Tyear Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Don't know if this is the place to post this but this happened last game: I had my sorcerer on bike tagging along with a group of bikers. So anyway to cut a story short. I pop a BT (Black Templar) Rhino that has his EC in there. It explodes, does some wounds etc. The whole shebang. I target his EC with Hemorrhage (which I got from rolling Biomancy), he fails his T test. So then the model dies, right? Because he said that the EC also had an Inv save 4+ I don't know the BT codex and was a bit loathe to look it up on the i-net. Anyway, he saved that and went on along his merry way. Now, was he in the right or do I have to push his face in next time I see him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp4rky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Haemorrhage says "no armour or cover saves allowed" so this stops the EC taking his usual armour save but unfortunately it doesn't stop him taking an invulnerable save. Your opponent was correct I'm afraid. Also, if he had failed his invulnerable save then he would lose a wound and not necessarily die (because the EC has 2 wounds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifrit446 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Well, I'm not sure if you'd be able to target the unit inside after you've already shot the rhino with the rest of the bikers...*scratches head* But yes, he messed his Champ's rules up. You can only claim the invul save in close combat unless they FAQ'ed it. So yeaaaaaaaah, you should've killed him :P Hope this helps -Ifrit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp4rky Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Ohhh... further to what I said and to back up what Ifrit446 says above, the EC's Invulnerable save is only usable in close combat so no, he couldn't use it! I didn't realise that the EC had an unusual Invulnerable save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 Well I thought, since the Sorcerer wasn't a 'part' of the squad, he was just tagging along. He had not joined etc. Then he was free to shot at whatever he wanted, or am I in the wrong here? Also, BT players *Shakes fist* I'll get him next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp4rky Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Unfortunately for as long as a character is joined to a unit he counts as being part of the unit for most purposes. This means that he can only shoot and assault the same enemy unit as the unit he has joined, this goes for psychic powers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 But apparently he hadn't joined? So it would have been completly ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 if he was within 2" of the unit at the end of the movement phase, he was joined to the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Although the Sorcerer's distance relative to the unit hasn't been given. All we know is that the Biker Squad was close enough to pop the Rhino. And the Sorcerer was close enough to use Hemorrhage on the Champion. And that the other player got out of his Champion getting killed by lying about the Invul Save. Since the OP knows there's a difference between "joining" a unit and "tagging" along, I would hope that he was at least following the rules that he was aware of. On a side note, I noticed that the paperback BRB from DV has a Profile Compendium of sorts with the profile sheet from every Codex in it. Can't think of the Page number and it's a couple hundred miles away, but doesn't the bigger, hardcover BRB have the same thing? At the very least that can be used to check on stats since Invul Save is a stat right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachymike123 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 not sure about the paperback rulebook but hopefully this will help: p.31 codex: black templars HQ section Emperor's Champion 'the armour of faith the armour of faith is artificer armour and confers a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat that the Emperor's Champion may use instead of his normal armour save. this would indicate to me from personal experience that the rulebook compendium will have an asterix next to the save value and at the bottom say 'these units have additional rules please see codex:x'. having looked at the faq for C:BT i can't see any amendment to this so the codex takes precidence. in case any of you need it http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...mplars_v1.1.pdf happy templar hunting and revenge :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 I had him at a cool 3 inches behind the biker squad. Gamey sure, but hey they were his meatshields. I like some of the new powers, they are actually quite good. And thanks for that clarification Leinmann, we've rescheduled a match. So I'm gonna be bringing out the 'pain' again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Just make sure the EC stays dead this time :wacko: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 regardless of him being wrong about the inv save, couldn't he have look out sired it onto another model anyway(or was the champion on his own?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 I don't believe so, the rules specifically say: Haemorrhage is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 12".The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed If the target is slain, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives, or there are no suitable targets within range. So I would guess that would negate look out sirs etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nathan Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 i dont know as if your suffereing the wound and therefore have to allocate it, and as a witchfire its a ranged shooting power. course look out sir still has the fact that it kills the marine and possibly more, depending on the nuber in the squad and successive rolls... and to fair to the tamplar player i would have asumed his inv worked like any other one ive came accross recently and works all the time so it may just be a mistake on his behalf so do make sure you point it out to him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 I don't believe so, the rules specifically say: Haemorrhage is a focussed witchfire power with a range of 12".The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed If the target is slain, randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives, or there are no suitable targets within range. What's of note here on top of the other things already discussed is that if the Emperor's Champion hadn't taken a wound from elsewhere already (which wasn't specified in the OP), he wouldn't have died anyway, being a model with two wounds and Haemorrhage only causing a wound, rather than causing to a removal from the table or Instant Death. But indeed, the Invulnerability is only when locked in close combat. You wouldn't believe how many times I've told that to the people at the LGS - yet every damn time they say to take my invul roll against a shooting attack :) I don't even know where the heck people keep getting the idea of an universal invul save from, because the statline doesn't list it and the word description clearly states it is in close combat. I wish it was "universal", but I suppose the Emperor only protects to a point in this case :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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