Cover save for fortifications, and gun on top shooting down.

[Azatoth]

This came up recently in an Apocalypse game, but I guess it could also happen in normal 40k:

 

Can a fortification recive a cover save due to 25% coverage by an intervening model? In our case it was a bastion claiming a Warhound for cover.

 

How do you handle bastion top mounted guns that try to shoot down. Basically some guns are unable to lower their barrel far enough to shoot at close targets. But I have seen users claim LOS from the "tip of the barrel" so to speek.

[Cypher 102]

On page 93 of the main rulebook it says that "units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle." Vehicles can get cover saves so I don't see why buildings wouldn't as well.

 

As for the weapons mounted on top of the building. Look at the pictures for vehicle line of sight on page 72 for a precedent. The weapon has to draw line of sight along the barrel not bend a round out of the end.

[puffin]

As for the weapons mounted on top of the building. Look at the pictures for vehicle line of sight on page 72 for a precedent. The weapon has to draw line of sight along the barrel not bend a round out of the end.

 

While I agree that this is definitely the RAW, I think some allowance needs to be made for the stupidity of the bastion weapon mount. A rough test with a tape measure shows a dead zone of 16" if you shoot over the lowest part of the battlement, or 28" if you shoot over the highest part! Speaking of fortifications, does anyone actually apply true LoS to, say, guard hiding behind an aegis line where 90% of the unit won't be able to see through their barricade?

[Seahawk]

TLoS is TLoS. You can't just apply it to some parts and not to others when it doesn't say to.

 

So, yes, if you can't see through the barricade, you can't shoot/hit. The mounting of the lascannon on top of the bastion does also produce a condition called defilade, where you can't shoot within 16". That's just how the game and physics work.

[Shaggy12009]

The trouble comes in when you try to fire over the middle of the sides. The high point of the wall makes it impossible to shoot straight out let alone down. My game group made a house rule where the wall doesn't count for this reason.

[tvih]

I've been indeed wondering about it when looking at the Bastion model. It really seems like a difficult model to use TLOS for the top gun. The wall blocks the gun so efficiently.

 

But then Aegis is turning out to be a bit of a problem as well. Unless I'm basically in base contact with the defense line, the enemy gets just as much cover from it as I do, which kinda sucks :) And vehicles need to be like that too, otherwise it's hard to get 25% of them covered. Same thing for the Quad Gun.

[Seahawk]

Whoa, realism?? The thing people argue for all the time with these rules, but once it starts to screw them they toss it out in favor of "but I want it this way!"?

 

:)

[Ming]

In the BRB it says mounted weapons (unless the mounting provides other) can pivot +/- 45 degrees vertically. So yes, at some point he cannot shoot you as the mount cannot be lowered beyond that. This can be modified further by the bastion battlements, creating a further shadow zone. Not that infantry themselves have no issue about shooting straight down (if they lean over the edge...) or shoot straight up (also covered in the BRB).

 

I've seen cases where this 45 degree rule had been applied also to flyers shooting at ground targets, thus the tactic of running/driving beneath them to get out of their fire arc.

 

The Quad Gun can essentially go vertical, I'd assume the Icarus Lascannon will also. The bigger issue is that from the top of a tower or bastion, you cannot depress the gun to shoot through the battlement or floor....

 

Too bad you cannot just have some barrels of boiling tar to pour off the edge when the enemy gets close....

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Speaking of fortifications, does anyone actually apply true LoS to, say, guard hiding behind an aegis line where 90% of the unit won't be able to see through their barricade?

Yes, you must apply this.

But then Aegis is turning out to be a bit of a problem as well. Unless I'm basically in base contact with the defense line, the enemy gets just as much cover from it as I do, which kinda sucks And vehicles need to be like that too, otherwise it's hard to get 25% of them covered. Same thing for the Quad Gun.

A common misconception involving Infantry firing past an Aegis Defense Line-- many people do not understand that you use the Models' eyes. What I mean to say, is that pretend you are that model.

• You have incredibly tiny eyes and also they are on your head (ie the tallest part of you).
  
• You can see over most of the Barrier quite easily, and the taller bits have an eye-slit modeled into them.
  
• The other models in your Unit will never block your Line of Sight either. So a squadmate flush against the wall 'using' the eye-slit himself does not block you from using the same eye-slit from 6" back.
  
• To shoot something all you have to see is a tiny sliver of any model in the target unit (within sportsmanship limitations).
  
• You may be short, but the vast majority of your targets will be tall enough to still see.
  

Now for the defense line applying cover saves to the opponent, remember that no matter what model is firing, the enemy determines their cover saves by-model and in a straight line only from your closest model.

Example: You have an IG squad of 10 men with Lascannon Team. Your closest IG model to the target has his face flush against the eye-slit. However, the Lascannon Team is strung 6" behind the Line and can only see a sliver of the Target.

In this case, the Target will receive No Cover Save against the Lascannon.

Players are assuming you determine cover from the shooting models to the hit models. Not true. You determine Cover from the closest model in the shooting Unit to the hit model (ie 'Bending Bullets' convention). It is weird, because essentially all shots are 'flowing' through your Point-man.

Example:

Now, a Bastion will still have Defilade. Because the Model shooting still needs to see a sliver of target. But if a sliver can be seen, that does not mean a Cover Save is necessarily involved.

[stephane4985]

Now for the defense line applying cover saves to the opponent, remember that no matter what model is firing, the enemy determines their cover saves by-model and in a straight line only from your closest model.

 

Example: You have an IG squad of 10 men with Lascannon Team. Your closest IG model to the target has his face flush against the eye-slit. However, the Lascannon Team is strung 6" behind the Line and can only see a sliver of the Target.

 

In this case, the Target will receive No Cover Save against the Lascannon.

 

Players are assuming you determine cover from the shooting models to the hit models. Not true. You determine Cover from the closest model in the shooting Unit to the hit model (ie 'Bending Bullets' convention). It is weird, because essentially all shots are 'flowing' through your Point-man.

 

 

I maybe wrong but this doesn't feel right. pg 18 second paragraph explains how to determine cover. There no way that you don't get cover save from the guys 6 inch behind the line with the lascannon because the first guy of the squad is in the open...... That would be the contrary. The guy in the open will give cover save because of the lascannon guys behind.

[ShinyRhino]

Now for the defense line applying cover saves to the opponent, remember that no matter what model is firing, the enemy determines their cover saves by-model and in a straight line only from your closest model.

 

Example: You have an IG squad of 10 men with Lascannon Team. Your closest IG model to the target has his face flush against the eye-slit. However, the Lascannon Team is strung 6" behind the Line and can only see a sliver of the Target.

 

In this case, the Target will receive No Cover Save against the Lascannon.

 

Players are assuming you determine cover from the shooting models to the hit models. Not true. You determine Cover from the closest model in the shooting Unit to the hit model (ie 'Bending Bullets' convention). It is weird, because essentially all shots are 'flowing' through your Point-man.

 

 

I maybe wrong but this doesn't feel right. pg 18 second paragraph explains how to determine cover. There no way that you don't get cover save from the guys 6 inch behind the line with the lascannon because the first guy of the squad is in the open...... That would be the contrary. The guy in the open will give cover save because of the lascannon guys behind.

 

Same. I can't remember a rules quote that tells you to determine cover based on the closest model in your unit.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Same. I can't remember a rules quote that tells you to determine cover based on the closest model in your unit.

Ah I see where my process took me.

 

Page 15: "...allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit."

 

However, I needed to continue reading on Page 18: "if target model is at least 25% obscured from at least one firer, wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save"

 

You see, I had that sentence logically inverted in my head. I mentally translated it as "target must be obscured from all firers" which is the exact opposite of what it does say. Well I'm glad I get on the OR forum all the time, it helps straighten me out on personal-fallacies like this. Fortunately this has never come up in my games yet.

 

I think the funny thing is this:

 

9 Men in the open, 1 Man behind Rhino (BLoS). All shots have no Cover Save.

9 Men in the open, 1 Man shooting through forest. All shots have Cover Save attached! why? LMAO

[stephane4985]

Thing is, it gives you more tactical choice. You can still choose to shot only with your guys that don't give cover.

 

So: fire with all your guns, gives cover save OR fire with less guns but don't gives cover save.

 

This means model placement if even more important. Do you put the heavy weapon in or out of cover?

[Ming]

Yeah, when it comes to the aegis and infantry, it gets a bit vague. Something else to bring up when it get deployed to make sure your opponent is on board. This is the same for walls/barricades. It boils down to -

 

1. If your shooting unit has models up against the Aegis, the aegis does not grant cover saves to your target on the other side.

2. If you are standing back (not based) behind the aegis, targets on the other side get cover.

3. For vehicles, it basically matters from the gun mount sight. If the target model/unit is not obscured, no cover from shooting over the wall.

 

It kind of points out that if you just place an aegis across the no-man-land in a long line, any infantry fire back or forth over it has cover saves...

 

Tactica hint - If you do this, take weapons that ignore cover....Your shooty opponent has to deal with your cover saves, while you just pop away. C:SM weapons that ignore cover include flamers, some whirlwind fire modes, and of course some sternguard ammo. There are also librarian and other unit buffs/blessings/etc. that can also grant you "ignore cover" to units.

 

Some day I'll read a battle report where the opponent baited his enemy to run up to a defense line (for the cover), just to be pasted by cover-ignoring firepower, and lose it all....

[tvih]

3. For vehicles, it basically matters from the gun mount sight.

Yes, and I found it makes it really tricky to use Predators. The Aegis so easily blocks the sponson weapons. Basically you have to park the middle hull against the taller part of the line, and try to place the sponson on the lower parts. But even that leaves you with a quite limited field of fire.