khurdur Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Well brethren , one my palying mates plays the following list, and it is a nightmare, one of the strongest lists int he area an a solid cheesefest. @1750 Platoon command squad w/ 3-4 flamers astropath officer of the fleet chimera- Elites Marbo- Troops 10 veterans-lascannon team, 3x plasma-chimera 10 veterans-lascannon team, 3x plasma 10 veterans-lascannon team, 3x melta 10 veterans-lascannon team, 3x plasma Fast Attack-3x vendettas Heavy Support 3x Leman Russ battle-tanks-lascannon on hull They are worse than a nightmare. They have 7 stationary lascannons to play with on turn 1, and from turn 2 onwards the trio of vendettas come and waste any vehicle you might have have. Any footsloggers get blown away by the battle cannons, while up close 9 plasma guns have things to say to our assault marines. Oh and marbo likes to nuke a squad for free in turn 2. And our reserve rule are screwed due to the -1, even with a re-roll for our jumpers. The 3 russes form up creating a gigantic land raider with 3 battle-cannons, and the chimeras cover their flanks. Short of 3x stormravens or a raider rush, any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Pods, lots of them. ;) Cut his line in two using the pods as LoS and movement blockers. Kill one part at the time. By the time his fliers arrive you will be stuck in anyway, plenty of things in there to multi assault and lock in CC. Don't worry too much about the initial casualties, guardsmen are made of soggy cardboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickrock Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 So, do you play out of Dayton Ohio? Because... I've seen that same list.... just at 2k points. I've only been able to beat it twice with my Blood Angels (3 times all together). The first way I beat this guy was by putting my Descent of Angels away and picking up 5 Razorbacks and 5 Predators. All TL Plas/Lass, 3 AC/HB Baals and 2 Auto/Lass Preds. 2 Preists, 2 Libs and a Storm Raven. This will be dependant on you getting first turn as his Lass Shooting may hurt your Lass Shooting. One of the few times with Fliers you'll want to do this. When I played him I put as much Fire onto the Russ' as I could. Things were a little Grim until my 3 Baals came in turn 3 and Outflanked. Game was over by that point. The second way I managed this was a Descent of Angel list. 4 Squads, Devistators in the back and a 4 Melta Gun Honor Guard. Devs popped Chimeras full of Vets. I dropped 2 ASM squads (4 Meltas) onto the Russ' with a Priest. The Honor Guard followed. Gave the Honor Guard Rerolls, with 8 Melta onto that squad they went down, actually, they went down with the Honor Guard alone. The other two squads moved on select targets while the Devs placed blasts on the vets who spilled out. Fortunatly I was able to make my cover saves on my Devs so the lass were not that scary early game. Now, I'm not sure what you're running but I assume it involves Jump Troops because you're talking about rerolls. The other tactic I would have tried given I didn't use the above would be similar to what my Chaos pulled off back in 5th. I would take 3 Drop Pods. Either x4 Melta Honor Guard or x5 Combi-Melta Sternguard. Or both. Remember, you want two units dropping on this Turn 1. You'll also want your devistators in the back field Missile Launchers prefered (for points). Maybe a Lass. This is your call. Give one unit of Devs a Drop Pod. DON'T PUT THEM IN IT!! From this point, use your Tactical or Assault Marines to move up the field. The Honor Guard and / or Sternguard have one mission. Drop onto the Russ' and pop them as fast as you can. That third Drop Pod is so that you can land both those units turn 1. Your Dev's job is to pop those transports. From that point it is pretty much ignore the fliers (x3 Lass may hurt, but is easily dealt with by abusing Cover and good positioning). This will get VERY costly, however it will be effective for what you want. The rest of the fight will be kiting around the vets and dropping ML Blasts on them. Allies are another option, taking a vet squad with x2 Vendettas and a Manticore. I really hope this works out for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Pods. Raiders. Ravens. A mix of 6 tactical and assault squads all podded. Maybe a sternguard for the seventh. You can deploy a pod against each of his squads and shred them with bolter and flamer fire. Wiping out all four of his infantry squads on T1 should be possible. Yeah, four tactical squads with 8 bolters, a flamer and a MM They will almost certainly wipe out a 10 man guard squad. Follow on with two assault squads and a sternguard squad set up for tank popping. By the time the vendettas arrive, that will be all he has, get in cover, go to ground and shoot back. Raiders. A minimal assault squad in raider can be had for 315 pts. Five and some upgrades. Lascannons are not that effective at popping raiders, neither are Battlecannons. They arent bad, but they arent great either. Ravens Three Ravens, mass infantry and priests, go to ground a lot and let your Ravens come on and win the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 drop pods are good, but he will have two plasma squads in chimeras I can't touch..and only half the pods can drop on turn 1, if I don't land close enough for flamers? 16 bolter shots will kill around 6 guardsmen, his 3 spec weapon gunners survive. And in his turn, each battlecannon shot will stand a good chance of wasting a sqaud each, drop pod or no. And then in turn 2 marbo will take out another squad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy12009 Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 drop pods are good, but he will have two plasma squads in chimeras I can't touch..and only half the pods can drop on turn 1, if I don't land close enough for flamers? 16 bolter shots will kill around 6 guardsmen, his 3 spec weapon gunners survive. And in his turn, each battlecannon shot will stand a good chance of wasting a sqaud each, drop pod or no. And then in turn 2 marbo will take out another squad... Drop pods will auto correct their landing. I place them 1"-2" away from the target unit. They either deviate left, right, or back. They can't deviate closer and get a mishap. From there, use your 6" disembarkation to move in the opposite direction of the deviation. Average roll is 7" so your squad will be exactly where you want them to be to flame away. Personally, I prefer to use assualt squads with meltas for the vehicles and take the squads in hand to hand. Guardsmen really suck at punching needing a 4 to hit, 5 to wound, and you get a 3+ save. If you're really sold on the flamers, pods will work. I'm just not convinced that's the answer for a tournament all comers style list. Either way, you can at least make him fight for his win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 Pods aren't so good for a take allcomers list as shaggy12009 said, assault armies will eat them for lunch. Also, he'll just deploy on the board edge so I have a chance to deepstrike right off the board, the inertial guidance system won't save us from that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Pods aren't so good for a take allcomers list as shaggy12009 said, assault armies will eat them for lunch. Also, he'll just deploy on the board edge so I have a chance to deepstrike right off the board, the inertial guidance system won't save us from that.... Who dares wins... And what assaulty armies are you thinking of that wouldn't have a problem with a nice alpha strike of pods? The point is cutting him off and limit the amount of firepower he can throw at you. Force him to either waste fire power to remove the pods or movement to get around them. I'd target the russes first as the battlecannons are more nasty than some lowly guardsmen with fancy guns. If you can't get to them make sure to deploy in a way that at least will limit their effectiveness. Shooting at marines isn't so great if you are properly spaced out and standing right next to his own units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 a nidzilla army with 2-3 trygons and 3 tervigons will just laugh, we'll just knock off a few odd wounds. Or a CSm army with 9 nurgle oblits and everything else in rhinos. The oblits will just laugh at the melta and bolter shots, and then proceed to shoot them down in droves.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 a nidzilla army with 2-3 trygons and 3 tervigons will just laugh, we'll just knock off a few odd wounds.Or a CSm army with 9 nurgle oblits and everything else in rhinos. The oblits will just laugh at the melta and bolter shots, and then proceed to shoot them down in droves.. Depends entirely on what's in the pods, what your supporting units are and how you deploy the pods. It's amazingly flexible. The only list that will really give a pod heavy list serious trouble is warp quake spam (but only if they get the first turn) or another pod list. Seem to me like you are looking for some kind of magic bullet combo that will win against anything, every time and preferably without any tactics or strategy. Guess what, there isn't one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 hahaha thats a good diagnosis :) ....what I want is a good army that has a fighting chance against everyone...this kind of guard army usually demands a very specialized list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 hahaha thats a good diagnosis :) ....what I want is a good army that has a fighting chance against everyone...this kind of guard army usually demands a very specialized list I think you are overestimating that list, it could be a lot worse. A lot of BA players on here seem to have problem with IG, I've found them to be one of the easier opponents once you've got them figured out. IG suck at anything but shooting, so what you have to do is limit the effectiveness of that shooting. With vehicles for instance just about everything dangerous to you are blasts or templates, go for pens instead of glances to shut him down. Don't bother shooting a russ hull with anything but melta, don't shoot AV12 with anything less than a lascannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaz Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You say drop pods are line of sight blockers, they have to deploy with their doors open dont they? I don't actually own any drop pods, but how much sight can these things really block? Or is it just a general 5+ cover they'll be giving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I also feel that list is being over-estimated. Turn 1 he deploys 5 units. The battle tanks and the chimeras. That's the weakness in the list. Get yourself a pod - maybe two, no need to go pod crazy. Also, attack bikes. At least one fill squad, but preferably 2. Most times a player like this will put the two vet squads in the birds. If he puts them on the ground, then even better for your bikers. I would consider mephiston for this, thought the AP2 makes it tricky. Overall, i think something like: A: Mephiston 10 ASM - 2MG, Fist, IPistol Pod 10 ASM - 2MG, Axe 5 ASM - MG Razor - TLLC 5 ASM - MG Razor - TLAC 3Attack Bikes- 2MM, 1HB 3Attack Bikes- 3MM Raven - TLLC Raven - TLLC or B: Libby - shield/fear, JP 10 ASM - 2MG, Fist Pod 10 ASM - 2MG, Fist 5 ASM - MG Razor - TLLC 5 ASM - MG Razor - TLAC 3Attack Bikes- 3MM 3Attack Bikes- 3MM Vindicator Raven - TLLC Raven - TLLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I'd advise strongly against upgraded razor backs. They will be blown to pieces. Partly why I said pods instead of razor rushing. Although..... 6 Bolterbacks with a 6 man dismount and a melta is 888pts Three Vindicators takes you up to 1323 Libby and an honour guard in seventh bolter back, spam plasma in them. If you get t1, turbo the razors, vindicate the lemans, slaughter ground forces and by the time the vendettas show up, its all over, doesnt matter if they blow up a few tanks, you hold all the objectives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khurdur Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 how about this-a a variant of my usual list-the SG w/ priest and one assault marine squad can DS in to go for the tanks. The vindies threaten him on T1 too..and the stormraven is a stormraven capt w/jp, power sword sang priest w/jp 5 sang guard w/ chapter banner, 2x inf pistols 10 assault marines 2x mg, meltabomb, power axe 10 assault marines 2x mg, meltabomb 3x attack bikes w/MM 1x Attack bike/MM Baal Predator w/assault cannon/HB stormraven Vindicator-145p Vindicator-145p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Change the Cap into a libby- no reason to have him. Baal is not bad, but not ideal. Rather get more bikers if you can. Dom, the theory behind the razors is that even though theyre weak vs the lascannons, it requires a squad to target it to do the damage. In addition, it puts high pressure on the opponent from the start. With his 5 vehicles on the board he has 5 firing options only - this means that somethin in your army will get through. Especially once you have the pod and mephy charging up. If he shoots at the razors, hes not shooting at mephy/bikes, if he shoots at the bikes, hes not shooting at the razors etc etc. This puts him in between a rock and a hard place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 "Target Saturation" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy12009 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Change the Cap into a libby- no reason to have him. Baal is not bad, but not ideal. Rather get more bikers if you can. Dom, the theory behind the razors is that even though theyre weak vs the lascannons, it requires a squad to target it to do the damage. In addition, it puts high pressure on the opponent from the start. With his 5 vehicles on the board he has 5 firing options only - this means that somethin in your army will get through. Especially once you have the pod and mephy charging up. If he shoots at the razors, hes not shooting at mephy/bikes, if he shoots at the bikes, hes not shooting at the razors etc etc. This puts him in between a rock and a hard place. This is called making your opponent make a tough decision and its how good players win with average armies. Not everything is going to be a silver bullet. Remember that each unit is a tool in your tool box. It's how you use those tools that makes the win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You say drop pods are line of sight blockers, they have to deploy with their doors open dont they? I don't actually own any drop pods, but how much sight can these things really block? Or is it just a general 5+ cover they'll be giving? I may be bringing up a severely touchy subject. Nothing says the doors on a Drop Pod must open when it lands. The fluff has many things to say on this topic. The Rules (RAW) say absolutely nothing at all either for or against. There was a giant thread back in March (therefore pre-6th Edition) that takes a good hashing through it all. Pretty much worth a look, then reach you own conclusions. Link here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...sembark%20hatch I was going to add my opinion here, but that is off topic so I will leave that alone. Feel free to bump that thread over in the Rules forum if you think something was missed that 6th Edition has changed. I didn't see anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaz Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I was going to add my opinion here, but that is off topic so I will leave that alone. Feel free to bump that thread over in the Rules forum if you think something was missed that 6th Edition has changed. I didn't see anything. Oh, opening up a can of worms was I? My bad haha. I was just curious in regards to the tactics being recommended here, but I'll read up and leave the subject be. Thanks for the link, I had no intention of derailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I was going to add my opinion here, but that is off topic so I will leave that alone. Feel free to bump that thread over in the Rules forum if you think something was missed that 6th Edition has changed. I didn't see anything. Oh, opening up a can of worms was I? My bad haha. I was just curious in regards to the tactics being recommended here, but I'll read up and leave the subject be. Thanks for the link, I had no intention of derailing. A fully modeled drop pod with interior will block los on the ground level for infantry sized targets. The fins however are quite large and combined with other terrain and units they tend to block LoS a lot when there are a number of them on the board. Keep in mind that they are units, not terrain, when it comes to working out cover saves and movement block. Some TOs might rule that all pods are considered closed for the sake of simplicity and consistency between pods carrying infantry, dreads or forgeworld pods who are a bit different. Arguing that your pods can flap its doors and block LoS is sketchy and IMHO a clear case of modelling for advantage. Specially since they are open topped. If the artwork and fluff wasn't enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 You'll never outshoot an IG list with BA, You beat IG by getting in amongst the vehicles. I probably wouldn't bother taking drop pods either, jump pack list is fine. Take lots of bodies to wither the casualties on the way in, deep strike a few Melta units to keep the Russes honest. Libby w/ JP 3x Priests w/ JP, Power Axe 6x 10 ASM w/ Meltagunsx2, Meltabombs is 1685pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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