Rule Interpretation question for Deathwing squad

[ForTheLion]

Ok ladies and gentlemen. I was submiting a list for one of my team tournament players and i had the following squad for one DA player in my team:

 

Deathwing Squad 240

TH/SSx3,TH/SS CML, CF/SB

 

Now the issue arose when i said that the CML is carried by the sargent. The TO claims that the sargent cannot carry it as the codex entry stated that any "terminator" can only equip it. And the "Terminator" sargent does not fall under the "terminator" category.

 

My interpretation is that the Termiantor Sargent is still a terminator and as such should fall under the category of "any terminator".

What is youre take on this?

[facmanpob]

My take is that the Sergeant isn't allowed to take the CML as he has a separate entry in the codex.

 

My other question is why you would want the CML on the Sergeant, bearing in mind you may lose him in challenges. I would keep the CML on one of the other dudes.

[Motorbike Mike]

Yeah I agree with Facman, he has his own entry and is therefore a seperate entity.

He's right about the challenges aswell, its too risky.

[ForTheLion]

well having precision strike on a 48" Heavy2 Str8 AP3 weapon is just too juicy to pass up. As for challenges, he still got 2+/3++...so isnt losing them any worse than any other member of the squad

[facmanpob]

well having precision strike on a 48" Heavy2 Str8 AP3 weapon is just too juicy to pass up. As for challenges, he still got 2+/3++...so isnt losing them any worse than any other member of the squad

I see your point about Precision Shot, I just worry that in a CC orientated squad (4 x TH/SS, 1 x SB/CF) you would want to spend as much time as possible in CC, so there is a good chance that your Serge will get into a challenge at some point. Its a question of balancing the chance of losing the CML this way vs the chance of rolling a 6 to hit. Anyway, I think its a moot point as I don't believe the sergeant can take the CML anyway. ^_^

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I agree wit famanpob. Rules as written only entrries marked as terminator get the CML upgrade. Terminator sergeant is a different entry thus not having access to some wargear.

[notmattlythgoe]

I'd have to say that the Sergeant can take the CML. Our FAQ clearly states that any scout, including the Scout Sergeant can take a sniper rifle with the line "Any Scout may replace his bolter with a

sniper rifle..." So why would that not be the exact same with the Terminator Sergeant?

[FarFromSam]

OOOHHH good point, I'll be watching this thread closely!

[Isiah]

I'd have to say that the Sergeant can take the CML. Our FAQ clearly states that any scout, including the Scout Sergeant can take a sniper rifle with the line "Any Scout may replace his bolter with a

sniper rifle..." So why would that not be the exact same with the Terminator Sergeant?

 

Yes Vet sarges can also have all weapon upgrades as per 'normal' veterans. But the DW sarge issue isn't specifically mentioned in the FAQ in relation to heavy weapon upgrades.

 

So on that basis alone I'd say he can't.

 

Cheers

I

[notmattlythgoe]

But, I'd argue since the scout part in the FAQ is actually a FAQ and not an amendment it is just clarifying how the reading should work. So any reading in the codex that says "Any :generic model: can take ______" should be read as anything with that tag on its name whether it be Scout or Terminator can take that option.

[facmanpob]

But, I'd argue since the scout part in the FAQ is actually a FAQ and not an amendment it is just clarifying how the reading should work. So any reading in the codex that says "Any :generic model: can take ______" should be read as anything with that tag on its name whether it be Scout or Terminator can take that option.

But that's just your extrapolation of a specific FAQ entry into a generic rule amendment. They have specifically answered a question about Scouts and Veterans, but haven't commented on Terminators. If they had wanted the Termy sergeant to be able to take the CML then they would have included it in the FAQ.

 

;)

[notmattlythgoe]

But, I'd argue since the scout part in the FAQ is actually a FAQ and not an amendment it is just clarifying how the reading should work. So any reading in the codex that says "Any :generic model: can take ______" should be read as anything with that tag on its name whether it be Scout or Terminator can take that option.

But that's just your extrapolation of a specific FAQ entry into a generic rule amendment. They have specifically answered a question about Scouts and Veterans, but haven't commented on Terminators. If they had wanted the Termy sergeant to be able to take the CML then they would have included it in the FAQ.

 

;)

 

That's my point, it's not a rule amendment, it's a clarification on how a rule should read. I'll give you an example of a real life situation.

 

Q: How do I open a can of Coke?

A: You pull up on the unfastened end of the tab.

 

Do I have to ask how to open a can of Pepsi now? No that explains how you open any can with a tab.

[facmanpob]

But, I'd argue since the scout part in the FAQ is actually a FAQ and not an amendment it is just clarifying how the reading should work. So any reading in the codex that says "Any :generic model: can take ______" should be read as anything with that tag on its name whether it be Scout or Terminator can take that option.

But that's just your extrapolation of a specific FAQ entry into a generic rule amendment. They have specifically answered a question about Scouts and Veterans, but haven't commented on Terminators. If they had wanted the Termy sergeant to be able to take the CML then they would have included it in the FAQ.

 

:)

 

That's my point, it's not a rule amendment, it's a clarification on how a rule should read. I'll give you an example of a real life situation.

 

Q: How do I open a can of Coke?

A: You pull up on the unfastened end of the tab.

 

Do I have to ask how to open a can of Pepsi now? No that explains how you open any can with a tab.

Ah, you are falling into the trap of applying common sense to a Games Workshop product! ;)

[Brother Immolator]

I am with notmattlythgoe, for once we must use and a little common sense when reading rules. Also there is a precedence with the scouts. It would be a little unwise with the wound allocation though.

[notmattlythgoe]

To further try to defend my opinion. Where this would differ is in say a tactical marine squad the Veteran Sergeant cannot take any of the SpaceMarine upgrades because that is not included in his profile name. If he was not intended to be able to take the upgrade his profile name would not include Terminator in it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Scout and terminators are different entries. Past lessons suggest we shouldn't extrapolate the behaviour of one unit to another. Remember when some bikes didn't get the +1 CCW attack for no apparent reason, yet some were FAQ'ed and some remained the same? Just saying...

[Harleqvin]

The Scout entry was altered in the FAQ now stating Second bullet point should read "Any model may...." Allowing the Sergeant to take a Sniper Rifle.

The CML, HF and AC part for DW squad has not been altered as such and because of that it is only "Terminator". Which the "Terminator Sergeant" is not part of. Until they change it to state "Any model may..." only normal Terminators can take CML, HF and AC.

[notmattlythgoe]

The Scout entry was altered in the FAQ now stating Second bullet point should read "Any model may...." Allowing the Sergeant to take a Sniper Rifle.

The CML, HF and AC part for DW squad has not been altered as such and because of that it is only "Terminator". Which the "Terminator Sergeant" is not part of. Until they change it to state "Any model may..." only normal Terminators can take CML, HF and AC.

 

That right there is the defining rule. Both entries for Scouts and Vets were altered to say "Any model.." So according to this the Sergeant cannot take the CML because it is not in line with the other entries. I have been swayed.

[Brother Immolator]

Well if there is a FAQ there it is obvious.

[Raven of the Wing]

Ah, you are falling into the trap of applying common sense to a Games Workshop product! :D

I lol'd

[Xyon]

I would also like to say that the entry for terminators does make a distinction between model types. When it says 'any model' for the close combat weapon options, but specifically says 'one terminator' for the shooting options.

[notmattlythgoe]

I would also like to say that the entry for terminators does make a distinction between model types. When it says 'any model' for the close combat weapon options, but specifically says 'one terminator' for the shooting options.

 

So really what they did with the FAQ was bring scouts and vets in line with the way terminators were worded.

[Isiah]

I would also like to say that the entry for terminators does make a distinction between model types. When it says 'any model' for the close combat weapon options, but specifically says 'one terminator' for the shooting options.

 

So really what they did with the FAQ was bring scouts and vets in line with the way terminators were worded.

 

Kind of up to a point, but the Vet entry wording was different to the Scout entry in the first place as the Vet sarge was never specifically mentioned in the upgrade text (so by RAW before faq he could get no upgrades whatsoever :lol: ). Scout sarge on the other hand was mentioned, but for limited gear only. But that has been changed via the faq. DW sarges remain a discrete item re certain upgrades as the wording in the Codex is clearly differentiating between model types. And that has never been changed. And that is where the confusion starts as some assume the Scout unit faq changes also effects DW unit by reason of both having similar original wording.

 

Phew. And breathe.

 

Cheers

I