techsoldaten Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I played against a Blood Angel army over the weekend and ran into some issues. Wondering if anyone has any advice on how to handle Death Company / units affected by the Black Rage. My army was composed of 2 units of bikers, 4 units of Noise Marines, a Defiler and Obliterators. His army was all troops, he had a lot of tactical squads, assault marines, and rhinos. I usually rely on speed as a tactic in my games, moving Rhinos filled with Noise Marines up the middle and bringing the bikers around the left and right sides to hit his flanks. My opponent went first and basically pulled the same thing on me, getting his troops in close and attacking with a lot of troops that had FNP. He had this one Death Company unit that was just really hard to deal with. He charged a squad of Noise Marines, shrugged off a lot of overwatch and close combat attacks, then proceeded to kill off 8 of my models of the unit before it retreated. The DC unit consolidated right next to another squad of Noise Marines, shrugged off all but a couple shooting attacks the next round, then repeated the process. My bikers did a little better but they were facing troops affected by the Black Rage. By the middle of the game, all of the models for both sides were in the middle of the board, and my side just kept thinning out before the game ended. There were few opportunities to use the Battle Cannon or Obliterator weapons, since everyone was in cc all the time. While I realize I probably made some mistakes and needed to spread out my troops more, the BAs seemed like a cc juggernaut and really did a number on my forces. Any tips for how to deal with them under 6th edition rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I would play defensively. Use the Rhino's to run away when he gets too close by deploying out of them at the start of the game and jumping in and boosting away. He will have to waste another turn trying to blow up the rhino and get to the troops, in that time other units in the army can focus fire on the units attacking (especially the battle cannon and Oblits) or, if he manages to wreck the rhino clever deployment will ensure that the NM get another round of 3 shot shooting. Finally, were you using Blastmasters? They will wreck the Death Company as well with S8. What were the DC using? In a pinch, the Defiler can counter charge and will mush the unit (if they have no PF's) Finally, veteran of the long war is your friend. My last game with my Iron warriors was against BA. My squad with the cheap lord (Aura, Brand, PW) ate through a DC unit, an Assault squad and a Sanguinary Gaurd (though in that last case it was Plasma killing them leaving just 1 SG to be jumped on); each time they were charged, and with hatred they beat them in the ground over two rounds of combat (in each case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I would play defensively. Use the Rhino's to run away when he gets too close by deploying out of them at the start of the game and jumping in and boosting away. He will have to waste another turn trying to blow up the rhino and get to the troops, in that time other units in the army can focus fire on the units attacking (especially the battle cannon and Oblits) or, if he manages to wreck the rhino clever deployment will ensure that the NM get another round of 3 shot shooting. I was using my Rhinos as mobile cover, trying to limit his ability to shoot back at my troops. He was able to wreck the Rhinos and open up lanes to charge my guys who were suddenly without cover. Not sure about this, but do Blood Angels have some special rules around plasmas and meltas? I don't remember the exact details, but he was rolling extra dice in a couple cases. Finally, were you using Blastmasters? They will wreck the Death Company as well with S8. What were the DC using? In a pinch, the Defiler can counter charge and will mush the unit (if they have no PF's) Yeah, I did bring Blastmasters, the trouble was I never got a solid round of shooting with them. They got into charge range without me getting a clear shot with the Blastmasters, and the next unit was close enough for a charge after they consolidated. I did get one round of shooting but the Blastmasters did not really do anything because of FNP. Finally, veteran of the long war is your friend. My last game with my Iron warriors was against BA. My squad with the cheap lord (Aura, Brand, PW) ate through a DC unit, an Assault squad and a Sanguinary Gaurd (though in that last case it was Plasma killing them leaving just 1 SG to be jumped on); each time they were charged, and with hatred they beat them in the ground over two rounds of combat (in each case). Wow. Yeah, I really goofed by not taking VOTLW, I didn't want to reorganize my list and thought I had enough stuff to deal with them without it. Hatred would have made a huge difference. Did you go first? One of the things I came away with was the impression that turn order played a big role in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Was he consolidating from one combat to another? How fast did he charge you? Sounds like your list was mostly a gunline but you still should've been able to get some opportunities to shoot the :) out of him. What kind of lord did you bring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy12009 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I think the primary concern is that you clashed in the middle of the board. If he wants to take the center, let him. Press the flanks as normal but hold your center back or even back up a bit. That way his hammer must choose to reach out left, right, or center. Whatever he chooses, he'd be out of position for the other two. Now you bought yourself an extra 2-3turns shooting at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Was he consolidating from one combat to another? How fast did he charge you? Sounds like your list was mostly a gunline but you still should've been able to get some opportunities to shoot the :) out of him. What kind of lord did you bring? Here's a way to picture the situation: So, what I am usually doing here is forcing an opponent to charge my troops from between the Rhinos, because otherwise I am just going to move the Rhinos the next round and shoot up whatever is behind them with sonic weapons. He blew up the Rhino in the front right, charged my Noise Marines behind it, and shrugged off all the overwatch shots. In cc, my guys hit first and caused like 1 unsaved wound, while he got in 5 wounds. He was just close enough to pull this all off, and (obviously) if he rolled different on the charges it wouldn't have been that bad. In my next turn, I shot up the tac squad that blew up the Rhino, and cc continued. He finished off my Noise Marine in the front right, consolidated a couple inches towards the next unit, and charged it the next round. I did not have any chances to shoot him up with the noise marines in the rear rank since my marines were always in cc, and there was no clear lane to shoot at his other units. I had a Chaos Lord on a bike with the Black Mace and the sigil of corruption. He rides up with 5 bikers and attacks enemies on the flanks. He did exactly that and ate up a tactical squad himself over the space of 2 turns. By the time he got back to the noise marines, there were only 2 units left, and he was getting ready to do the same thing with the Death Dompany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I think the primary concern is that you clashed in the middle of the board. If he wants to take the center, let him. Press the flanks as normal but hold your center back or even back up a bit. That way his hammer must choose to reach out left, right, or center. Whatever he chooses, he'd be out of position for the other two. Now you bought yourself an extra 2-3turns shooting at him. Yeah, sounds like good thoughts here. He had a couple units in the backfield attacking my Defiler, and I had a couple biker units on his side of the table I was looking to link up with. It just happened that we were both fighting in the middle of the board, and moving backward really would have meant me moving back towards a corner. I was never expecting him to charge in with the Death Company, or that it would be so tough. Does anyone know the special rules around these guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 am sorry but how do you "outflank" BAs when they are moving faster then you ? DC are an non scoring troop unit . FnP if chaplains are taken they get re-rolls on hit and wound , they can take power weapons, fists , thunder hammer [i think] . and they have rage . so a lot of power weapon class attack with FC . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Oh I know what you mean with the rhinos. Yeah the DC are a hammer unit for sure but the rest aren't so bad unless he's running MSU assault squads. Really the DC were you main problem then and it seems as if he just got lucky with alot of his stuff (i.e. destroying the rhinos instead of wrecking them, finishing your squads in your turn so they could charge the next). DC are best shot to death. Edit: Might be a decent target for a terminator squad, DC have 3+ saves right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatefires Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Death company does berserker better than our own khorne guys, then they have an extra attack and feel no pain on top of it, and are only 1 point more than our berserkers. Your Str 8 AP 3 sjots from battle cannon and Blastmaster should have negated the feel no pain and wounds would just be dead death company, no saves allowed. He would still get the FnP from the Plasma shots though. Death Company rocks hard though, they make allot of elite slots envious. Oh but its all good bcause since our units count as scoring, it is so worth the points :D The guys in black with a rechlusiarch are some of the best assult troops in the game, and they cant count as scoring so they WILL be trying to assult you and not be held back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yeah, the s8 blastmaster is instadeath, so fnp is no good. Also, it looks like you ran foreward with shooting units.. into a mele army. That's just a huge mistake. Really, mele with blood angels is generally something to avoid hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Did you go first? One of the things I came away with was the impression that turn order played a big role in this game. I was going to but he stole the initiative. I had infiltrated my units closer as well with the warlord trait so they could wreck the LR with the DC in straight away. Totally caught me off guard when turned around and got the charge. The Brand on the lord helped blunt the charge a little bit but he was still rolling 40 attacks in the first turn to my 25 (ish). The difference was just about all mine hit and I had 7 power weapons attacks and he had none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 DC are just plain nuts but ID will kill them quick. So, str8 attacks or better. As to extra dice for shooting, that can only happen with non-native powers ie; psyker whatsists etc - not CBA powers or extras. VoTLW makes a big difference, perhaps tank shocking with a rhino to tie them up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Baleflamers and the brand kills DC as well, they only get a 5+ FnP against it since they ignore cover! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 DC are just plain nuts but ID will kill them quick. So, str8 attacks or better. As to extra dice for shooting, that can only happen with non-native powers ie; psyker whatsists etc - not CBA powers or extras. VoTLW makes a big difference, perhaps tank shocking with a rhino to tie them up? You know, this is another area of 6th edition where I am not too clear on the rules. Can tank shocking with a Rhino cause any damage? Doesn't the vehicle simply go through the unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Yes and no. If the minis are "under" the Rhino when it stops and they cannot move to 1" away without breaking unit coherency or going off the board, they get squished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Destroyer blades! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Oh yeah, forgot about those beauties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Oh yeah, forgot about those beauties. I really should have mentioned that ^_^ Ive found 2-3 rhino w/ extra bolters and at least one havoc can do some serious damage and tarpitting, especially when the unit does not have many PW - and with a high base cost, most DC will not be equipped for dealing with vehicles. -edit- you can maneuver a couple of low AV rhinos in such away so as to catch an enemy squad and wipe it out. BAck them up with a plasma squad (I use melta if I fight BA or TEQ armies (like DW) and you can do some damage. Though the baleflamer is probably a very good option too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 they will have at least one fist/hammer and rest of attacks are going to be str 5 . lots of str 5 + str8A on av10 is kind of a deadly for rhinos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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