1.5k: The B&C Special

[spartan249]

As it stands now, terminators are looking at the chopping block with a 2 to 1 vote. I'm waiting for at least 2 more votes to get a better representation.

 

Irwit proposes another change from terminators to paladins. Any seconds?

[spartan249]

Double Post...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm much more intimidated by blobs that can destroy anything I throw at it, so that IG blob would have plasma/melta and missile/autocannon teams to keep me honest. Less boots on the ground, but those present are an actual imminent threat to me. Orks would need to field 3 rokkit launchers per mob to really get me sweating as well, as short range Bolters don't really phase me, as the bulk of the unit hinders successful application of firepower (reference the write up for my shooty henchmen + strike squad tactic).

 

Yeah, they can always add that, its true. But more commonly, they're taking the heavy duty weaponry on other more accurate platforms (Veterans, Vendetta lascannon, demo-charge flamer Special Weapon teams, Demolishers, Heavy Weapon teams, Hydras etc). The blob's purpose is to die efficiently and score. Anyway, with that much flashlight, they can probably cause a few casualties on their own anyway.

 

Nobody takes rokkits on Boyz. BS2 is not a good pairing with 1 shot weapons. Big shootas are far more likely, although not 100% required (as the ranged dakka of the blob is more for a bit of softening up prior to a charge). Shootaz are storm bolters with range 18" dude, so if he gets even half the unit in range he's happy. They won't get into a protracted firefight with you anyway, your psycannons and higher BS mean the longer they delay assault the more Boyz die. Also, by the time they make charge range they should be down to 20 strong.

 

I also think having the ability to split off capabilities and apply them where it is needed is much more important then trying to ensure that each unit is capable in all phases of the turn.

 

But that's exactly the problem Eldar have, and why the Aspect system doesn't work on the tabletop (its great background, but terrible in game). Once you kill the melee warband, or tie it up elsewhere, your Strikes are vulnerable to enemy melee units closing the distance. Flexibility is what being MeQ is all about, its why we pay a premium on our infantry. It's why I don't use Strikes much anymore, except for DS denial, as shooty Henchmen are better as a specialised shooting unit. I have Purifiers for mass anti-infantry (quad psycannon is brutal, I don't mind paying the extra 95pts over a Strike squad with only two psycannons).

 

If you want to play an army where each unit is highly specialised into its role, play Eldar. We're Knights, we don't have the numbers to do only one thing well. Even Marine players usually eschew Tac squads these days, because they're just not as flexible as Bikers, Sternguard, BA Assault Marines etc.

 

As far as feeding units goes, it's kind of unavoidable, as clumping up and attempting to neutralize local superiority via tight formations ends badly when twin linked plasma cannons are involved. This puts infantry heavy armies in a lose lose situation: clump up and take the massive damage from the plasma, or spread out and be whittled to death by the flood of Storm Bolter rounds.

 

As I mentioned though, they have more options than just feeding their units to your gunline. If they used fast units to draw fire/assault key units, or weighed on one flank with a majority of force, they might force a different kind of fight. Spreading out will make no difference to your storm bolter damage, so they don't lose anything by going the standard 2" spread to minimise blast damage (thats like 40k 101, spreading out to neuter blasts).

 

No question henchmen are fragile. They're cheap, so I don't care what happens to them after they have wrecked the most pressing threat present. I will gladly trade the measly points invested in the contingency plan for the crux of an opponent's strategy. Besides, ravens are basically an auto include now if you like having answers to threats, so the cc henchmen basically get a free ride.

 

That is all true, but it doesn't change the fact you've spent 355 points on an AV12 plane and ten T3 models. It's still real points you have to spend on that combo, rather than something else. For ~100pts more, you can get a full TDA blob with double psycannon (no Banner though). Both units are perfectly viable, I'm just making the point that you are giving up other options to field the melee warband and its transport. And yeah, the Raven is useful in other roles, but it has to be for that price. Vendettas weigh in substantially cheaper, as do things like Night Scythes.

 

I know a lot of poeple have suggested teleporting NDK but thats over 250pts kitted up. Is this a bit much at 1.5k? Also for the extra points, what about swapping the termies for paladins? twice as many psy cannons and wounds for the extra 200pts. DO you thyink this would hold mid field better? You could always hide a small henchmen unit in the middle of them for scoring for not many more points.

 

No, its only 230 with greatsword+teleporter. You don't have to it give it guns, its just that the heavy incinerator is an amazing weapon.

 

Paladins are in real trouble in 6th edition. Wound allocation means nothing now, and they lost character status with the latest FAQ. People are already loading up on good hard-counters to Terminators (if not they should be). All it takes is a S8 hit and a failed save and your Paladin evapourates. Demo-charges, Fire Prisms, Demolisher cannons, lascannons, meltaguns, Forgefiend ecto-plasma cannons, mega-blastaz, Crytek lances....you are 55pts per model base, its a very expensive unit that can be hard-countered by cheaper enemy units.

 

For a 1.5k list, I would strongly vote against it. We aren't doing PaladinWing as a newcomer army. For all the internet hate for the list, it actually does require a competent and knowledgeable player to use properly. It's very punishing if you start losing models due to bad play or dice rolls. I'd prefer we stay away from it for now, and focus on the more common units in the codex.

 

 

The quad psycannon of the full PaladinStar is the draw of the unit (double psycannon can be found on regular TDA blob, Strikes, Purifier combat squads). It's melee threat is higher than TDA blob, but its a lot more expensive (475 for normal TDA double psycannon+Banner vs 655 quad psycannon+Banner Paladins). I really don't see the point, when you can get the firepower elsewhere cheaper, and the melee threat is the same really on TDA blob (WS5 is nice but you pay a huge premium for it, and they both have the same weapons, armour and attacks).

[Zeratul29]

Yeah..... no paladins for this list, RD has listed several points why to not take them in this edition, I do agree and have seen the same thing of people gearing up to take on that 2+ save

[spartan249]

The same problem applies to terminators as well though, so I have no idea why terminators are so great while Paladins stink. If anything, terminators are worse off because they are losing full models to any failed saves, not just ID weapons.

 

In any case, you play your game however you want bro. After playing with tactical marines a lot with the IHs, I see strike knights as truly versatile given that they can overpower units not designed for melee and put the hurt at range on those units that are.

 

And please... telling me to play another army? Who the hell are you to tell me how to enjoy my army? Arguments about strategies with units are fine, but this...

[irwit]

With terminators at the chopping block I will dive in a vote termies. Purely for looks and the fact that for me that's what grey knights are. I've never liked the idea of power armour grey knights. It just doesn't suit the fluff! The same way I've not really liked grand masters. It should be inquisitors leading grey knights into a lose lose scenario and coming out on top and covered in blood!

[adamv6]

Strikes get my vote.

 

Personally, I would always take units of Strikes over Termies.

 

My normal assault force (outside of the DCA's, I love my DCA's :)) is a purifier unit, armed with 3 incinerators, 2 hammers and 5 halberds. I put an Xenos inquisitor in PA, with Rad grenades, and Power Sword and level1 psyker. My purifiers eat everything in that config. 2A base, T-1, Hammerhand, rerolls to hit, 15 attacks on the charge at I6/AP3. Yes please.

 

Taking Strikes gives you the points to look at Purifiers, which eat hordes and demolish PA assault units.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The same problem applies to terminators as well though, so I have no idea why terminators are so great while Paladins stink. If anything, terminators are worse off because they are losing full models to any failed saves, not just ID weapons.

 

Because 475 points is cheaper than 630 points.

 

And please... telling me to play another army? Who the hell are you to tell me how to enjoy my army? Arguments about strategies with units are fine, but this...

 

Not saying that, and I'm sorry if I caused offence. I was merely saying, we're a MeQ army, we don't work as specialists. Eldar offer an army where units are highly specialised and require co-operation (Dragons break tanks but fold to bolters/melee, Banshees annhilate in melee but fold to 2+ armour or hordes, Scorpions burn through hordes and non-melee MeQ but fold to power weapons, etc etc). So if you want a force that works that way, play Eldar. Knights have to be generalists, which is why I dislike Strikes in my army. They just can't deal with melee. Notwithstanding, if you find they work for you, all good. I just think its misleading to others to say 'nah they're fine in melee'. They are not, a cursory look at their statline and rules tells you this.

 

Taking Strikes gives you the points to look at Purifiers, which eat hordes and demolish PA assault units.

 

Not really. As me and Spartan249 have argued back and forth, you need double the number of Strikes to edge out Terminators in the same role (scoring, holding ground, dakka). You can't just sub in a single Strike squad for a full TDA blob, then buy Purifiers with the leftover (you need additional points anyway). Purifiers definitely do hit hard and are a fantastic unit, but being Elites means less scoring usually (Crowe forces you down the path of a Purifier army, Grandmaster is a big expense for a 1.5k list).

 

That being said, I still take 1-2 Purifier squads when I can. Sometimes I swap them out for more Henchmen though. They're very nice when you get within 24" and can brace for full fire rate on the psycannons...but they still die like Strikes to ranged fire (melee is a different story of course). Seeing as we're building a beginner list in this thread, I'll vote for one squad, two if we find points later on.

[irwit]

Still all awesome info, I'm gearing up to buy my first box based from this thread ( sorry to the GKTs haters in here) but its going to have to be some termies :) Didn't realise previous to this how "standard" getting ten of them is? No one seems to of mentioned getting 5 of them. Any reason why?

 

edit: Also what allies are looking good for GKs? I know people mention IG but don't our henchmen do that already ? Also SOB I like the sounds of ( and the models are awesome too!) Lots of PA boltguns for pretty cheap.

[spartan249]

2 to 3 in strike's favor as it stands. I'll wait until tonight for any more input.

 

I'd have to look back to find motions for elites/heavy/fast, so let's get started on that too.

[Zeratul29]

10 terminators are a lot harder to take down then 5, and then you can put ina 2nd psycannon in the unit and then the Bro banner and psybolts then become a worthwhile upgrade

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Still all awesome info, I'm gearing up to buy my first box based from this thread ( sorry to the GKTs haters in here) but its going to have to be some termies Didn't realise previous to this how "standard" getting ten of them is? No one seems to of mentioned getting 5 of them. Any reason why?

 

5 Terminators don't accomplish anything, you might as well take a Strike squad and get extra bodies+firepower. The full blob on the other hand dominates the mid-field and can tank damage really well.

 

edit: Also what allies are looking good for GKs? I know people mention IG but don't our henchmen do that already ? Also SOB I like the sounds of ( and the models are awesome too!) Lots of PA boltguns for pretty cheap.

 

IG offer many things Henchmen do not. Sadly, I cannot get into why or how, as B&C policy is we only discuss Marine and Sister Ally options.

FYI, Sisters are terrible. If you want lots of bolter shots, invest in Acolyte Henchmen. They are dirt-cheap, they bring plasma guns as well (something the nuns lack), as they are equally bad in melee. All you really give up is the power armour, which is a big deal but not as much when you are T3 and easily focus fired. T4 is a big step up.

[irwit]

Still all awesome info, I'm gearing up to buy my first box based from this thread ( sorry to the GKTs haters in here) but its going to have to be some termies Didn't realise previous to this how "standard" getting ten of them is? No one seems to of mentioned getting 5 of them. Any reason why?

 

5 Terminators don't accomplish anything, you might as well take a Strike squad and get extra bodies+firepower. The full blob on the other hand dominates the mid-field and can tank damage really well.

 

edit: Also what allies are looking good for GKs? I know people mention IG but don't our henchmen do that already ? Also SOB I like the sounds of ( and the models are awesome too!) Lots of PA boltguns for pretty cheap.

 

IG offer many things Henchmen do not. Sadly, I cannot get into why or how, as B&C policy is we only discuss Marine and Sister Ally options.

FYI, Sisters are terrible. If you want lots of bolter shots, invest in Acolyte Henchmen. They are dirt-cheap, they bring plasma guns as well (something the nuns lack), as they are equally bad in melee. All you really give up is the power armour, which is a big deal but not as much when you are T3 and easily focus fired. T4 is a big step up.

 

I know what you mean on the sisters, but aren't they ignoring 2 out of 3 shots with that power armour compared to regular henchmen with the same toughness? They also have BS4 so get more hits in and better LD? I know PA is uselss against ap3 and higher but in a GK army with strike, purifiers and termies I doubt you will be using your higher AP weapons on the acolytes/sisters anyway ?

[spartan249]

Consider that a single sister costs a little less then 3x the cost of a bolter aco, combine it with the ability to use cover to your advantage, and the equation begins to clear up. No matter how high your BS is, nothing beats number of dice thrown about.

 

I don't personally think Sisters offer much to a GK list that can't be provided in-house besides the Celestine sized cockroach.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I know what you mean on the sisters, but aren't they ignoring 2 out of 3 shots with that power armour compared to regular henchmen with the same toughness? They also have BS4 so get more hits in and better LD? I know PA is uselss against ap3 and higher but in a GK army with strike, purifiers and termies I doubt you will be using your higher AP weapons on the acolytes/sisters anyway ?

 

It's the price per model. Acolytes with storm bolters are cheaper. As I said, power armour is nice, but on T3 models it doesn't make that huge a difference to the way they die. Sisters still fold in melee, and they have less dakka output (the BS4 is outweighed by the Acolytes have twice the shots at the same range). Leadership isn't an issue, shooty Henchmen have a cheap Divination Inquisitor for re-rolls and Stubborn Ld10, melee Henchmen have a Tech-Marine for LD9 and ATSKNF. They'll stick around until reduced to uselessness.

 

I don't personally think Sisters offer much to a GK list that can't be provided in-house besides the Celestine sized cockroach.

 

Not entirely true. Exorcists are awesome, Seraphim offer a decently priced fast element that aren't Interceptors. But yeah, Sisters lack good Troops, and when we already have Henchmen 'in faction', the case for Allying them is pretty weak.