Need help with wraiths/destroyer lord

[R4D10FR33]

Hey guys. My friend runs what I gather is a pretty standard necron list including:

 

-5 wraiths: 2 whip coils

-Destroyer lord: 2+ save, scythe, MSS

 

I'm having a really tough time killing them. Shooting them to death is really difficult because he keeps his lord in the front with a 2+ save or a 2+ LOS, and they're fast enough that I rarely get more than two turns of shooting at them before they're on me. I've also been profoundly unsuccessful in close combat, here's how it usually goes down:

-someone charges

-challenges go out. No matter what, his lord ends up either in a duel with a justicar or my Grand Master.

-MSS goes off, so i have a bad chance of even getting swings on him.

-My challengee either whiffs or slaps himself around.

-Non-whip coiled GKs go, sometimes kill one or two wraiths

-Wraiths rend everything to death, lord annhilates whoever he was challenging(lol s7ap1).

-thunderhammer/whip coiled GKs go and kill nothing usually.

 

I can handle the wraiths, since I use force weapons over hammerhand if I only have one charge available (if the GM is dead or something). My problem is with the Lord- how am I supposed to kill him? Here are my options, as I see them:

1. Empyrean brain mines. Might be okay with I2 on his lord, even then it's a crapshoot though, since I have to contend with MSS every turn.

2. Take a brotherhood champion. I don't see that working because

-we play at low enough points that I can't take another HQ for a warlord, effectively giving him a free Slay the Warlord point

-thanks to the FAQ he can force me to use my one warp charge to activate force weapon on myself, denying me a heroic strike. I can mitigate this by putting halberds on Mooks, meaning that they have the chance to spend their own warp charge on force weapons so he can still do his heroic strike when he dies.

-He still gets reanimation protocols vs the heroic strike.

3. Take Crowe. Similar to the BC, but he doesn't have to deal with force weapon stuff, and he rends on 4s if he does manage to make attacks.

4. Give the GM a hammer and EBM and cross my fingers that I can survive to use them.

 

Is there anything I'm missing? Psychic powers from a librarian? Paladin shenanigans? Purifiers or something?

[AnImA8]

Post your list please :P

[R4D10FR33]

Grand Master

-psybolt, blind grenades

 

 

GK strike squad

-1 hammer, justicar has halberd, psybolt

 

GK strike squad

-1 hammer, justicar has halberd, psybolt

 

GK strike squad

-1 hammer, justicar has halberd, psybolt

 

 

Dreadnought

2 TL autocannons, psybolt ammo

 

Dreadnought

2 TL autocannons, psybolt ammo

 

 

I can definitely switch things up, since I'm mostly proxying at this point.

[Vash]

Well the problem is that you dont have any fire power at all.

Psycannons are pretty much a must for pure GK armies if you want fire power. Psybolt comes in handy after the psycannons are added.

 

I am no big fan of the psifel dreads my self. They had their uses in 5th, and still have some potential in 6th I guess. But never used one.

 

I would trade them off for something more durable, meaning something with wounds and toughness.

 

A unit of terminators could help you out. Sure they are twice as expensive, but grants you a 5++ or a 4++ in close combat against those rending attacks. Also, they have a base of 2 attacks, so there will be more attacks swung their way if you have any survivours.

 

 

Thing is, I have faced a similar setting, and never really lost. I think you are on a bad luck streak.

 

5 Wraiths equals 20 attacks on a charge. 10 hits as they will hit you on 4+. An average of 1.7 rending wounds (4++ save on sword wielding terminators), and 6.9 wounds (2+ save on terminators, 3+ on your strikes).

 

Also I do think a grand master is pretty expensive in lower points. I would go for a brotherhood champion or an inquisitor my self.

[spartan249]

Librarian with Warp Rift. Preferrably in a raven, maybe with a retinue of knights.

 

Parcel out the strikes and set them far enough apart that multi-charging is nigh impossible. Once his shock unit emerges, warp rift that unit. Chances are that they are far away from any spyders, so they have little defense against it. No LO,S! against it, and it's initiative tests. Barring some serious luck, 2/3 of the unit will go down, allowing you to neutralize the rest and go on with your life.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You need to cause a lot of wounds to the unit to get the Wraiths to pop. 2 wounds and 3++ is annoying to break.

 

With that in mind, I'd get as many psycannons and storm bolters as possible. Purifiers are great at this. For killing off the rest of his list, plasma cannon servitors are great.

 

For tying up his Wraiths, a Terminator blob is a good way to go. Take a warding stave on the Justicar to tie up the Destroyer Lord, take hammers on the rest of the squad (it makes his whip coils useless, unlike halberds). I'd attach Coteaz for 'Sanctuary' as well, it'll force them down to I1 as well (you probably won't deny the charge though, they're Jump Infantry).

[R4D10FR33]

I already went over why the BCh wouldn't work, but warp rift is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a ton. Couple of questions though:

-Can Warp Rift be used in overwatch?

-Why wouldn't he get reanimation protocols from warp rift?

 

And @Reclusiarch Darius would Sanctuary affect the Wraiths with Wraithflight? Or is it for the Lord (who is still jump infantry?) Also, would paladins work better or does the new wound allocation thing screw them up?

[spartan249]

He would, but wraiths don't get it anyway, and once their done, he's in dire straits.

 

No psychic powers on overwatch. You'd have to either hope he whiffs a charge or sacrifice a combat squad to get him in position.

[L30n1d4s]

Another option is to use Henchmen, either shooty or close combat variants:

 

Shooty Henchmen --- [Coteaz + 3MM Servitors + 2 Jokaeros + 6 Psykers + Chimera] = 5 MM S8 AP1 shots... wounds DL on a 2+ with no save, if he LoS, then Wraiths get their 3++, but any fail means they ID because of S8).... also, one large S8 AP1 blast from Psykers, which wounds the Destroyer Lord with no save if it hits him... again, if he LoS to Wraiths, any failed 3++ saves are ID to them, since double toughness... all of this can get Prescience re-rolls to Hit from Coteaz with Divination powers (if you are lucky, you can get Misfortune for Coteaz's 2nd power, making the DL and Wraiths re-roll all successful saving throws).

 

Assault Henchmen --- [Techmarine (Rad grenades, Warding Stave) + 10 DCAs (with Power Axe and Power Maul each) + Storm Raven] = on the charge, that is 40 S6 attacks using Mauls (with HH and Rad Grenades from Techmarine, they become in essence S7 vs T3 and S7 vs T5 for the DL) ... if the Techmarine challenges (using his Warding Stave to stay alive), the DCA make 40 attacks, cause on average 26 hits, on average 20 wounds, of which the Wraith's 3++ will save all but 7.... because Wraiths are reduced to T3 by Rad Grenads, the S6 attacks are double toughness and will ID the Wraiths, meaning that all 5 Wraiths should go down in the first round of combat... Wraiths Striking back should cause 15 attacks, 7-8 hits, 5-6 wounds, and 3-4 unsaved wounds after the DCA 5++... definitely a good trade, 4 DCAs for 5 wraiths.... as for the challenge, the Techmarine can keep himself alive with 2++ and use his Servo Arms (if he isn't mindshackled) to ignore the DL's armor... also the, DL is reduced to T5 by rad grenades, so that should help as well.

[Kickrock]

I was coming to tell you three things, one of them being what L30n1d4s had said about shooty Henchmen. You drop meltas or plasma onto this cat he is going to go down.

 

The second thing I was going to say was possibly drop a Dreadnought and pick up a Vindicare Assassin. You can pick him off fairly easy with Ap1. It almost always auto pens vehichles. And you can allocate wounds to who you want to in a unit, so picking off lets say, Aspiring Champions, hiding Sorcs, Devistator Sgts and Blood Angel Priests is not a problem.

 

The third thing I was going to say is consider dropping a (or both) dreadnought for a Dreadknight with a Teleporter and Sword. Hell, might not even need the teleporter unless you wanna jump on him turn 1/2! S10 AP2 attacks with rerolls. Pretty mean in CC.

[Gentlemanloser]

And you can allocate wounds to who you want to in a unit, so picking off lets say, Aspiring Champions, hiding Sorcs, Devistator Sgts and Blood Angel Priests is not a problem.

 

6th nerfed the Vindicare.

 

I assaign my AP1 wound to the Destoryer Lord.

 

2+ Lo,S! and it goes to a Wraith with a 3++ save.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Shooty Henchmen --- [Coteaz + 3MM Servitors + 2 Jokaeros + 6 Psykers + Chimera] = 5 MM S8 AP1 shots... wounds DL on a 2+ with no save, if he LoS, then Wraiths get their 3++, but any fail means they ID because of S8).... also, one large S8 AP1 blast from Psykers, which wounds the Destroyer Lord with no save if it hits him... again, if he LoS to Wraiths, any failed 3++ saves are ID to them, since double toughness... all of this can get Prescience re-rolls to Hit from Coteaz with Divination powers (if you are lucky, you can get Misfortune for Coteaz's 2nd power, making the DL and Wraiths re-roll all successful saving throws).

 

That is by far the worst idea. They have 3++, they literally don't care. You'll get one shot off, maybe melt a Wraith, then they'll steamroller you in melee. Multi-meltas on infantry are terrible. On Relentless platforms like Bikers or on vehicles they are great, but not on infantry.

 

Assault Henchmen --- [Techmarine (Rad grenades, Warding Stave) + 10 DCAs (with Power Axe and Power Maul each) + Storm Raven] = on the charge, that is 40 S6 attacks using Mauls (with HH and Rad Grenades from Techmarine, they become in essence S7 vs T3 and S7 vs T5 for the DL) ... if the Techmarine challenges (using his Warding Stave to stay alive), the DCA make 40 attacks, cause on average 26 hits, on average 20 wounds, of which the Wraith's 3++ will save all but 7.... because Wraiths are reduced to T3 by Rad Grenads, the S6 attacks are double toughness and will ID the Wraiths, meaning that all 5 Wraiths should go down in the first round of combat... Wraiths Striking back should cause 15 attacks, 7-8 hits, 5-6 wounds, and 3-4 unsaved wounds after the DCA 5++... definitely a good trade, 4 DCAs for 5 wraiths.... as for the challenge, the Techmarine can keep himself alive with 2++ and use his Servo Arms (if he isn't mindshackled) to ignore the DL's armor... also the, DL is reduced to T5 by rad grenades, so that should help as well.

 

This is the polar opposite. He can't really deal with the Raven (it'll fly through telsa destructor just fine), and once you get the drop on him its all over. And yeah, challenging with the Tech-Marine is fantastic, nothing like the expression on his face when you tell him what the warding stave does lol.

 

The second thing I was going to say was possibly drop a Dreadnought and pick up a Vindicare Assassin. You can pick him off fairly easy with Ap1. It almost always auto pens vehichles. And you can allocate wounds to who you want to in a unit, so picking off lets say, Aspiring Champions, hiding Sorcs, Devistator Sgts and Blood Angel Priests is not a problem.

 

Vindicare can't kill the Lord sadly, due to stupid 'Look Out Sir' wording. Yay, GW don't know their own rules...

 

The third thing I was going to say is consider dropping a (or both) dreadnought for a Dreadknight with a Teleporter and Sword. Hell, might not even need the teleporter unless you wanna jump on him turn 1/2! S10 AP2 attacks with rerolls. Pretty mean in CC.

 

Not a bad plan, just hope he doesn't Mindshackle you. Remember to challenge, and to turn on force weapon (so when you break the 3++ they die straight away).

[Kickrock]

Whoops, forgot about look out sir... That changes things a bit. Dreadknight should still do the trick.

[adamv6]

Shooty Henchmen --- [Coteaz + 3MM Servitors + 2 Jokaeros + 6 Psykers + Chimera]

 

Woohoo, lets not do this... Psykers peril (which they seem to do 99% of the time) and all pop, squad takes a leadership test and fails...

 

6 Psykers in a unit with bog standard Aco's for ablative wounds. They can't use Coteaz's leadership stat for their psychic barrage, so pointless joining them to a 'quisitor.

 

Jokaeros (IMHO) are better joined to Heavy Bolter Servitors anyway, and the 36" range fills a hole in the GK arsenal. Joining a 100 point HQ to servitors is also (IMHO) a crazy idea and excruciatingly wasteful.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Jokaeros (IMHO) are better joined to plasma cannon Servitors anyway, and the 36" range fills a hole in the GK arsenal. Joining a 100 point HQ to servitors is also (IMHO) a crazy idea and excruciatingly wasteful.

 

Fixed. Also, I don't think Coteaz is wasted with a shooty warband, the Divination powers are pretty much geared towards buffing firepower (especially the 'Ignore Cover' power, which is brutal on low AP guns). Preventing Mind-Lock is also important.

 

I'm actually on the fence about my Jokaero. Been thinking about just taking more Henchmen instead, 70pts is a lot.

[spartan249]

Do not try the dreadknight. MSS screws them over hardcore. No joke, that is the worst idea yet, not the henchmen.

[R4D10FR33]

I'm really digging the Techmarine/DCA idea, I'm going to try that out.

[Babel_Triumphant]

I don't play grey knights, but I think you could probably munch them up via weight of fire. Dump a bunch of S5 storm bolter fire on the wraiths and they'll die. Since you use the toughness of the majority of the squad, the lord can't benefit from his high toughness and you wound on a 3+.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Do not try the dreadknight. MSS screws them over hardcore. No joke, that is the worst idea yet, not the henchmen.

 

3D6 on Leadership 10...you still have good odds to pass. Its a problem, but its not automatic, its like Runes of FaceMelt (I've forced psychic powers through it as well). Also, only the Lord can attack you in a challenge. At the very least you'll delay them a turn or two while they murder him.

 

I don't play grey knights, but I think you could probably munch them up via weight of fire. Dump a bunch of S5 storm bolter fire on the wraiths and they'll die. Since you use the toughness of the majority of the squad, the lord can't benefit from his high toughness and you wound on a 3+.

 

Oh yeah, cos he's T6, didn't think of that. He'll still pawn wounds onto the Wraiths till they're dead though, and he can always detach for a multi-assault.

 

Has anyone considered bringing an Allied Librarian for 'Null Zone'? Just thinking that might make a great tool for weakening them.

[NoLifeKing]

Since i have a hammer on my gm i rarely have problems killing anything that is NOT an eternal warrior.

[R4D10FR33]

Oh yeah, cos he's T6, didn't think of that. He'll still pawn wounds onto the Wraiths till they're dead though, and he can always detach for a multi-assault.

Oh man, I think we've been playing him as T5, I didn't even check his actual stats. That means that even a s10 thunder hammer wouldn't ID him, I'd need something like warp rift or DCA spam to do anything to him.

[spartan249]

Don't use a null zone libby with paladins/terminators or near Cc henchmen. It affects us as well, since we're AoC.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a Necron player and I can tell you what my Wraiths and Destroyer Lord don't like about Grey Knights is their fire power. Put enough wounds on fhem and they'll fail saves. The trick is to fire from different angles so the Destroyer Lord can't take all the wounds.

 

The DCA idea is pretty good for that very reason.

 

Now, I can't stress this enough, do not charge with a Dreadknight! Even with taking into account Mind Shackles Scarabs there is always the risk he'll just decline any challenge and you'll be hit with 15-18 S6 Rending strikes and struggle to break through his invulnerable saves. And what happens when Necron players cotton on to taking 2 Destroyer Lords in their Wraiths squads?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Oh man, I think we've been playing him as T5, I didn't even check his actual stats. That means that even a s10 thunder hammer wouldn't ID him, I'd need something like warp rift or DCA spam to do anything to him.

 

Nah, just use your force weapon ability instead of 'Hammerhand'. He's not immune to Instant Death (don't see any Eternal Warrior). It's annoying we have to go nemesis hammer in challenges, as every man and his dog takes the weave+shifter combo (including Zandrekh aka Best Lord By Far).

 

Don't use a null zone lobby with paladins/terminators or near Cc henchmen. It affects us as well, since we're AoC.

 

(facepalm) GW why do you make my brain hurt? First Rune Priests, now this.

 

Now, I can't stress this enough, do not charge with a Dreadknight! Even with taking into account Mind Shackles Scarabs there is always the risk he'll just decline any challenge and you'll be hit with 15-18 S6 Rending strikes and struggle to break through his invulnerable saves. And what happens when Necron players cotton on to taking 2 Destroyer Lords in their Wraiths squads?

 

If they don't Rend, I basically don't care. If he declines the challenge, he can't attack at all, which is fine by me. MSS is annoying but like I said, not automatic. Double Destroyer Lord means no Crypteks, which I'm happy about. Anyway, its not like I just send in the DK. I'll shoot them up first to get rid of a few Wraiths.

 

PsyDreads are actually good in this matchup too, now that I think about it. Spam S8 until they fail their invul, then Wraiths pop. You'll probably only get two rounds of shooting, but every little bit helps.