Deep Striking and Skies of Blood

[LONE9653]

Brand new Forum member here... and yet to actually play the table top as well... however I've recently been hooked by a friend to get into the hobby.

 

I've been looking to make a really agile assault force (as I have no experience in this specific game, my tactics fall on other strategy games I've played in the past, and I have no illusions of grandeur in winning any of my first 20 games)

 

Back to the point.

 

As I understand it the Stormraven, is a beast of an assault vehicle. Cost A lot, Does A Lot, gets Shot out of the sky A lot.

From what I under stand if it ever goes to hover mood, survivability goes out the window...

 

So why not keep it in Zoom mode the whole time, use it as a gunship YAY... except if you wanted to use it as a transport as well, the rules state that units cant disembark from a zooming vehicle... Blood angels have the Skies of Blood to answer this (treated as a DS).

 

The scenario I propose is a bit intricate and no guarantee that it will work.

 

Lets say you have a beacon on the table. Your Stormraven is in reserves, rather than fly it out you opt to DS appropriately near the beacon. Still entering from reserves so you declare the speed that it enters Zooming (defense and offense benefits). Once it is on the board safe you declare to unload the troops, an IC and a dread.

 

As it is considered to be moving at cruising speed... does this allow me to use Skies of Blood? If so does that mean if I place it within the appropriate distance from the original beacon it wont scatter?

 

I know this can be really slow turn 3 assault. But it may surprise the stuff out of the opponents when you unload all the ravens weapons, a whole squads weapons and the dreads shooting attack.

 

Even if they shoot the Raven out of the sky during their next turn, hopefully you got a little bit of your moneys worth of fire power and your guys a little closer to your enemies hearts and minds.

 

And if they dont then next turn just start combat driving the raven around the board and continue to unload ammunition.

 

Sorry for the length. I'm really hoping that I'm correct in my interpretation of 6th core and 5th codex

[Kickrock]

When you use Skies of Blood, you are deep striking between your start point (SP) and your finish point (FP). Here is the problem with the logic of what you are suggesting.

 

When you arive from Reserve and enter from the Table Edge your SP is now the side of the table you entered from. Your FP would be your resting spot at the end of the turn. This would allow you to do this.

When you arive from Deep Strike your SP is unknown. It is someplace off the table, in space, not visable. Your FP is wherever you land (next to the beacon, for example). This means you can not make a Skies of Blood insertion onto the battle field as you do not have that SP, leaving you no middle ground.

 

The actual reason why you canot do this is the rule, unless I'm mistaken says you cannot make a Skies of Blood insertion on the turn you Deep Strike. I could be mistaken, I don't have my codex sitting in front of me, but... I'm 98% sure thats what it says.

 

I like where your head is at though... Hammernators dropping from the sky in an armored monstrosity.

[Morticon]

As it is considered to be moving at cruising speed... does this allow me to use Skies of Blood? If so does that mean if I place it within the appropriate distance from the original beacon it wont scatter?

 

First off welcome to the forums!!

 

Secondly, as mentioned, you sadly wouldnt be able to place the models over the line that the raven has moved since it is appearing on the board in one location, so it doesnt seem feasible at all.

[LONE9653]

When you use Skies of Blood, you are deep striking between your start point (SP) and your finish point (FP). Here is the problem with the logic of what you are suggesting.

 

When you arive from Reserve and enter from the Table Edge your SP is now the side of the table you entered from. Your FP would be your resting spot at the end of the turn. This would allow you to do this.

When you arive from Deep Strike your SP is unknown. It is someplace off the table, in space, not visable. Your FP is wherever you land (next to the beacon, for example).

 

That's the genius of it, the points of a line are part of the line, you can choose your FP (probably the only choice) as the drop point which is the only defined point in space.

 

If I zoomed the Raven onto the board, could I not skies of blood directly bellow the raven?

 

 

The actual reason why you canot do this is the rule, unless I'm mistaken says you cannot make a Skies of Blood insertion on the turn you Deep Strike. I could be mistaken, I don't have my codex sitting in front of me, but... I'm 98% sure thats what it says.

 

Just re-read all I could find in the codex and the errata... no mention of not being able to disembark with Skies of Blood for any reason just that the errata made it "if the Raven moved more than 6"" , please let me know if I missed a special deep strike entry.

 

That section is actually the part I was worried about.

 

The way I see it is that they errata'ed the line because the previous entry was talking about disembarking during the shooting phase. The errata keeps it during the movement phase.

 

Technically your unit didnt move any inches at all just appeared on the board.... however the speed in which it moves determines the number of shots. So when it DS it is moving combat speed (equivalent to 6")... gets to shoot X number of times based on its movement. Would this inference of characteristics not apply to disembarkation (special rules that apply to how far/fast the transport moved)?

 

-----------------------

 

If there is still a problem with the DS aspect...

 

The raven could still zoom in, Skies of blood near a beacon... negating the scatter/mishap. Doe sthat unit still only get to shoot as the skies of blood counts as a DS? If so then the means to my end are still achieved? Because I will still get to shoot with all models that just arrived.

 

The whole point of this idea was to eliminate the piecemeal effect of units arriving in DPs. Essentially you get one roll that says 1 gunship, up to 2 units (no jump packs), and a dread show up.

[Shaggy12009]

I believe it's in the FAQ that you can't use skies of blood when you deep strike. However, you can zoom in 30" and use skies of blood. Since the squad is deploying as per deep strike, they can make use of an existing beacon. Say, from a drop pod. It's a semantic difference, but it works. Bonus is you'll have the squad that arrived by drop pod on turn 1 to add to the weight of fire, but you'll have a max range of 30" from your board edge.

[Kickrock]

Now, here is one to think about.

 

If you take a locator beacon on the Storm Raven (I beleive its an option, atleast for Grey Knights), can you Skies of Blood onto the Locator Beacon on the Storm Raven, just land behind it? I mean... you are inserting via Deep Strike, and the locator beacon allows you to land within 6", correct?

[Morollan]

Now, here is one to think about.

 

If you take a locator beacon on the Storm Raven (I beleive its an option, atleast for Grey Knights), can you Skies of Blood onto the Locator Beacon on the Storm Raven, just land behind it? I mean... you are inserting via Deep Strike, and the locator beacon allows you to land within 6", correct?

 

Yes you can but you would only be able to do it on the turn after it arrives from reserve as the beacon has to be on the table at the start of the turn on which it is used.

[LONE9653]

I believe it's in the FAQ that you can't use skies of blood when you deep strike. However, you can zoom in 30" and use skies of blood. Since the squad is deploying as per deep strike, they can make use of an existing beacon. Say, from a drop pod. It's a semantic difference, but it works. Bonus is you'll have the squad that arrived by drop pod on turn 1 to add to the weight of fire, but you'll have a max range of 30" from your board edge.

 

Is the FAQ different than the 1.1 errata ?

 

Now, here is one to think about.

 

If you take a locator beacon on the Storm Raven (I beleive its an option, atleast for Grey Knights), can you Skies of Blood onto the Locator Beacon on the Storm Raven, just land behind it? I mean... you are inserting via Deep Strike, and the locator beacon allows you to land within 6", correct?

 

Yes you can but you would only be able to do it on the turn after it arrives from reserve as the beacon has to be on the table at the start of the turn on which it is used.

 

If I am forced to zoom on then it isnt too bad I just dont get to DS my guys into the heart of the enemy.

 

But still the inability for your enemy to really react (outside of the special rules guys)

 

If anyone is interested in my army list idea, I can post it, I would like to anyone else’s take on my insanity. My friend plays Tau/nids so I’m a little skewed because he keeps making recommendations on what he has seen other BA players successfully/attempt to pull off against him.

 

In regards to the beacons and needing to be on the table, I know most people aren’t using them but the scouts are the option I want to roll with. That and a single drop pod. That way I can have three beacons on the table turn 1. I’m hoping that is enough that my opponent doesn’t whip them all out before the Gunship arrives.

 

Basically infil the scouts in a pincer maneuver. Then Drop the pod on the current heavy enemy side, or reinforce on their weak side… or all together a third point on the board.

 

If all beacons are whipped, then I can always just zoom on the board (which is potentially the better option now, as based on the rules clarification/confirmation either:

I can DS the raven in zoom mode and the units inside cant Skies of Blood out and I get 4 shots with the raven

I can DS the raven in at Hover mode, making it a sitting duck the next time my opponent gets to shoot and I only get two shots due to it being a skimmer. And the Units inside can disembark.

Or Zoom on between the minimum and max speed up to 30 something inches, but the ship gets to shoot most armament, the units get to bail out enroute, and also get to fire

 

I know I will probably be able to find it in the core book when I get back home, but what is a standard table size? Will cruising speed zooming get my guys across the main battle line?

[mmaarrkk]

Dont forget you cant assault while using skies of blood, so I cant see the point in it as you have descent of angels on your jump packers as standard? unless you are using skies of blood for non jump packers? in that case I would rather use drop pods

[LONE9653]

Dont forget you cant assault while using skies of blood, so I cant see the point in it as you have descent of angels on your jump packers as standard? unless you are using skies of blood for non jump packers? in that case I would rather use drop pods

 

Correct, for my purposes Skies of Blood was only for the turn I was hoping to DS the Raven. And yeah the plan was to fill the transport spaces with Assault marines Sans Jump Packs (using the dedicated transport slot to bring a cheaper Razorback on the field as a starting unit.) and dreads dont get jump packs anyway.

 

But with drop pods you are not guaranteed to get all your units at the same time, this way you get all or none ( know all eggs in one basket) But better than landing one unit that gets decimated and then the next turn the other unit shows up and suffers the same fate. Plus as long as the Raven is out that might be the prime target of your opponent leaving your units to run a muck underneath.

[mmaarrkk]

You are guaranteed to get half your drop pods first turn, buy drop pods instead of razorbacks for free iirc. Spam them and job done, you dont have to start the assault marines in the pods either.

 

With some not very good razorbacks on the board they can get taken out quickly (I usually take them out with combi melta sternguard) and you are not guranteed to get the SR in, last game I had with one didnt come in till turn 4.

[Calnus]

Best advice I have is if you want to DS into the heart of the enemy, use your Jump Packs. No need for anything fancier than that, you get the reduced scatter, save points not buying the (hideously overcosted for BA) locator beacons, and you get to re-roll the reserve roll, a luxury your gunships do not enjoy.

 

Now, I'm personally loving the Stormravens for zooming on turn 2, blowing something up, hovering turn 3, blowing something up, and the contents assault something turn 3 as well. You've got the potential to wreck 3+ targets in 2 turns (up to 5 with PotMS), and you're only easy to hit after you've done the bulk of your damage. A lot of times, I'll find that I put the gunship in hover, and the contents it just unloaded get ignored because everyone wants to shoot down the plane. Which then evades, leaves board the next turn, and comes back in turn 5 for a last-minute save by blowing something else off the board.

[Brother Chris]

Interesting. Slightly allied to this is the confusion(for me) of the new rules allowing the Storm Raven either to count as a flyer, zooming, or a fast skimmer (as previously), hovering. Does this mean that the Storm Raven can never start on the board (as a flyer), must always deep strike and therefore can never use skies of blood in turn one? Or could it be defined as 'Hovering' and thus deployed on the table right from the start?

[JamesI]

Interesting. Slightly allied to this is the confusion(for me) of the new rules allowing the Storm Raven either to count as a flyer, zooming, or a fast skimmer (as previously), hovering. Does this mean that the Storm Raven can never start on the board (as a flyer), must always deep strike and therefore can never use skies of blood in turn one? Or could it be defined as 'Hovering' and thus deployed on the table right from the start?

Must start in reserve. Does not have to deep strike though, can enter through normal reserves and can use skies of blood the turn it arrives.

[mmaarrkk]

It can also come on as hovering and disembark normally

[First0f0ne]

I have been running a SR with a smaller death company ( 6-8 guys) with 3ish power axes and NO chappy.

 

This cargo is killy enough to threaten most units in the game, costs less than 200 points, and is challenge shenanigans proof.

Throw in a DC dread on the Raven for even more fun.

 

Run down how I use them most games:

 

Come on board turn 2 or 3 shoot 1 or 2 tanks if I can line them up with where my Ravens LZ will be.

 

On the SRs next turn go hover, move 6", deploy DC 6". Shoot raven at more tanks. Raven will now get a 5+ jink but will be hit like a skimmer. The thing is though, yes, its fragile but the opponent has to choose which threat is most dangerous. A super killy Dread(possibly),An ass kicking DC, or a hovering tank killer(which should now be out of missles to shoot).

 

You can run this set up for less than 400 points, And while it can be destroyed when your opponent rolls a bunch of 6s, when they don't you murder :).

 

I've never had mine shot down with men inside, I've had to skies of blood them a few times due to shaken and immobilized pen results but, I have been lucky with the crash and burn thing.