If Malcador didn't sit on the Golden Throne

[Bjorn Firewalker]

What if, at the moment Horus dropped his flagship's shields, the Emperor chose not to take the bait, and remained on the Golden Throne so the Webway portal behind it would remain closed? He would remain bound there, but He would be conscious and lucid- at least until He finds an alternate means of keeping the portal closed, or until Horus kills Him and conquers Terra, whichever comes first.

 

Would Rogal Dorn be able to defeat Horus with little or no aid? Would Terra's defenses hold until Ultramarine reinforcements arrive? Would Horus be defeated, and if so, how would a conscious and lucid Emperor have guided the Imperium's growth?

[Arkangilos]

What if, at the moment Horus dropped his flagship's shields, the Emperor chose not to take the bait, and remained on the Golden Throne so the Webway portal behind it would remain closed? He would remain bound there, but He would be conscious and lucid- at least until He finds an alternate means of keeping the portal closed, or until Horus kills Him and conquers Terra, whichever comes first.

 

Would Rogal Dorn be able to defeat Horus with little or no aid? Would Terra's defenses hold until Ultramarine reinforcements arrive? Would Horus be defeated, and if so, how would a conscious and lucid Emperor have guided the Imperium's growth?

 

One thing is for sure, Dorn would have died like Sanguinius. Just look at what Horus did to the Emperor, right after fighting Sanguinius (one of the best fighters). I doubt they would have won had the Emperor not done that.

[Kol Saresk]

What if, at the moment Horus dropped his flagship's shields, the Emperor chose not to take the bait, and remained on the Golden Throne so the Webway portal behind it would remain closed? He would remain bound there, but He would be conscious and lucid- at least until He finds an alternate means of keeping the portal closed, or until Horus kills Him and conquers Terra, whichever comes first.

 

Would Rogal Dorn be able to defeat Horus with little or no aid? Would Terra's defenses hold until Ultramarine reinforcements arrive? Would Horus be defeated, and if so, how would a conscious and lucid Emperor have guided the Imperium's growth?

 

One thing is for sure, Dorn would have died like Sanguinius. Just look at what Horus did to the Emperor, right after fighting Sanguinius (one of the best fighters). I doubt they would have won had the Emperor not done that.

IIRC it would not be an overstatement to say that the Emperor should have lost. He was already beaten and then either the Chaos Gods left Horus or he fought them off or something and the Emperor used that moment to commit suicide and erase his son from existence.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

You're certain there's no chance Terra's defenses could hold until Ultramarine, Dark Angel, and Space Wolf reinforcements arrived? That the only way the Emperor could defeat the traitors, was to personally kill Horus?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

The Emperor could've been killed, but the Legions coming in to Terra from reinforcements would've kicked some major ass.

[Azekai]

The Emperor could've been killed, but the Legions coming in to Terra from reinforcements would've kicked some major ass.

 

They never would have arrived. With the Emperor's death the astronomican fails and those reinforcement legions get lost in the warp and chaos reigns supreme.

[Fibonacci]

If we are going to play "what if" then if the emperor was not an impetuous wrathful arse he would have listened to Magnus' warning and had Russ defending Terra instead of attacking those loyal to him.

[Schultzhoffen]

Although, didn't Magnus disrupt something important and overturned the apple-cart? Would've seemed pretty damning from the point of view of the Emperor.

 

Besides which, Magnus was meddling in things he shouldn't have. Perhaps Tzeentch had quite a say in Magnus' actions? Magnus may have been technically loyal but he was already on the road to damnation.

[Arkangilos]

What if, at the moment Horus dropped his flagship's shields, the Emperor chose not to take the bait, and remained on the Golden Throne so the Webway portal behind it would remain closed? He would remain bound there, but He would be conscious and lucid- at least until He finds an alternate means of keeping the portal closed, or until Horus kills Him and conquers Terra, whichever comes first.

 

Would Rogal Dorn be able to defeat Horus with little or no aid? Would Terra's defenses hold until Ultramarine reinforcements arrive? Would Horus be defeated, and if so, how would a conscious and lucid Emperor have guided the Imperium's growth?

 

One thing is for sure, Dorn would have died like Sanguinius. Just look at what Horus did to the Emperor, right after fighting Sanguinius (one of the best fighters). I doubt they would have won had the Emperor not done that.

IIRC it would not be an overstatement to say that the Emperor should have lost. He was already beaten and then either the Chaos Gods left Horus or he fought them off or something and the Emperor used that moment to commit suicide and erase his son from existence.

 

Everything I remember reading says that the Emperor held back because he didn't want to believe his son could do that, and he had hoped that there was a way around it. Then he saw Horus burn the Imperial Army-Fist-Custodian with a gaze and finally came to his senses, redirecting all of his power into Horus with a force that made the Gods tremble and flee. Then Horus remembered who he was, and cried a quick cry, but knew that he would be repossessed because he defaulted on some loans, and so he let the Emperor blast him out of existence.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Although, didn't Magnus disrupt something important and overturned the apple-cart? Would've seemed pretty damning from the point of view of the Emperor.

 

Besides which, Magnus was meddling in things he shouldn't have. Perhaps Tzeentch had quite a say in Magnus' actions? Magnus may have been technically loyal but he was already on the road to damnation.

 

pretty much. But those that support Magnus seem to forget that little detail.

 

and his road to damnation was sealed prior to the Emperor finding him.

 

WLK

[E.G.J.]

I'm not certain Horus would have won had the Emperor not teleported on to his battleship.

 

From White Dwarf 261, page 25:

 

"The final attack was never launched. Horus sensed the approach of the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. With all his reserves except his own Sons of Horus committed, the arrival of two fresh legions could be decisive. Horus knew he had but one card left to play. He dropped the shields on his flagship and awaited the Emperor's arrival. Horus had always known that the war must end with the death of the Emperor and that he alone had enough power to accomplish the task. He had hoped to make the task easier by fighting a demoralized Emperor, but that advantage had been lost on the battlefield thanks to the courage and resolve of the Emperor's soldiers."

 

With the Ultimate Gate still closed against the traitors and with the Emperor's Children turning from the battle to pursue their own devices, the battle was effectively a stalemate awaiting the arrival of the SW and the DA. Hence, if Horus knew that the only way to win was to face off with Big E, he surely knew that he wasn't going to reach that objective without baiting him by lowering his shields. This raises some questions.

 

1) Why did the Emperor teleport with his Primarchs if the battle around the palace was effectively a stalemate? Why not wait instead of risking everything?

 

2) Why didn't Horus try to force a personal confrontation before if he knew the only way to win was to slay Big E?

 

3) Is the account in WD 261 crap? Given that it was likely written simply to promote Codex Battlezone, it might be. I prefer not to be that cynical though.

 

Anywho, it seems things may be a tad complicated concerning the potential outcomes of the Battle for Terra. I prefer to think the fog of war and the passage of time have produced their own narratives. So to each his own.

[KarkassBC]

I don't remember exactly where but the Emperor and the loyal defenders of Terra didn't know the incoming arrival of reinforcements.

 

My idea is the Warp powers shadowed the movement or blocked the astrophatic communications except for Horus who was aware of the loyalists fleets.

 

So he lowered the shield on his battle barge to finish the fight while the Emperor thought the same. Otherwise the Emperor, as every defenders knowing the near arrival of the relief forces, continued to fight defensively maybe with more vigor (historically the defenders would let an attack only after the relief forces engaged the enemy to keep pressure on both sides)

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I don't remember exactly where but the Emperor and the loyal defenders of Terra didn't know the incoming arrival of reinforcements.

That's according to my recollections, as well.

My idea is the Warp powers shadowed the movement or blocked the astrophatic communications except for Horus who was aware of the loyalists fleets.

 

So he lowered the shield on his battle barge to finish the fight while the Emperor thought the same. Otherwise the Emperor, as every defenders knowing the near arrival of the relief forces, continued to fight defensively maybe with more vigor (historically the defenders would let an attack only after the relief forces engaged the enemy to keep pressure on both sides)

For the purposes of this 'What if...?' assume the Emperor optimistically believes help will eventually (sooner, rather than later) arrive, and stayed put. Maybe He lies to His followers, claiming reinforcements whose existence He believes are unlikely to arrive in time, will arrive in time.

[Daevyll]

Even if the Emperor didnt know the other legions were enroute (which is strange, since they follow the Atronomican, His Light, to get to Terra in the first place) then he should have known better and stayed put.

A master strategist like Horus wouldnt drop the shields on his flagship, inviting you in, if he didnt need to do so. His need to break the stalemate was obviously bigger, therefore it should be continued.

 

And if they were going to teleport aboard his barge, do it with a suicide squad carrying a few nukes/lifeeater globes for god's sake.

[Kol Saresk]

Even if the Emperor didnt know the other legions were enroute (which is strange, since they follow the Atronomican, His Light, to get to Terra in the first place) then he should have known better and stayed put.

Well he's not omnipotent. And the Astronomicon is just a big lighthouse. Lighthouses(old-fashioned ones without radars) never know when a ship is following their lights. So why would someone who set up a lighthouse and then went to sit in a big, shiny chair?

 

A master strategist like Horus wouldnt drop the shields on his flagship, inviting you in, if he didnt need to do so. His need to break the stalemate was obviously bigger, therefore it should be continued.

Yes and no. Remember, in the horror that is The Outcast Dead, the Emperor got a vision saying that if he didn't go onto the ship when the shields fail and kill Horus, the galaxy would fall to Chaos. Although by following the vision he did exactly what Chaos wanted...

 

And if they were going to teleport aboard his barge, do it with a suicide squad carrying a few nukes/lifeeater globes for god's sake.

If they were going to do that they would just teleport the nukes up there and hope and pray they didn't get lost in the warp.

[Nehekhare]

what if...horus had rolled a 6 to deny the witch against the emperor's mind bullets? :D

[Pall Ironbear]

Chaos got exactly what it wanted, a weakened Emps stuck on the star khazi, and billions of souls to play with over the next few millenia.

 

Very similar to GWs marketing strategy :)

[Bjorn Firewalker]

And if they were going to teleport aboard his barge, do it with a suicide squad carrying a few nukes/lifeeater globes for god's sake.

If they were going to do that they would just teleport the nukes up there and hope and pray they didn't get lost in the warp.

I wonder if the loyalists had any anti-starship weapons still functional at that point- it should be easier to saturate an unshielded ship with torpedoes and lance beams, right? That should force the Warmaster to withdraw, at least until his flagship is out of range of Terra's defenses- or until the reinforcements arrive, forcing Horus to quit the battle and save himself.

[Kol Saresk]

And if they were going to teleport aboard his barge, do it with a suicide squad carrying a few nukes/lifeeater globes for god's sake.

If they were going to do that they would just teleport the nukes up there and hope and pray they didn't get lost in the warp.

I wonder if the loyalists had any anti-starship weapons still functional at that point- it should be easier to saturate an unshielded ship with torpedoes and lance beams, right? That should force the Warmaster to withdraw, at least until his flagship is out of range of Terra's defenses- or until the reinforcements arrive, forcing Horus to quit the battle and save himself.

At that point in time, the Loyalists were concentrated in what was left of the Imperial Palace and the rest of Terra was being ravaged by the Emperor's Children while the full power of seven Legions and whatever forces the SoH(they hadn't committed their reserves yet) had devoted to assaulting the Palace. As well as the Traitor Titan Legios, the Dark Mechanicus and the Traitor Guard. I'm going to go with no, there weren't any surface-to-orbit weapons left since they would have been destroyed in the first stages of the Siege just so the Traitor forces could land.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Back to the main topic: assuming Malcador survives the battle, and the Emperor remains conscious and lucid, how would the Imperium develop? Would Malcador (grudgingly) permit worship of the Emperor? Would the AdMech retain its independence? Would the Inquisition be as powerful as it is in canon?

[Kol Saresk]

Canon. How I hate that word.

 

On topic: Worship of the Emperor was already happening at that point in time and had been happening since Lorgar had been found and brought into the Imperium. So the question would be more like "Would Malcador allow the worship of the Emperor to continue?" And IMHO, I don't think he would have had a choice without causing another civil war. How would the Imperium develop? The same it had before: bloodshed, violence and death. The technology might be better but the "secular" Imperial Creed would continue to exist and permeate every facet of Imperial Culture while the Lectitio Divinatus followed on its footsteps like a canker. The perfect breeding ground for Chaos. And the Inquisition per sé wouldn't exist but something in its place would most likely.

[Stormbrow II]

Remember the Emprah sent Russ to bring Magnus back to answer for his crimes. Horus said he should bring him back dead or alive. Bear in mind the Emprah did warn him.

 

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/211/3/8/iaeih__the_cyclops_by_wibblethefish-d5958l3.jpg

 

If the Emprah stayed on the chair? Horus would have marched up and just stabbed him.

[Brother Immolator]

I believe we try to rationalize this using the wrong perspectives. We both forget what the chaos cos playing gods wanted and what the shinny armored soon to be corpse soon to cos play god wanted.

IMHO both wanted the imperium to became what it is today in order to facilitate their overlaid multicomplex plans that would eventually culminate in the final battle. Given that as to my understanding there are not gods in 40k but superpowerful and intelligent entities that can to some extend manipulate reality, they wanted to force events into a final confrontation (albeit within the span of a few thousand years, after all what are 10k years to immortals?) which will bring a single victor.

The irony is both groups, hatched the same overtly complex plan by manipulating and trolling one another, while they cannot see the ultimate conclusion. Perhaps Tzeentch can but he wont tell. And that makes him the biggest troll in the galaxy. And that mentlegen and sydal is my belief: That the whole history of 40k is a trolling and irony of the highest degree.

 

Somebody shoot me so I can return on topic please?

 

Ahem:

 

So you see, if the emperor kept sitting on his gold toilet, I believe the DA and the puppies would arrive. I dont believe that Horus was able to breach the imperial palace. And that speaks volumes. If you cant breach a complex the size of a continent while you outnumber your enemy...well grab a beer you need it.

 

Hold out was the best option. Even when the two other fleets arrived Horus if he had a brain cell left would then simply jump to the warp with whatever left. And then things would radically change. First of all we would have the glorious reforms of Guillyman. That means the big E would reorganize the place and it would be still effective, all the while mopping up whats left of the traitors and reclaiming the imperium. A speculation on my part calls for designing a substitute (primarch like perhaps) for sitting on the toilet and completing the webway beneath terra, quite possibly leading to repairing the whole thing eventually as opposed to the eldar. Whoever of the primarchs were left would continue leading their chapters with the DA perhaps following the same route and eventually gaining a pardon from the E and healing Johnson (you dont want another 10k sons incident after finding out how good the first one gone).

 

On a side note the admech was technically independent from preheresy. Thats one of the interpretations of the double headed aquila.

 

Religion. Now thats a good one. If I was the emperor I would say: fword it. Yes I am god worship me and be done with it. It would be more effective and there wouldnt be much heresy because some would have seen him moving talking and breathing.

 

On the other-side of things, with Horus alive after the subsequent infighting died over (thats cliche for the evil guys you cant avoid it) he would reunite them and this time with competent leadership around the end of times would come sooner than the 41stm. I doubt they would make 13 crusades.

 

So its a win win for anyone.

 

I hope you liked the light tone of the above post. I was just tired of this grim darkness and wanted to make it a bit colorful ,)

[Zynk Kaladin]

1) Why did the Emperor teleport with his Primarchs if the battle around the palace was effectively a stalemate? Why not wait instead of risking everything?

 

Have your own beloved son betray you and try not to confront him personally when given the chance. (not directed at you personally)

 

The Emperor, despite his epicness, is only human after all.

[Kol Saresk]

@Brother Immolator: IIRC, didn't the Traitor Forces breach the palace all the way to the Eternity Gate, which IIRC, was the door to the Golden Throne wasn't it? Not picking wounds are anything, just pointing out that the Palace, the most well-defended structure in the universe besides maybe the Black Library, was breached.

 

And also, if you recall the future the cabal wanted to bring about was the one in which Horus one because he would drive Humanity into a suicidal frenzy that would destroy the species and take the Chaos Gods with it. While in the one where Horus lost-no mention of the Emperor was made, just Horus losing- Humanity would become the breeding ground for Chaos that sounds eerily reminiscent of the modern 40k and would result in a slow fusion between Humanity and Chaos that would result in a similar fusion between the material and immaterial realms. Not to force a final confrontation, just to bring the two realms together so the Chaos Gods can live forever.