Have you ever had someone refuse to play you?

[adamv6]

One of the local players said to me a while back that your create a winning Greyknight army "by photocopying the codex, putting the pages on the wall and blindfolded throwing darts at them, picking anything that was underneath the dart"

 

I thought this assessment was harsh (his main army is Space Pups), but, when not playing tournament-esque or serious games, I have tried to downgrade my lists a little.

 

As such I played this last time;

 

1850 points

 

GrandMaster with MC Halberd and OSR

2 x 5man Strike Squads with 1x PSYCANNON

1 x 10man Purifier Squad with 3 Incinerators, 5 halberds and a NDH

1 x 10man Purifier Squad with 4 psycannons and 5 halberds

Vindicare Assassin

LRR with MM

Dreadknight (HI, Psilencer and Greatsword)

Stormraven with MM, AC and Psybolts

 

I thought this was fairly 'fluffy', but still good enough to give a tight game.

 

I played against a guy using C:SM (Imperial Fists, very nicely painted), he took some goodies, Storm Talons, Assault Terminators, Master of the Forge, Predator.

 

We rolled for the relic, he conceeded at turn 3, stating "I can't f--ing win this, f---ing Greyknights, f---king overpowered f---ing Purifier spam, f--king vindicare...." and on he went for another 5minutes.

 

I got lucky with an OSR, scattered 2 inches and took out most of his terminators, but then they ran off the board. I also killed his Master of the Forge first shot with the Vindicare, but other than that, I failed 5 out of 6 saves on my flamer purifiers, and lost 2 hull points on my Stormraven.

 

Has this ever happened to you? Is my list OP?

[Brother Nihm]

Is my list OP?

Not at all,

 

But your Codex is generally perceived to be and this may have ticked him off.

[Lord Ragnarok]

"I can't f--ing win this, f---ing Greyknights, f---king overpowered f---ing Purifier spam, f--king vindicare....

Meh, he wasn't worth playing anyway. many folks jump to the conclusion that they could not have improved their gameplay versus blaming the power of another army. I'm sure he didn't play a perfect game. Some folks just can't handle losing.

[shortysl]

One of the local players said to me a while back that your create a winning Greyknight army "by photocopying the codex, putting the pages on the wall and blindfolded throwing darts at them, picking anything that was underneath the dart"

 

I tried this once but my opponent looked at me funny when I deployed the Contents page.......

[thade]

many folks jump to the conclusion that they could not have improved their gameplay versus blaming the power of another army. I'm sure he didn't play a perfect game. Some folks just can't handle losing.

Your list honestly seemed a bit meek to me, with so few scoring models and so many expensive elites. That would've been a very rough list to play with in an objective-centric mission if your opponent was able to get at your scoring units. :)

 

If he doesn't enjoy playing against you (or if you don't enjoy playing against him) there's a simple solution; challenge other opponents. <3 Still, it can be rough to be on the receiving end of that kind of dialog. Sorry you had to. That is a sad fact of gaming in general: there are 'sore losers' out there.

[spartan249]

There are a few who refuse to play me, based on whatever problem they have with either the match up or with me as a person. It's ok, as I would probably do the same to those unsavory people who treat me like that.

 

I do understand why this person might feel the way he does, as GKs have it pretty good relatively speaking (even with all the balance changes of 6th). However, his problem solving skills seem to be lacking, as that's all it is in a GK vs SM match. A SM army dedicated to wiping out elite armies can do a pretty nice job neutralizing GKs.

[shortysl]

A SM army dedicated to wiping out elite armies can do a pretty nice job neutralizing GKs.

 

This is very true. I played a mate's Crimson Fists recently and although I won the match, it was a VERY close run thing. I think people concentrate so much on the Grey Knights' offensive potential that they forget their defensive capabilities are little better then a vanilla Space Marine army,

[the jeske]

you know saying that a sm player can deal with an all round GK list as long as he tailors to kill GK doesnt help a lot of players.

 

A most people playing now , played in 5th . And in 5th GK were many things , but balanced was not one of them . I still doubt a nid player can enjoy a game against a GK army , unless the GK has his dice cursed .

 

B people think that they can play with anything and that it will work . problem is that with armies being the way there are and dexs being the way they are , some armies do better random lists then other . GK are in the second camp , so some fluff heads may not like them.

 

C 6th imbalanced going first more then all editions ,save maybe 2ed. If your army is fast [and GK with dreadnights , scout from GK etc can be fast] some scenarios are lost turn one . If you started killed his warlord[1point] got the relic and have a flyer and dreadknight to grab line breaker , the chance to win for the sm player was rather slim . And while am not like that , some people dont like to play games they know they are going to lose .

 

D not liking stuff is a taste thing . I hate to play against fish of fury , there maybe people who dislike playing against GK .

[Gentlemanloser]

Adam, that is the largest gripe with the GK dex my group has.

 

And yes, they've all currently refused to play me. Even in 6th. Sucks, but until thier 'dexes (nilla marines and Eldar really) are updated, they have no desire to ever face the Grey Knights again.

 

Sucks to be me.

[spartan249]

It's not tailoring to take on GKs, it's called being a wise player.

 

Stuff that works against GKs works against just about anyone else, as GKs are still defensively unaugmented marines. Assume you are fighting either GKs or IG, and you're pretty much set in most non-gimmick match ups.

[Brother Ambroz]

It's not tailoring to take on GKs, it's called being a wise player.

 

Stuff that works against GKs works against just about anyone else, as GKs are still defensively unaugmented marines. Assume you are fighting either GKs or IG, and you're pretty much set in most non-gimmick match ups.

 

So Rad grenades and all those random grenades you get don't make a difference?

[spartan249]

Not in the grand scheme of a match.

 

You should be more worried about shooty henchmen and PAGKs focused on shooting. Those are the real killers in a GK list, not the assault unit with expensive grenade support.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I'll play against GK anytime. I've written up a lot currently about WAAC playing and 'How you Win', having just got back from my first 6th Ed Tourny myself.

 

GK are completely beatable. Most codicies will face an uphill battle, and the GK codex is chock full of hard-counters against many common tactics and strategies. But invincible, they are not. They get amazing abilities for what those abilities cost, but the bottom line is they are still expensive and hence (usually) outnumbered.

 

Which is why GK-IG are so good together. But I'll play against that too.

[Brother Ambroz]

I wasn't talking about shooting. I was referring to you saying they were still defensively unaugmented marines.

[thade]

Complaints about combat-specific grenades in the GK codex have always struck me as a little strange. GK in melee are brutal as a rule; only highly specialized or equipped units can handle them toe-to-toe anyway. If you get into a fist-fight with GK, you're fighting uphill no matter what.

 

They may have been nasty in 5th; we're in 6th now and they are no longer peerless.

[adamv6]

Your list honestly seemed a bit meek to me, with so few scoring models and so many expensive elites. That would've been a very rough list to play with in an objective-centric mission if your opponent was able to get at your scoring units

 

One of his gripes was about the Grand Master and Grand Strategy. I rolled a 5 and made the Purifiers and Dreadknight scoring. To be honest, he played a silly game plan, but I wiped his scoring units far too easily, meaning he couldn't control the relic. That was what tipped him over the edge.

 

GM, sorry to hear you can't get a game with your Knights, that sucks.

[Brother Ambroz]

How are complaints about grenades that subtract one from your toughness or (possibly) render your unit useless for a turn strange? They're brutal at ranged as well as melee. Refute my arguements all you want but they're true.

 

OT - I can understand where he's coming from but just because you're starting to lose doesn't mean you should just give up, even subpar codex books. Some people are like that though.

[Gentlemanloser]

GM, sorry to hear you can't get a game with your Knights, that sucks.

 

The scattershot/darts comment is very true though.

 

You'd have to be hard pressed to create a list, chosing units at random, that wouldn't perform well. Certainly *much* better than if you did the same with another 'dex.

 

Personally, I don't see this as an issue, as no one builds lists randomly.

 

But it's a common gripe. Someone who's not played GK before can just 'pick up and play' and be 'good' straight out of the box. Which can't be said for other Codexes, where you need to learn the dex, and how units synergise, before you really unlock how that army plays.

[Isiah]

As an outsider, I'd say people have got no grounds to complain about an opponent's [GK] army on the grounds of their codex, be that powerful or not. I find that kind of behaviour extremely childish frankly. A gamer has the tools to work with and it is up to him/her to make the best they can out of them, simple as that.

 

The whole 'refusing to play' scenario sounds totally sour grapes and should be stamped on from a great height.

 

Cheers

I

[Babel_Triumphant]

Almost any grey knight list will roll over a poorly made list from a different codex. With good lists it can be a little closer, but still pretty rough. That said, it's completely childish to ragequit midgame because of it. Refusing to play a certain list, maybe. I'd play you with my sisters.

 

On a side note, vindicare assassins are not overpowered at all. From my experience they seem incredible on paper but get shafted by cover, the randomness of turbo-penetrators, and lack of a unit to eat instant death attacks like missiles. The real killer with grey knights is the insane quality on its basic troops for only a small premium over standard marines.

[Zeratul29]

Yes, I've had this problem as well, my friends say gk's are overpowerd, one plays dark angels and the other plays templars, even though my dark angel friend has come to realize their not, my templar friend insists that the "Warddex" made gk's overpowered. And this other guard player i've played against, I completely dominated against because he ran them poorly, running veteran squads and choosing poor targets.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Here is a handy rule of thumb

 

Scenario A:

 

"I am secure enough about my ego and my army that I feel comfortable playing you, regardless of what army you choose to bring. Because I rely on strategy, tactics, and good dice rolls to get my wins."

 

Scenario B:

 

"Boo hoo your codex is OP and wins by default"

 

If they are A, play them.

If they are B, laugh and don't play them. It's not worth the hassle.

 

Also, never EVER change your army list or playstyle because someone else throws a tantrum. Its a game, there are winners and losers. If they can't handle losing, they shouldn't be playing. Simple.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've been on the other end of the stick, and i know how it feels.

 

I played the old DH codex for *years*, and was routinely stomped by just about every other army out there.

 

it was fine when we had all returned to 40k, but as our knowledge and understanding of both the game, and our respective armies, grew, it became apparant that my army of choice back then just didn't have the tools.

 

Sure, i could win the occasional game, if luck and RNG went my way.

 

But it wasn't fun.

 

It was a slog. Especially when you faced the Flying Circus, or old Daemon (who ran through DH, with their lack of Transports, unless lady luck wasn't on thier side, or you auto won by taking 'sanctuary'). It became demorilising, and I didn't want to play.

 

The other armies I faced, were just so much better.

 

More tools, better tools, even cheaper.

 

It didn't matter how good a tactician I was, my army was limiting me. Play another army? Sure (and I did). But I want to play the Grey Knights. You might just as well suggest playing another game (and I did).

 

It wasn't 'soul grapes', or childishness. It was defeat, after defeat, after defeat. With nothing but game mechanics to blame.

 

And now, the shoe is on the other foot. And I can totaly understand where my opponents are coming from.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Still doesn't mean you have to play them. I mean, if they are so determined to get bent out of shape because they A: have an irrational dislike for Knights or B: play a terrible list and have unrealistic expectations of victory, that is their problem.

 

People like that you'll never please, no matter how hard you try. Just avoid them.

[adamv6]

I don't consider myself a tactical genius, and my dice rolls are pretty average (My hits rolls always seem brilliant, my save rolls less so). I do however have many years of playing 40K (through the editions) and a bizarre mind for tactics which throws people completely off their game plan.

 

I have played against ETC players and given them a mighty fight (one game my GK vs GK / IG), and lost to Eldar, Blood Angels and Tau (2nd game of 6th Edition, I learnt my lessons quickly in that game).

 

The GK codex is hard to play against, I have used my sons Space Wolves and let him play with my GKs, and he gives me a mighty fight (more so than when using his Wolves), so I appreciate that the codex has a certain amount of innate power.

 

I have offered to play the same guy again, with the same list. This time he knows what I am taking, so he can tailor to his hearts content. Hopefully I table the prick in turn2 and show him once and for all he is a cretin. :D