different what I have seen in 6th in europe .

No, I was referring to playing as a gunline with my BT - I've done some assaulting with them in "friendly" matches because I like close combat in principle, but it never ends well. Anyway, as such a three-man (hell, even a way larger) melta biker squad would be shot to hell before they got anywhere near my Predators and/or Vindicator. Just today I dropped 5 ork nob bikers in turn 1 with AP2/AP3 fire despite only being able to shoot with a portion of my force (in part because he started and killed my Dread with his lootas, the second Dread was out of range, as were my troop units and bikes, plus line of sight issues - the map was VERY full of terrain, which was bad for me- etc etc... in other words, it hardly took all of my firepower). A single-wound 10-man marine biker squad would've been minced meat much before those five. Never mind if I had been playing a remotely optimized list (which would've resulted in almost double the amount of krak missiles and lascannons per turn, an Aegis with Quad, and so forth) instead of this mixed mishmash.