Azoriel Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Hey! Wanted to discuss the merits of the new Forgeworld Rapier rules. I saw at least one locked thread on this topic, though I suspect that it will be okay as long as we discuss the Rapier in relation to DA armies and not other things. (If I am mistaken in this regard, please inform me and I will self-correct.) The current rules for the Rapier can be found here (a bit different from the test rules posted earlier): http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Prod...rine_Rapier.pdf The changes from the test rules are actually rather interesting; instead of having an AV, it's T7 W2. If I'm correct, this would mean you need at least two lascannon/krak missile/what-have-you shots to take one of these down. In turn, this would translate to having to get 6 successful hits to actually take a full squadron down. (Compare to, say, a lascannon pred, which can theoretically be taken down in one lucky melta shot, but is conversely impervious to small arms fire). There is also no longer any kind of caveat on the Rapier being "Ordinance 1" - this would imply that it now shoots in a large ordinance blast (not a bad deal for something that hits as hard as a lascannon). All in all, this seems to be a much better deal than a lascannon pred - other than the lack of range (and the fact that you can't shoot at flyers now), the Rapier seems to outclass the Pred in all respects. A trio of Rapiers costs only 180 points, compared to a lascannon pred's 165; unlike a lascannon pred, all of their shots are twin-linked (not counting the bolters of the excess crewmen), and they can move and fire all three of their main weapons at full BS. Am I missing something here? All this, for 15 points? (Who needs a librarian to twin-link their plasmacannon devastators when you can get even bigger templates that hit at S9 rather than 7?) This seems too good to be true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Templates? Just because it's ordnance doesn't mean it has blast templates. Forge World has been doing a lot of that lately. If it did, a librarian with prescience wouldn't work on it as prescience only works on to hit rolls. But yes looks like a good deal compared to a lascannon predator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 According to BGB page 51, a non vehicle model with an Ordinance weapon cannot fire it if he moved in that turn. Blast is a separate Special Rule and thus the Rapier doesn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 The changes from the test rules are actually rather interesting; instead of having an AV, it's T7 W2. If I'm correct, this would mean you need at least two lascannon/krak missile/what-have-you shots to take one of these down. In turn, this would translate to having to get 6 successful hits to actually take a full squadron down. (Compare to, say, a lascannon pred, which can theoretically be taken down in one lucky melta shot, but is conversely impervious to small arms fire). The Rapier is artillery and thats how artillery works in 6th, i.e. Toughness 7, Wounds 2, and Save 3+. There is also no longer any kind of caveat on the Rapier being "Ordinance 1" - this would imply that it now shoots in a large ordinance blast (not a bad deal for something that hits as hard as a lascannon). No. There is no Blast (Large or otherwise) listed under the Rapier's Type, as such it isn't a Blast weapon. Blast Ordnance Weapons - Battle cannon Type - Ordnance 1, Large Blast Colossus siege mortar Type - Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast Demolisher siege cannon Type - Ordnance 1, Large Blast Non-Blast Ordnance - Hellstrike missiles Type - Ordnance 1, One Use Only Laser destroyer array Type - Ordnance 1, Twin-linked You're making the mistake of assuming that Ordnance equals Blast, it does not. All in all, this seems to be a much better deal than a lascannon pred - other than the lack of range (and the fact that you can't shoot at flyers now), the Rapier seems to outclass the Pred in all respects. A trio of Rapiers costs only 180 points, compared to a lascannon pred's 165; unlike a lascannon pred, all of their shots are twin-linked (not counting the bolters of the excess crewmen), and they can move and fire all three of their main weapons at full BS. As Artillery Rapiers can't move and fire at all (not even snap shots). Where as a Predator can (sometimes) move and shoot (depending on how fast its moving). Am I missing something here? All this, for 15 points? (Who needs a libraian to twin-link their plasmacannon devastators when you can get even bigger templates that hit at S9 rather than 7?) This seems too good to be true... You're missing the fact that the Rapier isn't a blast weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 You're making the mistake of assuming that Ordnance equals Blast, it does not. Doh! As Artillery Rapiers can't move and fire at all (not even snap shots). Where as a Predator can (sometimes) move and shoot (depending on how fast its moving). Doh! Hm... Was going to say this makes the Rapier viable for anti-air now, but no snap fire means the Rapier can't do that either. Suddenly, the lessened durability of an annihilator or a lascannon mortis doesn't look that bad... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azatoth Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You're making the mistake of assuming that Ordnance equals Blast, it does not. Doh! As Artillery Rapiers can't move and fire at all (not even snap shots). Where as a Predator can (sometimes) move and shoot (depending on how fast its moving). Doh! Hm... Was going to say this makes the Rapier viable for anti-air now, but no snap fire means the Rapier can't do that either. Suddenly, the lessened durability of an annihilator or a lascannon mortis doesn't look that bad... :) Nobody said it can not snap fire, it was just stated that if can not move and fire (which in that case would be snapfire). On the other side side I think they missed to add Crew to the krak and frag grenades, I do not think the Rapier itself has those? :P Also a Parier has the advantage to be easier to gain cover saves then a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Basic artillery rules prohibit artillery from snap firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 But not Overwatch firing, which isn't prohibited. Of course Overwatch fire happens in the enemy's turn, so it not like the crew are moving the Rapier around at that time, and so can fire it at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 BGB P21 - weapons that cannot fire snapshots cannot fire overwatch. As ordnance weapons can't fire snapshots then the rapier can't fire overwatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 If it wasn't for the price tag in pounds, I be tempted to try an unit of two. 120 points for two very good AT Guns. The problem is they are useless against infantry. A Predator with AC/LC is still useful against heavy infantry; cast the default divination spell on it, its a decent AA gun to. Go for the HH predator AC/LC, and its actually good in the anti infantry and antitank role. 4 AC shots on the main gun for the win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 But, as ordnance, when shooting a vehicle, you roll 2 dice for armor pen and take the highest, so these are like great anti-tank guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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