Pure GKs + SoB Allies

[L30n1d4s]

I read about how recently a SoB army with GK allies won best general in a tournament (much to the consternation of the Internets ;) ) and it got me thinking.... maybe GK can use them effectively as allies. After all, they seem to bring a couple items to the fight that non-henchman GK armies generally lack:

 

-Cheaper Troops options with relatively good value (i.e. SoB squads)

-Fast moving melta options (i.e. Dominions with MGs, Seraphim with Inferno Pistols, etc.)

-Long Range, high strength, low AP shooting (i.e. Exorcists)

-Cheap, capable Special Characters (i.e. Uriah Jacobus for buffing DCAs, St Celestin for beating up MEQs)

 

Based on this, I tried to put together a reasonable GK list with SoB support. Here is what I came up with:

 

HQ

-Draigo

*St Celestine

 

TR

-5 GK Paladins with 2 MCed Psycannons

-Solodin with MC Daemonhammer

*10 SoB with Rhino, double MGs

 

FA

-Stormraven

*5 Seraphim with 4 Inferno Pistols

 

HS

-Dreadknight with Greatsword

-Dreadknight with Greatsword

-Dreadknight with Greatsword

*Exorcist

--Aegis Defense Line with Quadgun

 

Exactly 2000 points!

 

Draigo goes with Pallies and moves as required (or mans the quadgun and defends the ADL), Celestine move with the Seraphims and nips at the enemy's flanks SoB in rhino maneuver for objectives, Solodin rides in the Stormraven to make it scoring and assault out and tie up a unit as required. Draigo makes as many DKs scoring as possible (i.e. Grand Strategy) and they charge or DS at the enemy lines.... working in conjunction with the Seraphim/Celestine, I think they make quite a "dual threat"... finally, Exorcist sits back in the ADL and shoots away while getting a 4+ cover save.

 

Thoughts? Anyone had success with a GK + allied Sisters list out there?

[Babel_Triumphant]

I feel like your list has a real weakness against hordes. Dreadknights, paladins, and your HQs are great at blowing up marines, termies, and vehicles. Sisters bring a pretty strong game vs hordes. I'd recommend giving those seraphim hand flamers instead of inferno pistols. With their act of faith you get 4 templates that reroll to wound all for the low price of 120 points. This would really help you clear up orks and other numerous, lightly armored foes. Otherwise, though, the list is solid.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sisters of what now?

 

I *might* have considered the nunz with gunz to support my GK.

 

But sadly I was only able to pick up one of the two required WD (and that's now gone missing, go figure).

 

So no SoB for me.

 

If I really wanted Fast Moving Melta (which seems to be all the SoB bring, really), I'd probably look at MM attacks bikes and Speeders.

 

Sisters, not so much.

[Sons_of_Medax]

I'm not going to lie.. This list seems pretty Damn terrible.

 

While you have pallies and Driago.. any sort of army that could put mass firepower onto you will cause you to cry. IG, Tau, Dark Eldar...

In fact I play Dark Eldar and I recently played a 750pt game against a dual Dreadknight list.. It did not enforced well for my opponent. At all.

 

Even a general without one of those armies that is worth his salt will do all he can to take out your Troops choices and then at best yout have three others.. if you get a good roll.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Josh Dearth (the guy who won Imperial Vox-Caster) is a really skilled player. He won with Tyranids at Duelcon, so I think its not so much the army as the player being excellent.

 

Still, what the fudge...

 

HQ: Celestine

Troop: 10 Sisters, 2 Meltas, Repressor

Troop: 10 Sisters, 2 Meltas, Repressor

Fast: 5 Dominions, 2 Meltas, Immolator

Fast: 5 Dominions, 2 Meltas, Immolator

Fast: 5 Seraphim, 2 Hand Flamers

Heavy: 8 Retributors

Heavy: Exorcist

Ally HQ: Coteaz

Ally Troop: 4 Death Cults, 4 Crusaders

Ally Troop: 3 Servitors with Multi Meltas, 3 Acolytes with Plasmaguns, 2 Jokeros

Ally Fast: Stormraven with Multi Melta, Plasma cannon, Hurricane Bolters

Bastion

 

I don't know how he won objective missions. He has effectively three Troops choices (the melee warband is an offensive unit likely to die), and they're all T3. The melta-spam is interesting. Retributors, Exorcist, Celestine and Coteaz are all strong of course, but yeah...

 

Suffice to say, don't try it at home kids. Sisters need their own codex, the current mini-version is a travesty. Even vanilla Marines make better Allies for Knights (not to mention Henchmen, our own 'in house' Ally).

[Babel_Triumphant]

I don't think you're giving sisters enough credit. They're pretty tough to kill, for a price much cheaper than marines. Celestine is an incredible value. Seraphim are solid, as are exorcists. I'm not suggesting they're a top army, but they have some great choices.

[L30n1d4s]

@Sons_of_Maddax - I see your point, however, DKs are more difficult to kill than you might realize.

 

-Against B3 lasguns, it takes (1/2)(1/6)(1/6)=72 shots on average to cause a single unsaved wound (DKs have four wounds)

 

-Against regular BS4 bolter fire, it takes (2/3)(1/6)(1/6)= 54 shots on average to cause a single unsaved wound

 

-Against BS3 Pulse Rifles, it takes (1/2)(1/3)(1/6)=36 shots to cause a single unsaved wounds

 

-Against DE with poisened weapons, it takes (2/3)(1/2)(1/6)= 18 shots to cause an unsaved wound... while that is a lot better than bolters/pulse rifles, it still requires 72 shots, on average, to kill a DK... and this list has (3) of them!!

 

Talking about lower AP weapons:

 

-BS4 Dark Lances, it takes (2/3)(5/6)(2/3)=about 3 DL shots to cause a single wound, on average (so 12 to kill one)

 

-TLed, BS3 Railguns, it talks (3/4)(5/6)(2/3)= about 2 shots to cause a single wound... so, (3) squads of (3) Broadsides all shooting at a DK will just kill it, but that is a TON of firepower in a turn just to bring a single, 155 point model

 

-TLed (i.e. "Bring it Down" order) BS3 autocannons, it takes about (3/4)(2/3)(1/6)=12 shots on average to cause a single wounds... thats an entire 50 man blob squad with 5 ACs shooting with "Bring it Down" in one turn and still only one wound caused

 

 

My point is not the DKs are invincible or that shooty armies (DE, IG, Tau, etc.) can't threaten them a lot, just that perhaps you are over-estimating how vulnerable Dreadknights (and the list I proposed as a whole) is to the shooting you described.

[Sons_of_Medax]

I don't think it's a case of me over estimating threats. When my 750pt Dark Eldar list dispatches of 2 Dreadknights within 2 turns (without even having everything fire at it), I am just pointing out that there are going to be lists that can counter yours very easily. Poison in the hands of a half component opponent will just ruin your day.

 

Sure, there will be lists that you come up against that you rolfstmp. Any of the older codexes, or perhaps some poor lists with newer dexes. But to win tournaments, you generally can't constantly rely on luck of match ups to ensure you don't come against lists that can counter yours. And there will be lists that provide you with an uphill battle.

 

Your Dreadknights aren't even fast. If you give your DK's scouting from Driago that means you're foregoing the ability to make the scoring. So you have to make that choice. And I look at your Troop choices for example - you don't have an apothecary on your Paladins. So you only have 16 troops at base, even if some of them are Paladins. The volume of S8 shots out there these days is growing rapidly, so there is some chance you could lose guys to be doubled out.

 

I'm not saying the list is the worst I've ever seen, and I'm not trying to destroy your buzz, I am just saying the list has shortcomings. For me if I were to look at bringing SOB allies into my lists.. I'd want numbers. Lots of numbers. The same kind of thing that IG can add. Ever tried a Blob Squad ally unit? Cheap and AWESOME objective holder.

 

Also, with your solodin reference.. the only thing scoring there is him. You can't hold objectives from within transports in 6th ed. So unless that's poorly worded you may need to reconsider that.

[Gentlemanloser]

You're not using Darklight to kill NDKs?

 

Not scared of anything else, who cares about poison when you've still got a 2+ Save.

 

Sadly, if you're not massing Darklight weapons, there's nothing else in the Deldar army that even gives me pause.

 

(This isn't to say I think the list in question is any good though!)

[Sons_of_Medax]

Oh no... I use Dark Lances as well. At 750pts I have three Ravagers and 3 Venoms with dual Splinter cannons, with warriors in the venoms. It's a ridiculous amount of poison wounds and coupled with the Dark Lances, I don't care if you have a 2/5+ when you have to take so many saves.

 

Seriously.. take 20 saves and 5 DL saves. Mathhammer gives you an idea.. but it's not until you start to actually roll that you realise how rough it is. And it's worse at 1850.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's cool.

 

You shoot everything you have, and (potentially) take down a single NDK. (Those 20 poisioned shots cause on average 3.33 wounds through TDA. Not enough to kill an NDK on thier own)

 

Still not fussed.

 

Now if you mass Blasters and full Darklight. Well, then I'm struggling to find enough cover to keep my Knights alive.

[Sons_of_Medax]

You guys are all missing the points I am making here. But before I summarise my entire thought process, I'd just like to point something out.

 

Gentlemanloser, you state that you are fine for me to pour all of my firepower into a DK. And I'm not even suggesting I am going to shoot everything I have at it, but let's say I do. In an army that is relying on a couple of elite (and by that I mean specialist slot, not the Elite Slots solely) losing those units in quick succession puts you on the back foot for the rest of the game. Taking care of those threats early leaves me to be able to pick apart the rest of your army without having to worry too much about immediate threats. As someone who has played Tau competitively for five years or so, concerntrated firepower still, in my books is the best way to eliminate threats when you are facing High LD armies.

 

Now, we could all go on with 'yeah well myAB unit deals with your XY unit because of this etc etc' all day. At the end of the day, that doesn't prove anything. All I am saying is that in an elite army, there are some match ups that will leave you pushing it uphill. I've also played a Dantewing BA army at tournaments and it's an immensely fun lists, but comes across those armies that you just have no answer to, and I think this list is similar in that manner. If you really want to take allies, I think it's fine, but you should be maximising the benefits of that ally to counter the weaknesses of your army. I just want to state that regardless of my following points.

 

So, in summary, here are the issues I have with the list, and points for consideration for the OP. It's up to him if he chooses to accept them or not - but if you ask for thoughts and feedback, don't just sit there and reject people's opinions all day, or else you're better off not even asking in the first place. I am not out to prove people wrong, I am just trying to present constructive feedback to allow you to give you the best chance at winning.

 

1) I have a massive problem with some of the suggested tactics in the OP. Using Driago to man an Aeigs Quadgun. Sorry, what?? Spending that many points to man a defense line is possibly the silliest thing I've ever heard this month. Or perhaps even year.

 

2) A mass dreadknight threat is fine, but they lack the major element that I personally believe makes them a massive threat. Personal teleporters are immensely valuable. Sometimes it's not even for that first turn shunt. A 4th/5th turn shunt can massively throw your opponent off if you suddenly content his home objective/other objectives. It also takes the reliance off having to use the Scout ability from your GM if you don't want to and frees up the ability to make them scoring. I'd rather face the three DK's listed than two scoring shunting DK's any day of the week.

 

3) The Solodin.. as stated previously. It can't be scoring whilst in the Raven, as stated. And it's a fine tactic to throw it into a unit late game to contest. But it's only one T4, 2 wound model. Overwatch could still possibly ruin your day.

 

4) There is not nearly enough troops on the table in this list. And to that, I don't know if Driago is worth it if you're only going to take one unit of Paladins. Wouldn't you be better off going with a bare GM and making them scoring if you actually need it?

 

If you can consider a reshuffle of some of your points you could significantly improve the list without making too many changes to the style of play you're obviously keen on using. Just give it some thought.

[Gentlemanloser]

Again, I don't think the said list is good.

 

But really, you're using 750 points, and generating 20 poisoned *wounds* and 5 DL *wounds*, with Deldars stellar BS, and you're not shooting everything you have, to kill a single NDK?

 

It's not like the Deldar are durable, and can whether the return fire well, is it.

 

(And anyway, such low points values cannot be balanced, and aren't really an indication of anything)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Can we agree that BlasterBorn end DK's day pretty reliably, and Ravager dark lance spam does the same? The mass poison is mainly for forcing saves on our expensive infantry, 3+ saves break more easily than a 2+.

 

Regarding the original list, its terrible and will get tabled pretty easily by a competent player. Your don't even have teleporters on the DK's, which is basically consigning them to death by firing squad. Srsly, I run mine with teleporters and they barely make enemy lines on 2 wounds. You lack Troops, which is crucial to winning most games (and in the 'Purge' mission, you lack staying power to prevent wipeout).

 

We can't discuss our best Ally option here, so I'm simply going to suggest Orks as an alternative. They provide you with dirt-cheap horde scoring units that shoot surprisingly well (they all are armed with storm bolters essentially). Lootaz make a great counterpart to PsyDreads, and even stuff like the SAG is adding options to our list.

 

Wait for Sisters to get a proper codex. The mini-dex they have isn't even widely available (hurr durr White Dwarf), and it sucks.