1.5k: The B&C Special

[Crynn]

I wouldn't take a 10 man terminator blob. People are asking how hard that is to kill well if you think they can kill 20 strike knights with shooting, 10 terminators is generally slightly easier to kill. especially if we are using a defence line. I understand about having an assault unit, and we have the best one around DCA. A delivery system for one would help and you need anti flyer, a multi melta assault cannon storm raven is excellent at that and can transport your DCA quite reliably.

 

I would take 5 DCA 2 Crusaders a banisher as demons are rock hard right now and a couple of accolytes in that unit. At 128 points the unit is next to nothing and will beat almost anything in assault. I would take your second inquis with divination and BOTH psycotroke and rad grenades and run him with not with the DCA but on the ground in a 10 man strike squad just like coteaz. When the raven drops to skimmer mode to unleash the DCA simply join the inquisitor with prescience to the unit and now your DCA have a full compliment of grenades, not to mention charging 10 strike with prescience hammerhand and both grenades is a suicide mission for anything but the hardest of assault units. I would also take a defence line with a quad gun.

 

That way you have 20 scoring strikes and a reasonable size henchmen squad. You ahve a great flyer and quad gun for anti air not to mention 4 prescience psycannon firing 16 shots is excellent at it as well.

 

So far the lsit would look like this

 

HQ:

Coteaz,

Inquisitor, Psyker, rad and psycotroke grenades.

 

Troops:

 

10x strikes with 2x psycannon and psybolt ammo

10x strikes with 2x psycannon and psybolt ammo

Henchmen Unit. 5x DCA, 2x Crusader, 1x Banisher, 2x Acolyte

 

Fast attack

 

Storm Raven

 

Aegis defence line with Quad gun.

 

Total 1098. This gives you up to 5 scoring unit's if you want to split the strikes and the raven will be scoring in a mission well. You have good anti tank, anti infantry, flyer horde. It's a super solid core.

 

 

My personal opinion for taking the next 400 points would be as follows.

 

I would take another henchmen unit at 88 points with 8 psykers and 2 acolyte to sop up wounds that can lay down a str 10 ap 1 large blast from behind the defence line and 3 servo skulls on the inquisitor to reduce the blasts scatter and your own deep strike scatter if you choose to deep strike anything. that comes to 97 points and is also a 4th/6th scoring unit. 305 points left.

 

After that it's hard to advise as you have most bases covered and it's so much based on personal preference really. I would go a jumping dreadknight with the flamer and for the last 70 points 1 jokero and 5 storm bolter acolytes.

 

That would give you 5-7 scoring units in each mission with an additional scoring dread knight or storm raven in other missions. You have decent anti tank, lots of anti infantry, very good assault, some exceedingly fast units to get across the board with, great anti flyer and a defence line to boot.

 

I hope you find that a good base to bun off. I have found lists very similar to this extremely effective as an all comers list.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Crynn]

I just wanted to write this comparison down to show you much better an assault unit you can make than terminators. My apologies for being wordy here, but it is necessary

To give you an idea of how solid that DCA unit is in assault, lets pitch it up against that 10 man terminator unit that is proposed. 10 terminators will generall have 2 hammers. that leaves 8 models striking, however when you charge them with your inquisitor joined they will drop to i1 because of psycout grenades. I won't include psycotrokes for this example because frankly this will be a slaughter anyway. They have 20 attacks total. that is 10 hits and lets say they cast hammer hand and wound on 2's. that is 8 wounds. you take off the two acolytes and with your two crusaders with+ invulns would absorb 6 wounds and dice but lets say you lose one more and have to remove the banisher too. Then at the same initiative your DCA strike. 5 of them have 20 attacks on the charge, and they hit on 3's with re-rolls. That's 18 hits. axe's give +1 str and rad -1 toughness you wound them on 2's, that is 15 wounds. they save 5 and lose all 10 terminators.

 

This is not including the inquisitors 4 power weapons attacks or the 4 from the crusaders, all which would have would still wound on 3's as they would take axes, totaling with you actually killing around 13 terminators. With your psycotrokes if you roll a 2 your enemy is auto hit and only has 1 attack meanign you would barely lose a model, if you roll a 6, 5/6 of all the terminators would attack themselves etc etc, the unit is stupidly powerfull in combat. 10 terminators on foot are not, becasue they rarely dictate who charges and are more likely to just get shot up. That terminator unit is also worth over three times what your DCA unit is worth. In fact with 2 psycannons it is worth more than the grenade inquisitor the entire henchmen unit and the Storm Raven they can choose to fly in.

 

Just my 2 cents matey, however I truely believe the terminators are sub par unit compared to strikes. Also for little it's worth in this example 20 strikes would have actually done better in combat against these DCA as they would be harder to kill and the DCA would lose attacks to multi charge them, if they dont multi charge then they kill 10 strike and the other 10 can do a goof job of shooting them afterwards. LAstly stirkes have warp quake, and demon armies and drop pod armies are rather popular at the moment.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Zeratul29]

Examples like those is exactly why I'm including DCA in my army now, they'll just slaughter anything, I'm looking forward to a good variation of this list which has 5 troop choices(2 strikes, shooty warband, CC warband, and a monkey and 11 bolter acolytes to man the quad gun) storm raven for the cc warband, with grenade toting inquisitor and coteaz of course, and a vindicare for overkill :)

[Crynn]

so sounds like we are suggesting the exact same lists, except where I suggested a dread night you buffed out the shooty warband and took a vindicare instead! Sounds good. Like I said that last 300 points I spent was really personal preference the list already had all the basics covered.

 

One suggestion I would make is do not take servitors, you limit where your inquisitors can go and what they will be doing. Plasma cannons are also vastly over rated when fighting good players.

 

One thing to remember about a vindicare is he can't go to ground though so I would buy a razorback or a rhino for a henchman squad you have and use that to block LOS to him then move it to shoot and flat out it back in front of him after he has shot and wrecked something.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Zeratul29]

Hmm, alright, well the vindicare's gonna go on the aegis line and so would coteaz with the plasma servitors and two monkeys, i may just take a rhino for the henchman to do the flat out thing for the vindicare. then I would trade out the acolyte monkey squad for it and add more guys to the dca unit and the shooty warband, I'm gonna try mine first to see how it performs then tweak it

 

Yes, my orginal thoughts were for a dreadknight as well... :)

[Crynn]

Hmm, alright, well the vindicare's gonna go on the aegis line and so would coteaz with the plasma servitors and two monkeys, i may just take a rhino for the henchman to do the flat out thing for the vindicare. then I would trade out the acolyte monkey squad for it and add more guys to the dca unit and the shooty warband, I'm gonna try mine first to see how it performs then tweak it

 

Yes, my orginal thoughts were for a dreadknight as well... :P

 

Great minds think alike :)

[Zeratul29]

Hmm, i did not know the vindicare could not go to ground, i wasn't going to anyway with his 3+ cover save :P

 

So i think I'll go for the extra scoring unit at the moment and see how that works for me

 

But I have always liked the idea of rhinos used for nothing more than LOS blockers :)

[Crynn]

Hmm, i did not know the vindicare could not go to ground, i wasn't going to anyway with his 3+ cover save :D

 

So i think I'll go for the extra scoring unit at the moment and see how that works for me

 

But I have always liked the idea of rhinos used for nothing more than LOS blockers :tu:

 

And the obiligitory search light can sometimes come in very handy.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't take a 10 man terminator blob. People are asking how hard that is to kill well if you think they can kill 20 strike knights with shooting, 10 terminators is generally slightly easier to kill. especially if we are using a defence line. I understand about having an assault unit, and we have the best one around DCA. A delivery system for one would help and you need anti flyer, a multi melta assault cannon storm raven is excellent at that and can transport your DCA quite reliably.

 

All it takes is a bit of anti-Flyer and that Raven is dead though. Terminators don't give a toss about Icarus lascannons or quad-guns, or Flyers for that matter. I'm not saying DCA+Raven is bad, I just think at 1.5k its a unit thats likely to die and thus not score by game end. Terminators are more likely to stick around due to TDA and they're designed to tank damage, whereas DCA fold after a bit of bolter fire to the face.

 

I think at 2k though, its a very solid choice. You can afford to expend that many points on an aggressive expendable unit to screw up the enemy backline.

 

I don't agree that double Strike > TDA blob always though. It's a very matchup dependant thing. In some games, it might be better to have a whole bunch of scoring Combat squads. In others, you might want something to tank melee units and draw fire. I've played with both and I find Strikes too one-dimensional. They're great for two shooting phases, then someone throws down Terminators, Assault Marines, Harlies, even horde units like Shoota Boyz, and I just fold after they charge in. TDA blob laughs off units like that, they take concentrated fire and multi-charges to put down reliably.

 

I still reckon at 1.5k, people are going to have more issues killing off the TDA blob than 2 Tac Marine squads (essentially). Scoring Terminators are awesome and annoying to deal with.

[Crynn]

I wouldn't take a 10 man terminator blob. People are asking how hard that is to kill well if you think they can kill 20 strike knights with shooting, 10 terminators is generally slightly easier to kill. especially if we are using a defence line. I understand about having an assault unit, and we have the best one around DCA. A delivery system for one would help and you need anti flyer, a multi melta assault cannon storm raven is excellent at that and can transport your DCA quite reliably.

 

All it takes is a bit of anti-Flyer and that Raven is dead though. Terminators don't give a toss about Icarus lascannons or quad-guns, or Flyers for that matter. I'm not saying DCA+Raven is bad, I just think at 1.5k its a unit thats likely to die and thus not score by game end. Terminators are more likely to stick around due to TDA and they're designed to tank damage, whereas DCA fold after a bit of bolter fire to the face.

 

I think at 2k though, its a very solid choice. You can afford to expend that many points on an aggressive expendable unit to screw up the enemy backline.

 

I don't agree that double Strike > TDA blob always though. It's a very matchup dependant thing. In some games, it might be better to have a whole bunch of scoring Combat squads. In others, you might want something to tank melee units and draw fire. I've played with both and I find Strikes too one-dimensional. They're great for two shooting phases, then someone throws down Terminators, Assault Marines, Harlies, even horde units like Shoota Boyz, and I just fold after they charge in. TDA blob laughs off units like that, they take concentrated fire and multi-charges to put down reliably.

 

I still reckon at 1.5k, people are going to have more issues killing off the TDA blob than 2 Tac Marine squads (essentially). Scoring Terminators are awesome and annoying to deal with.

 

 

The raven and friends aren't for scoring (though they can do that) and tanking damage so much as for the combat prowess the 20 strikes to the scoring. With your reference to s horde of shoota boys shooting/charging terminators or strikes, the strikes will alst longer and do more damage mathamatically every single time no matter how it is played against shoota boys. they are significant'y better against horde.

 

A quad gun is better at killing a raven than a icarus and can be destroye however the chance of a bs 4 quad gun killing a raven is less than 7%. ANd if you don't kill it then next turn 10 terminators or something is dead.

 

Drawing fire is a concept that makes little sense in reality on the board. 20 strikes will 99% of the time draw more fire than 10 terminators. If you are talking about someone shooting something because it is a percieved threat, that is different again and the terminators are only arguably more of a threat in combat, and they have to walk there so that really isn't a threat until at least turn 3.

 

No top table tounrament army from any large tournament I can find used terminators however I can fin many that use strikes.

 

 

But that argument aside between strikes and terminators, the DCA are really a stand alone unit that has nothing to do with whether or not the army has strikes or terminators. I think they are an answer to many death stars at only 128 points. That is crazy and every army should have an answer to death stars just like it should for horde. At 2k when you say the raven is feesable I would also disagree. The bigger the game the more points they have to spend on anti flyer units. at 2k it is much more likely that a single raven will not survive a round of shooting. Perhaps 2 ravens would be better at 2k but that is another debate, however a single raven will be less effective at 2k, not more. You are saying a raven is likely to die at 1500 but not at 2000. at 1500 though a 'bit of anti flyer' as you mentioned doesn't cut it. Like I showed a quad gun does little to a raven, to further what you may expect at 1500 from lets say guard, we can give them a blob wth 5 auto cannons. that is 10 shots that have around a 20% chance to kill the raven. Add in the quad gun and include hull point damage and you are and only then do you creep above 50% chance to kill it. This is shooting a bs 4 quad gun and a 50 man blob! that means that blob didn't shoot your strikes, this is a win! A raven is not easy to kill.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[spartan249]

Ok, so votes to switch terminators to strikes? And how about either the inclusion of a CC henchmen unit or replacement of a shooty unit with one?

[Crynn]

Need I say it? I obviously vote strikes.

[Zeratul29]

I vote strikes as well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With your reference to s horde of shoota boys shooting/charging terminators or strikes, the strikes will alst longer and do more damage mathamatically every single time no matter how it is played against shoota boys. they are significant'y better against horde.

 

I'm not sure you've played Orks, or at least a good Ork player. Also, its a completely non-sensical argument. Strikes get 1A standing still, and they only hit with half their attacks against Orks. Terminators have twice the attacks, three if you took Banner, so they average about an Ork dead per Terminator. Also, Orks can break power armour with the sheer damage output on the charge (3 attacks for Shoota Boyz, 4 attacks if he took Sluggas for whatever reason, maybe realising he won't win the firefight haha). In both cases you challenge and murder the Nob, although the Terminator Justicar again has higher odds of success with Banner (3 attacks with Banner versus 2 from the Strike Justicar). So no, if you are charged by the same size mob, Terminator blob comfortably takes the charge and demolishes them. Strikes get pulverised. Thats the difference between Terminator and Strikes.

 

Trading better doesn't matter, the Strikes still lose but the Terminators have very good odds of surviving and winning the combat.

 

A quad gun is better at killing a raven than a icarus and can be destroye however the chance of a bs 4 quad gun killing a raven is less than 7%. ANd if you don't kill it then next turn 10 terminators or something is dead.

 

Icarus has pretty good odds. S9 against AV12 is going to be a pen usually, glance if you roll badly. Although it probably won't be the only anti-Flyer Orks have. You are more likely to get Loota'd out of the sky.

 

Drawing fire is a concept that makes little sense in reality on the board. 20 strikes will 99% of the time draw more fire than 10 terminators. If you are talking about someone shooting something because it is a percieved threat, that is different again and the terminators are only arguably more of a threat in combat, and they have to walk there so that really isn't a threat until at least turn 3.

 

Which Orks want to engage in, so Terminators make far more sense than Strikes. Drawing fire does matter. Your opponent is usually going to be shooting you up based on target priority (its what I do, and I don't play complete idiots). Strikes are scoring, so they already are high on the list of 'kill this first'. Terminators are even higher up, as they score, chew up and spit out unsupported attempts at charging them, and they shoot pretty hard as well for a dedicated melee unit. They also tank damage really well, so inevitably (unless he has some really good hard-counter, like mass AP2) they're going to take more shooting to kill off.

 

No top table tounrament army from any large tournament I can find used terminators however I can fin many that use strikes.

 

Red herrings for a shilling!

 

But that argument aside between strikes and terminators, the DCA are really a stand alone unit that has nothing to do with whether or not the army has strikes or terminators.

 

Er yeah it does. You are spending significant points on a melee unit and delivery system (Raven), when you could just take Terminators and get the same (or better, depending on enemy unit) melee output, just minus the mobility.

 

 

I'm still voting Terminators obviously. 1.5k is perfect for it. Although if we end up going double Strike, I'm cool with it too.

[spartan249]

Well, strikes have served me much more reliably then terminators, especially against numerically superior opponents banking on assault.

 

Strikes have a lot going for them vs terminators IMO. Roughly equal durability vs standard small arms, higher durability against armor piercing weaponry (exception AP3, only time terminators are better off), vastly higher firepower, and ability to split fire and engage multiple units. Only now do terminators pull out ahead in assault thanks to the power weapon changes, and without mobility, assault is harder to reach for both sides.

 

I personally think terminators are doomed in this D6 based system. The system just isn't precise enough to make the difference between PA and TDA noticeable enough to warrant the cost.

[Gentlemanloser]

Terminators aren't doomed, they need need to be cheaper.

 

30 points each (for example only), and they become a much more attractive choice, and would be taken over Strikes.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, strikes have served me much more reliably then terminators, especially against numerically superior opponents banking on assault.

 

Good work, but that hasn't been my experience. I'd also be pretty confident in saying against someone who does hordes properly, that shouldn't be the case.

 

I personally think terminators are doomed in this D6 based system. The system just isn't precise enough to make the difference between PA and TDA noticeable enough to warrant the cost.

 

Not really. Terminators are exactly twice as durable as Strikes, which makes sense given the halved bodycount. Mine routinely walk through entire enemy shooting phases without a casualty, then start losing men by about Turn 3 or 4. My Strikes lose men Turn 1 and keep up the pace. Trust me, the difference between PA and TDA is noticeable.

 

Terminators aren't doomed, they need need to be cheaper.

 

30 points each (for example only), and they become a much more attractive choice, and would be taken over Strikes.

 

That statement would only make sense if you meant 'take away their nemesis weapons, psychic powers and Troops slot'. Because if you do that, they're as cheap as Chaos Terminators but better in every way measurable. Dude, come on. 30pts? They'd be in every army forever. 40pts is still a great bargain, given how flexible Mat made them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then Strikes need to be made cheaper.

 

GKT aren't used as point for point twice the amount of Strikes is a better investment.

[spartan249]

So why don't you define a properly done horde? Just so we're on the same page, you know?

 

So... I say they're equally durable. You say no, they're twice as durable but have half the wounds. Really? Need I point out how you just proved my point?

 

Besides, strikes are never alone. Hordes I face are having to deal with both overwhelming localized firepower and the most powerful assault unit I can think of point for point. Stuff walks in, 75% evaporates on the way in, and when it's finally in, I evaporate it with a reaction charge. Only specifics change with each horde. My strategy and most of my tactics remain unchanged.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Then Strikes need to be made cheaper.

 

GKT aren't used as point for point twice the amount of Strikes is a better investment.

 

Wait what? :P

 

So on the one hand, they need to be cheaper...but they're already a better investment than TDA blob? Can't be both man.

 

I personally think they're both properly costed, its just that Strikes folding in melee means they're not as flexible tactically. Although you get twice the bodies+firepower...so its a tradeoff. As I said, I don't think TDA blob is 100% always better, I just find it better in my list and against my usual opponents. In a ranged game, more dakka to win firefights might be the better option. So yeah, I'm voting for TDA blob, but double Strike is also cool.

 

So why don't you define a properly done horde? Just so we're on the same page, you know?

 

Well consider that both Orks and IG (the two premier 'blob' armies) can field a massive amount of cheap bodies in a single unit, and still cause sufficient damage to worry you;

 

Commissar, 5 x Sergeants, 45 x Guardsmen

(285 points)

 

Stubborn LD9, they take forever to die and if given the 'FRFSRF' Order they can obliterate you in a hail of flashlights. I've had them tie down my Terminators for a while too, although they kinda evaporate to Purifiers or Purgator Trogdor build (quad flamer in a Rhino). It's even more annoying when they don't advance, they just sit on an objective and refuse to die. More expensive than Strikes to be fair, but it hardly matters when even two units of Strikes barely make a dent in them. Aegis line is the last straw, they GtG then get told to stand back up in their turn via Orders.

 

30 x Shoota Boyz

(180 points)

 

Nob squad leader is useless against us (too easily challenge sniped), so my local Ork player just doesn't bother with the upgrade. Their lower body count than the IG is offset by their annoying resilience (storm bolter just doesn't get enough kills, psycannon does ok but you never have enough). They move into charge range, shoot you up with a lot of S4, then charge in. They're cheaper than Strikes by a significant amount. I typically face 3-4 of these blobs, sometimes only 20-man if he's taken Biker Nobz (not as common anymore, given how much fail Nobz are against us).

 

 

So... I say they're equally durable. You say no, they're twice as durable but have half the wounds. Really? Need I point out how you just proved my point?

 

They're equally durable to the same damage. However, there are other factors besides just pure toughness. Strikes have terrible melee ability (you'll never get the charge, barring some truly weird scenarios), Terminators have excellent melee output even at 5-man (due to Banner and 2A base), and they don't need the charge. AP3 in melee is death to Strikes, hell even spamming enough attacks is enough to break Strikes. TDA is designed to tank lots of non-AP2 hits, AP3 makes no difference to them, and the number of things with AP2 that are faster than halberds are vanishing small and usually as expensive as Terminators (or lone models).

Strikes do have twice the raw ranged dakka though. As I'm trying to explain, its not 'one is always better than the other'. TDA is better than Strikes in a number of situations, and they can take on units that Strikes will just fold to. They're a more 'take all comers' choice in my opinion. However, if you need a lot of scoring units, or your meta-game favours more shooting over melee, Strikes are a better choice obviously.

 

Besides, strikes are never alone. Hordes I face are having to deal with both overwhelming localized firepower and the most powerful assault unit I can think of point for point. Stuff walks in, 75% evaporates on the way in, and when it's finally in, I evaporate it with a reaction charge. Only specifics change with each horde. My strategy and most of my tactics remain unchanged.

 

If you opponent walks into a killing field you've set up with favorable odds for you, of course you are going to dominate. He needs to stop walking into an obvious trap, multi-threat your lines and just play better. My local horde players don't just blindly charge forwards, they often shoot me a lot and hang around the mid-field before committing. They also use fast units to distract/threaten me from other angles (Deffkoptas, Stormboyz, demo-charge+plasma Veterans dropping from Vendettas, Hellhounds etc). I mean, it might be fun that your regular opponents don't understand how to avoid getting trapped by you, but it doesn't mean that Strikes are magically the best unit evah against hordes.

[Gentlemanloser]

Wait what?

 

*cough*

 

More expensive. :devil:

 

Brain fart there!

[spartan249]

Barring tailoring, I never see such horrible units hit the table. No flexibility, low mobility, huge bulk, and an ideal target for strikes given that neither ignore armor saves while getting no save other then cover against either strikes or terminators.

 

Huh, I must be in bizarro land then, as I get quite a few charges in with strikes when I want to do so. Strikes aren't as horrible as you think in assault, as it's a specific type of threat that kills strikes but leaves terminators relatively fine. Any other situation, strikes are charging into a better situation as there will be less bodies in the threat then when terminators do. It's a natural consequence of bringing double firepower, more will die before it gets to the point of assault.

 

Now you're insulting my opponents, are you? Granted, they don't do all that well against me, since I understand my army and know their army well enough to force the fight into my favor, but they are still capable players who obliterate other guys quite regularily with supposedly underpowered tyranids and non BS orks. Funny enough, I played one guy with my PAGK list, then my Dwing list, and I definitely felt a lot more pressure with the Dwing. Terminators face the same problem as they are sadly very comparable to PAGKs in durability but have much less ranged firepower and no ability to split targets to achieve maximum shooting efficiency.

 

PAGKs are the more sensible general choice IMO. Terminators have their specific set of circumstances that govern when they are the better choice vs strikes, but assault capability can always be covered by the vastly more effective henchmen, so I don't feel a burning need for them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Barring tailoring, I never see such horrible units hit the table. No flexibility, low mobility, huge bulk, and an ideal target for strikes given that neither ignore armor saves while getting no save other then cover against either strikes or terminators.

 

Then you don't play horde players. Simple. Hence my need to clarify. That is the kind of unit you'd have to deal with, if they were fielding proper blobs. Given thats not the case, and he's feeding you 20-strong or less units to your gunline, I'm hardly surprised you do well against it.

 

Huh, I must be in bizarro land then, as I get quite a few charges in with strikes when I want to do so. Strikes aren't as horrible as you think in assault, as it's a specific type of threat that kills strikes but leaves terminators relatively fine. Any other situation, strikes are charging into a better situation as there will be less bodies in the threat then when terminators do. It's a natural consequence of bringing double firepower, more will die before it gets to the point of assault.

 

As I say, good for you, but its hardly a normal circumstance. Strikes prefer shooting over melee (they shoot twice at range but only swing once in melee, barring charges). Being infantry, they are far more likely to take a charge than make one. Jump Infantry, Bikes, fast walkers, infantry jumping out of Assault ramps/Open Topped...hell, someone it can be as simple as another infantry unit rolling well for charge distance and getting the drop on you. Sure, they take Overwatch, but it might only take a handful to rout you.

More dakka does make a difference, but all it takes is a handful of good melee models to make assault range and you start losing manz pretty fast. I've had little as 3 Terminators wipe a Strike squad off the map (although in fairness they were down to 7 men by that point). Strikes are the Tactical Marines of our codex, they shoot efficiently but melee is not their strong suit. 1A base is terrible, even if it is a power weapon, because you just won't land enough hits to win combats decisively. I dunno about you but I fight Marines on a fairly regular basis, and Orks. Both flavours of enemy possess WS4, which means half of your attacks miss (although I often roll worse than that, but averages > anecdotes). If you are winning combat against enemy units, you must be charging remnants from your killzone, as you mentioned.

 

Now you're insulting my opponents, are you? Granted, they don't do all that well against me, since I understand my army and know their army well enough to force the fight into my favor, but they are still capable players who obliterate other guys quite regularily with supposedly underpowered tyranids and non BS orks. Funny enough, I played one guy with my PAGK list, then my Dwing list, and I definitely felt a lot more pressure with the Dwing. Terminators face the same problem as they are sadly very comparable to PAGKs in durability but have much less ranged firepower and no ability to split targets to achieve maximum shooting efficiency.

 

If they feed their units to your gunline on a regular basis, they are subpar opponents and need to step up their game. I'm not insulting them, I'm pointing out the idiocy of feeding units to a gunline blindly. Tyranids are in a bit of a bind as their horde doesn't really scare you in melee (they tarpit more than anything), but Orks should be doing far better. Have them try different lists, go more infantry heavy, or field fast mobile threats to attack from other angles. Strikes hurt them, but they field three times your bodycount for less points (with pretty similar S4 output and a lot better melee output), and that is just Troops.

Splitting fire is the last thing you wanna do against a horde army. You have to annhilate things to at least the point of ignorable threat (ie 4-5 Boyz/Guardsmen/Termagaunts). That usually is going to require more than one unit to achieve, and seeing as the bulk of this job is going to be on the Strikes, they're both going to need to combine their firepower.

 

PAGKs are the more sensible general choice IMO. Terminators have their specific set of circumstances that govern when they are the better choice vs strikes, but assault capability can always be covered by the vastly more effective henchmen, so I don't feel a burning need for them.

 

Not really. Melee warbands suffer from being T3, in an army of MeQ. Shooty warbands get away with it to some extent, because they hang back and shoot you from long range (Jokaero lascannons, plasma cannon servitors, even Acolyte storm bolters are a decent stand-off range), and thus start to die later. Your melee warbands want to be on the front-line (to intercept melee threats that will demolish your Strikes), but they lack the durability of even Strikes. DCA are about as easy as Guardsmen to kill, Crusaders are decent but they're only half the squad and massed anti-infantry will still break their storm shields. The Raven does bring other substantial benefits (anti-tank on a mobile platform), but its a pretty expensive addition to a 1.5k list all the same. So, you might have one melee warband+Raven at best, its doubtful you'll have points for 2 such units. Which means one Strike squad is going to be vulnerable. Also, if they bait out your melee warband early, they can circumvent it.

 

That's kinda what I've been getting at in this debate. Terminators don't need another unit to be fielded, they can function in melee just fine and supply ample shooting for a nominally melee unit (although as we agree, its half what similar points of Strike would supply, with the obvious tradeoff that implies). At 1.5k, you won't have a lot of units on either side anyway. It would be better, in my opinion, to have a unit that does two tasks well, than one task well and one task poorly (requiring another unit to do that task for it).

[spartan249]

I'm much more intimidated by blobs that can destroy anything I throw at it, so that IG blob would have plasma/melta and missile/autocannon teams to keep me honest. Less boots on the ground, but those present are an actual imminent threat to me. Orks would need to field 3 rokkit launchers per mob to really get me sweating as well, as short range Bolters don't really phase me, as the bulk of the unit hinders successful application of firepower (reference the write up for my shooty henchmen + strike squad tactic).

 

Only time I initiate a charge with strikes is if the odds are heavily in my favor. If I get into a combat not of my design, then my firepower has failed, and the CC Bailout Team rides into action. A very rare occurrence, but has happened a few times. I also think having the ability to split off capabilities and apply them where it is needed is much more important then trying to ensure that each unit is capable in all phases of the turn. Having multiple capabilities in one unit means that at least some of those capabilities are not being used each turn, which can lead to missed opportunities all the time. In a game as short as 40k, every phase counts, and multiple units focusing on a capability gives you more options at the tactical level, as each can engage a different target at maximum effectiveness and coincidentally builds in a certain level of contingency planning should your offensive push prove to be more effective then anticipated.

 

As far as feeding units goes, it's kind of unavoidable, as clumping up and attempting to neutralize local superiority via tight formations ends badly when twin linked plasma cannons are involved. This puts infantry heavy armies in a lose lose situation: clump up and take the massive damage from the plasma, or spread out and be whittled to death by the flood of Storm Bolter rounds.

 

No question henchmen are fragile. They're cheap, so I don't care what happens to them after they have wrecked the most pressing threat present. I will gladly trade the measly points invested in the contingency plan for the crux of an opponent's strategy. Besides, ravens are basically an auto include now if you like having answers to threats, so the cc henchmen basically get a free ride.

[irwit]

Just to jump in here Im really liking this thread and learning a lot about the GK army.

 

However the topic is about the GK army list, not what a horde army is or whata godo hrode player is. So to get back on track, 20 PAGK and 10 GKT arent a million miles away in terms of points and will roughly do the same job so can we continue the discussion on what the rest of the army points will be spent on?

 

I know a lot of poeple have suggested teleporting NDK but thats over 250pts kitted up. Is this a bit much at 1.5k? Also for the extra points, what about swapping the termies for paladins? twice as many psy cannons and wounds for the extra 200pts. DO you thyink this would hold mid field better? You could always hide a small henchmen unit in the middle of them for scoring for not many more points.