VI Legion as Executioners.....again!

[Grimtooth]

So much was made about Abnet hinting about the VI Legion being executioners both in the pre-release to Prospero Burns and later by the book itself.

 

Now those against this idea have put forward the following;

 

1. It was just a SW trying to impress a human.

2. It was just an old SW trying to impress a human.

3. It was just Leman Russ trying to impress a human.

 

However with the release of Fear To Tread, once again this title for the VI Legion has come up again. This time there is no human around to impress, but a Wolves jarl reinforcing mission objectives (from the Sigilite no less) that include, if necessary, trying to kill a primarch.

 

Now, this isn't just the Wolves being tasked with what would have been basically an impossible mission, but once again their role is mentioned as being the, "the executioner's sons" in reference to Russ, along with all the other stuff we have heard before about the VI always getting the dirtiest and most dangerous missions.

 

So, is it accepted that the Wolves may be set as the Emperor's executioner's or is there a new round of excuses or misdirects?

 

Edit: was thinking ADB when I meant to write Abnet.

[Arkangilos]

So much was made about ADB hinting about the VI Legion being executioners both in the pre-release to Prospero Burns and later by the book itself.

 

Now those against this idea have put forward the following;

 

1. It was just a SW trying to impress a human.

2. It was just an old SW trying to impress a human.

3. It was just Leman Russ trying to impress a human.

 

However with the release of Fear To Tread, once again this title for the VI Legion has come up again. This time there is no human around to impress, but a Wolves jarl reinforcing mission objectives (from the Sigilite no less) that include, if necessary, trying to kill a primarch.

 

Now, this isn't just the Wolves being tasked with what would have been basically an impossible mission, but once again their role is mentioned as being the, "the executioner's sons" in reference to Russ, along with all the other stuff we have heard before about the VI always getting the dirtiest and most dangerous missions.

 

So, is it accepted that the Wolves may be set as the Emperor's executioner's or is there a new round of excuses or misdirects?

 

They were on hand. Remember, they went to the other legions while the rest of the Space Wolves went to Prospero, so they were just the ones in the right time at the right place.

[MadDoc]

However with the release of Fear To Tread, once again this title for the VI Legion has come up again. This time there is no human around to impress, but a Wolves jarl reinforcing mission objectives (from the Sigilite no less) that include, if necessary, trying to kill a primarch.

 

Now, this isn't just the Wolves being tasked with what would have been basically an impossible mission, but once again their role is mentioned as being the, "the executioner's sons" in reference to Russ, along with all the other stuff we have heard before about the VI always getting the dirtiest and most dangerous missions.

The only place where Russ is referred to as the executioner in Fear to Tread is a single speech by a single character - Redknife (a Space Wolf).

 

God but you like reaching... :blush:

[Kol Saresk]

Wait, when did ADB write Prospero Burns? I thought that was Dan Abnett? Maybe I bought a bad copy.......

[Grimtooth]

However with the release of Fear To Tread, once again this title for the VI Legion has come up again. This time there is no human around to impress, but a Wolves jarl reinforcing mission objectives (from the Sigilite no less) that include, if necessary, trying to kill a primarch.

 

Now, this isn't just the Wolves being tasked with what would have been basically an impossible mission, but once again their role is mentioned as being the, "the executioner's sons" in reference to Russ, along with all the other stuff we have heard before about the VI always getting the dirtiest and most dangerous missions.

The only place where Russ is referred to as the executioner in Fear to Tread is a single speech by a single character - Redknife (a Space Wolf).

 

God but you like reaching... B)

 

Cheebus *edit* Bikes Maddoc!

 

Read the damn passage! Who is Redknife trying to impress? Where is Hawser to try to scare? Obviously you were one of the people that said that it was just a SW/old rune priest/Leman Russ trying to impress a skajld. Yet here the conversation is Redknife reiterating the mission set before them and telling his Wolves detachment WHY they are tasked with said mission, which is basically observe Sanguinous and if he turns to Horus, attempt to kill him. Redknife basically says they have this mission because it was what they were made for, that they are the "executioner's sons" and that is why despite it basically being a suicide mission, they have to do it.

 

Look dude, you hate the direction the Wolves are being taken. We get that! But if you use one excuse to handle the whole exectioner's bit three other times (impressing Hawser) and then said excuse is not present when it is brought up again, what is the reason it was brought up again? Stop crying about it just once and actually come up with something to discuss instead of just waving it off.

 

Edit by Insane Psychopath - watch the launge

[DarthMarko]

However with the release of Fear To Tread, once again this title for the VI Legion has come up again. This time there is no human around to impress, but a Wolves jarl reinforcing mission objectives (from the Sigilite no less) that include, if necessary, trying to kill a primarch.

 

Now, this isn't just the Wolves being tasked with what would have been basically an impossible mission, but once again their role is mentioned as being the, "the executioner's sons" in reference to Russ, along with all the other stuff we have heard before about the VI always getting the dirtiest and most dangerous missions.

The only place where Russ is referred to as the executioner in Fear to Tread is a single speech by a single character - Redknife (a Space Wolf).

 

God but you like reaching... B)

 

Cheebus F'ing Bikes Maddoc!

 

Read the damn passage! Who is Redknife trying to impress? Where is Hawser to try to scare? Obviously you were one of the people that said that it was just a SW/old rune priest/Leman Russ trying to impress a skajld. Yet here the conversation is Redknife reiterating the mission set before them and telling his Wolves detachment WHY they are tasked with said mission, which is basically observe Sanguinous and if he turns to Horus, attempt to kill him. Redknife basically says they have this mission because it was what they were made for, that they are the "executioner's sons" and that is why despite it basically being a suicide mission, they have to do it.

 

Look dude, you hate the direction the Wolves are being taken. We get that! But if you use one excuse to handle the whole exectioner's bit three other times (impressing Hawser) and then said excuse is not present when it is brought up again, what is the reason it was brought up again? Stop crying about it just once and actually come up with something to discuss instead of just waving it off.

Don't get upset; most of these comments are coming from jealousy (I've learned the hard way) and no matter what they say, you will always have Abnett to back you up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFLhyJXqNQ...1784AC3555D5997

[KarkassBC]

Don't get upset; most of these comments are coming from jealousy (I've learned the hard way) and no matter what they say, you will always have Abnett to back you up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viFLhyJXqNQ...1784AC3555D5997

 

I tried to listen to the videos but I probably missesd the point. Could you write the time and the right video (there are more than one).

 

The role as "executioners" in Fear to Tread it's a bit difficult to accept. Even the same Space Wolves with Redknife thought the task to kill a Primarch was over their possibility. Also, amongst the astartes, there was the idea that Sanguinius was the most powerful of the Primarchs, the best warrior.

But they received the idea "you are the best executioners" and didn't objected. But I think it was only a "motivational" speech.

 

I think their real role was only to watch the Blood Angels because their Primarch founded the Librarium projects with Magnus and Jaghatay Khan.

So if the Thousand Sons were attacked for breaking the Nikaea Decree, maybe the other two primary founders had done similar steps.

 

BTW we don't have a similar group with the White Scars because in many places it's said that even the Admistratum and the Mechanicum didn't know the exact position of the WS battlefleet.

[Billuriye]

I've never understood what makes SW Executioners. Sure they won't flinch from killing anybody but that's hardly enough. They need to have an edge against all other legions to be executioners. But they don't have the numbers either. So it boils down to an individual Space Wolf is better than any other legion's Astartes.

[KarkassBC]

I've never understood what makes SW Executioners. Sure they won't flinch from killing anybody but that's hardly enough. They need to have an edge against all other legions to be executioners. But they don't have the numbers either. So it boils down to an individual Space Wolf is better than any other legion's Astartes.

 

Time ago I proposed a different meaning for the word.

 

Executor stand for someone who execute. But the original meaning from the latin word "executor" was not only related to legally kill a criminal but in a wider meaning "to do what it's been requested".

 

So the Wolves could be "executioners" in the meaning they would accept and follow every order they received without question.

 

The "killing order" was only one of them but the most remarkable of course.

 

In Deliverance Lost there is a description of a "retirement resort" for all the twenty primarchs. So the Emperor had in his idea the goal to keep all of them. Thinking to create one with the task to kill the other doesn't match with this scenario.

[Billuriye]

In Deliverance Lost there is a description of a "retirement resort" for all the twenty primarchs. So the Emperor had in his idea the goal to keep all of them. Thinking to create one with the task to kill the other doesn't match with this scenario.

 

But that's an optimal scenario which didn't happen. Creating one to kill others is more of a failsafe incase of something goes awry.

[Emperor's Furor]

I believe ADB kind of stated you should take these things with a pinch of salt, just because they say or are seen as the executioners, doesn't mean they are.

[Legatus]

However with the release of Fear To Tread, once again this title for the VI Legion has come up again. This time there is no human around to impress, but a Wolves jarl reinforcing mission objectives (from the Sigilite no less) that include, if necessary, trying to kill a primarch.

Didn't the author of Fear to Tread come out and flat out admitted that the Space Wolves had simply been the ones around and available at the time Malcador needed someone to oversee the others, and that the Space Wolves weren't chosen because they were the "go to guys" for such matters?

[ZAChos]

I've never understood what makes SW Executioners. Sure they won't flinch from killing anybody but that's hardly enough. They need to have an edge against all other legions to be executioners. But they don't have the numbers either. So it boils down to an individual Space Wolf is better than any other legion's Astartes.

 

Maybe the edge is that they don't care who they're hitting as long as they're following orders. In A Thousand Sons, the Wolves have been given the order to destroy anything that gets in their way. When Ahriman arrives at the library some of the TS already have chainsword damage on their armour, suggesting the wolves have already attacked. In their second push, it is the TS that show restraint in not killing anyone. The wolves are ready to fight long before Russ arrives.

 

Put this into perspective, the Ultramarines in KNF refuse to return fire on the Word bearers until they are given a specific order from the primarch. One of them is under sensure for even considering how to fight other marines.

[Leonaides]

And if the one you created to kill the others turns out to be the one who goes renegade and needs killing?

[Billuriye]

Maybe the edge is that they don't care who they're hitting as long as they're following orders. In A Thousand Sons, the Wolves have been given the order to destroy anything that gets in their way. When Ahriman arrives at the library some of the TS already have chainsword damage on their armour, suggesting the wolves have already attacked. In their second push, it is the TS that show restraint in not killing anyone. The wolves are ready to fight long before Russ arrives.

 

Put this into perspective, the Ultramarines in KNF refuse to return fire on the Word bearers until they are given a specific order from the primarch. One of them is under sensure for even considering how to fight other marines.

 

I get that, target doesn't matter to SW as long as Allfather commands it but that alone doesn't cut it. SW gotta have an edge to be a failsafe against potential renegade legions. Say Russ was ordered to attack on Night Lords. I doubt NL would botch themselves like Magnus did to his own legion. Unless SW are superior to NL in crucial aspects, the execution is a pipe dream.

 

And if the one you created to kill the others turns out to be the one who goes renegade and needs killing?

 

Well then you're fugged.

[Stormbrow II]

I wonder how long it will be before ADB arrives to tell you how wrong you are and how all SW Fanboys are the worst of the lot when it comes to Legion fanboyism? Or something to that general effect.

 

I like to think that Russ was the one that dealt the deathblow to one of the errant Primarchs (2 and 11) when they were all called upon to do so: while most of them stopped to think about what they were doing, Russ wandered up and took a brother's head without a second thought, and walked off, leaving the others aghast. Maybe his Legion being demolished in the fighting beforehand might be a contributing factor to his decision, with following orders being his validation? Maybe that might be used as a justification for the executioner tag among the other Legions?

 

It can even be used as a plot twist later in the Heresy as some of the Primarchs left in the dark about it until it is revealed

e.g. when the DA & Wolves fight the Sorcerer with the crystal ball-thing that never lies before they head toward Earth, it would be cool if a reference was made to it that causes more tension between Russ & Johnson for example. I can't wait to see how it will be retconned though.

 

 

But seeing as Malcador is out sometime next year, we can assume that might shine *some* light on the matter and there'll be nothing that gives too much away as the 2nd and 11th are always going to be kept a secret, because if it was revealed, there'd be too many people disappointed with it. That air of mystery lets people come up with their own conclusion.

 

As for the Executioner angle, that was only added to the Wolves background when Abnett wrote Prospero Burns (I'm not the greatest fan of Abnett's work as he has a tendency to poop all over existing lore) but we might appreciate it more in later works if, as ADB has suggested with some of his characters, the backstory might be filled in more as the story arcs progress and the characters further developed.

[eyeslikethunder]

I've never understood what makes SW Executioners. Sure they won't flinch from killing anybody but that's hardly enough. They need to have an edge against all other legions to be executioners. But they don't have the numbers either. So it boils down to an individual Space Wolf is better than any other legion's Astartes.

 

The Space wolves do seem to see themselves that way and spy and investigate on the legions for weakenesses they can use to destroy them. They also hint they were involved in the other missing legions disappearance.

 

Also the we have seen a high official on earth assuming they will be used this way

 

 

Does this make them the Emperors Excecutioners we dont know we have not heard from the sigilite or emperor so who knows what they think.

 

As ADB said it could be assumption on the wolves part after being used this way in the past or that rather than being built by the emperor for this purpose they have just shown as ability to achieve it and so are repeatedly used that way

 

 

 

TBC

[The Colossus]

I wonder how long it will be before ADB arrives to tell you how wrong you are and how all SW Fanboys are the worst of the lot when it comes to Legion fanboyism? Or something to that general effect.

 

Could be waiting a while. He's sworn off forums, as he was treading to close to revealing things he shouldn't. Or so he said on Facebook.

[Baluc]

I've never understood what makes SW Executioners. Sure they won't flinch from killing anybody but that's hardly enough. They need to have an edge against all other legions to be executioners. But they don't have the numbers either. So it boils down to an individual Space Wolf is better than any other legion's Astartes.

 

Time ago I proposed a different meaning for the word.

 

Executor stand for someone who execute. But the original meaning from the latin word "executor" was not only related to legally kill a criminal but in a wider meaning "to do what it's been requested".

 

So the Wolves could be "executioners" in the meaning they would accept and follow every order they received without question.

 

The "killing order" was only one of them but the most remarkable of course.

 

In Deliverance Lost there is a description of a "retirement resort" for all the twenty primarchs. So the Emperor had in his idea the goal to keep all of them. Thinking to create one with the task to kill the other doesn't match with this scenario.

 

This is likely closer to any truth than anything else. Its also described in the Wolves explanation of their nature to Hawser.

 

"You still don't understand, skjald. I'm talking about degrees. There are lines that other legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It's what we're bred for. It's the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather's behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause."

 

People jump to this conclusion that the space wolves have to superior to effectively fight other Legions. This just isn't true. We've seen that even contemplating fighting a legion is a huge step for a lot of Astartes, even ones that ended up being traitors. And we've also seen what happened to the World Eaters as they become more and more savage with the psycho-surgery without typical Astartes restraint and how they ended up. The fact that the Vlka Fenryka were able to walk such a fine edge for so long during the crusade is a testament to them.

 

To wrap this up executer/executor is more closely a description of the Space Wolves. An executor, in the broadest sense, is one who carries something out (in other words, one who is responsible for executing a task) The fact that Space Wolves have shown they will do anything, more than anything lets them claim that title.

[Legatus]

There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It's what we're bred for.

And that is why two different Legions were chastised for their excessive use of terror and violence.

[Sgt.Sangha]

I guess what hes saying is ruthless tasks that the Emperor orders, those two different legions that were so ruthless were not ordered to be that way, although the nightlords do claim that they were allowed to as long as it served the Emperors cause

[Kol Saresk]

And if we go with KarakssBC's showing of an older definition for the word, it's not that the Wolves are "badasses" but more like they are so obedient to the Emperor that they would do anything he says. I remember A-D-B put something up about the Wolves, Night Lords and World Eaters forever and a half ago. What it basically said was that the Wolves are, while savage, are so much cleaner than the two other Legions, not the Wolves possessing some unique will to kill their fellow Astartes. After all, the Night Lords had their murder-duels and the World Eaters had their pitfights with live weapons, that I'msure have claimed more than a few lives. So in the end, what would end making the Wolves "special" is that they are, how does Khârn's quote for Betrayer put it, loyal dogs. I think Ican live with Wolves being downgraded to dogs.

[Grimtooth]

I've never understood what makes SW Executioners. Sure they won't flinch from killing anybody but that's hardly enough. They need to have an edge against all other legions to be executioners. But they don't have the numbers either. So it boils down to an individual Space Wolf is better than any other legion's Astartes.

 

Time ago I proposed a different meaning for the word.

 

Executor stand for someone who execute. But the original meaning from the latin word "executor" was not only related to legally kill a criminal but in a wider meaning "to do what it's been requested".

 

So the Wolves could be "executioners" in the meaning they would accept and follow every order they received without question.

 

The "killing order" was only one of them but the most remarkable of course.

 

In Deliverance Lost there is a description of a "retirement resort" for all the twenty primarchs. So the Emperor had in his idea the goal to keep all of them. Thinking to create one with the task to kill the other doesn't match with this scenario.

 

This is likely closer to any truth than anything else. Its also described in the Wolves explanation of their nature to Hawser.

 

"You still don't understand, skjald. I'm talking about degrees. There are lines that other legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It's what we're bred for. It's the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather's behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause."

 

People jump to this conclusion that the space wolves have to superior to effectively fight other Legions. This just isn't true. We've seen that even contemplating fighting a legion is a huge step for a lot of Astartes, even ones that ended up being traitors. And we've also seen what happened to the World Eaters as they become more and more savage with the psycho-surgery without typical Astartes restraint and how they ended up. The fact that the Vlka Fenryka were able to walk such a fine edge for so long during the crusade is a testament to them.

 

To wrap this up executer/executor is more closely a description of the Space Wolves. An executor, in the broadest sense, is one who carries something out (in other words, one who is responsible for executing a task) The fact that Space Wolves have shown they will do anything, more than anything lets them claim that title.

 

There is some great insight here as well as the previous post regarding incorporating the older definition.

 

We see that Horus used Istcaan III as a chance to "bloody" the traitor Legions so as they would be ready to strike down the Loyalists without pause on Istvaan V. And from the description of the dropsite massacre, it appears that some pause was given by the Loyalists. So unquestionable obedience to an order in those cases would be beneficial.

 

As to the attack dogs comment, it isn't the first time that has come up. I think one of the more supportive uses versus it being used as an insult comes up in Battle of the Fang when Magnus is talking to the statue of Russ and among the things he says he mentions how the Wolves were exactly what the Emperor wanted in obedience and loyalty. However, we do see that while Russ would cross the line that no other would, he was not always done with relish as relayed by Magnus revealing that Russ had begged him to surrender while fighting him.

 

As for the comments regarding Abnet and Swallow, if they didn't want it discussed or explored, they probably should not have written or talked about it. As for ADB, his prescence is always welcome, but he drew his own line in his signature about the content of his posts. He could come in and tell anyone how wrong they are and it can easily be dismissed according to his own signature.

[The Colossus]

As for the comments regarding Abnet and Swallow, if they didn't want it discussed or explored, they probably should not have written or talked about it. As for ADB, his prescence is always welcome, but he drew his own line in his signature about the content of his posts. He could come in and tell anyone how wrong they are and it can easily be dismissed according to his own signature.

 

He also spent too much time posting and not enough writing. He did say he misses the B'n'C the most though.

[DarthMarko]

I wonder how long it will be before ADB arrives to tell you how wrong you are and how all SW Fanboys are the worst of the lot when it comes to Legion fanboyism? Or something to that general effect.

Please explain why do you insult something (and someone) and have a SW avatar on your profile ??? And ADB showed in EG how badass are they, so why do you think he'll put them down?