If Malcador didn't sit on the Golden Throne

[Brother Immolator]

Who knows what the cabal is and what their true motives are though? Can you be certain that they have the best interests of humanity at heart? They could be spreading lies and misinformation for all we know.

 

And honestly you are right, I had forgotten about that tid bit. Thats were Khârn died impaled on a spike too right? Looks like Horus didn't need a beer after all.

 

Point is though, he didn't have time. Even if he managed to open the gate he would have to face the custodian guard, the remainder of the BA and IF and every other legion in there commanded by the big E. himself and several primarchs. Not a small task to achieve on each own.

[jc1138]

This is one of the things I'm most looking forward to them getting around to BL's HH series because to me there are so many unanswered questions. I get why Horus lowered his shields: he was in a weaker position, with outmatched forces, loyalists reserves (DA, SW, UM) were closer and more numerous (correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos reinforcements were also on the way, but the Emperor's legions were closer). Horus gambles that the Emperor will come and attack him on his flagship.

 

What I've never been clear on is why the Emperor takes the bait. Could he not send Sanguinius, Dorn, and Khan? Perhaps he knows that even these THREE primarchs would not be enough to take on Horus, or maybe the opportunity to gather them up wasn't available while the shields were lowered. Could the Emperor not just wait for Russ, the Lion, and Guilliman to arrive, strengthening his position? Even if the Emperor wasn't aware of these reinforcements he could assess the battlefield situation and see he has a superior position. Yes, I realize for the story to work we need the Emperor and Horus on that bridge one-on-one, but so far I don't feel like we've been given enough of a satisfactory explanation about why he went up there.

 

Generally speaking, people roughly seem to take one of three views of the Emperor:

1) He is the protector of mankind, and is willing to sacrifice himself and his own interests for their welfare.

2) He is self-interested, perhaps seeking godhood, certainly trying to dominate the galaxy and set himself up as a power.

3) He is dumb.

 

If he is the first or third, his actions make the most sense in terms of Horus's gambit (however, some of the questions above are still unanswered).

 

Could the Emperor perhaps have been deceived that Horus had, or would soon have, a superior position? Such a change in the Siege of Terra established lore would really alter how we see it.

[jc1138]

1) Why did the Emperor teleport with his Primarchs if the battle around the palace was effectively a stalemate? Why not wait instead of risking everything?

 

Have your own beloved son betray you and try not to confront him personally when given the chance. (not directed at you personally)

 

The Emperor, despite his epicness, is only human after all.

 

This may be the reason the Emperor goes on Horus's ship after all. The Emperor could think "I'll take care of him myself," or he could believe he could even redeem Horus--the Emperor is nothing if not proud. However, I struggle a bit with this:

1) We've haven't been clearly told (afaik) that the Emperor goes after Horus for either of these reasons.

2) Why would he put himself in such risk?

3) Is the Emperor just that much more attached to Horus? He's sent others to take care of his precious "sons" before (Russ to Magnus, although he didn't send him to kill him, Magnus would probably have reacted very differently had the Emperor himself showed up on Prospero). Yes, E and Horus have a special relationship but is it so much more than any other?

4) The Emperor can be a ruthless sob, and is willing to do whatever it takes to realize his goals. Perhaps this moment of sentiment or personal vendetta is what brings about his undoing?

[Brother Immolator]

My take is that he is neither dumb nor seeking godhood (he is capable of holding the 4 chaos powers at bay, so pretty much he is in all but name). He has a plan, a really good plan (or so he thinks at least) on how to unite mankind and bring it out of a permanent darkness. There is no sentimentality in this plan. Everything that has to be done will be done. And then all comes crumbling down. Because of one mistake. The man who unfolded a plan for 40k years, taking note of every little detail and molding every little event up to that point cant see that his own creation will rebel against him. I just don't buy it.

 

As I said before to me both the Emperor and the 4 chaos powers are playing chess, to the victor go the spoils.

[jc1138]

My take is that he is neither dumb nor seeking godhood (he is capable of holding the 4 chaos powers at bay, so pretty much he is in all but name). He has a plan, a really good plan (or so he thinks at least) on how to unite mankind and bring it out of a permanent darkness. There is no sentimentality in this plan. Everything that has to be done will be done. And then all comes crumbling down. Because of one mistake.

 

So, to you, is this mistake thinking Horus would/could not turn on him? (That seems to me what you are saying above). Teleporting onto Horus's ship?

 

Just trying to get clarification on your point.

 

BTW, I agree that the Emp is neither seeking godhood nor dumb. I think people keep calling him stupid because not all the choices of so powerful and supposedly benevolent a man are perfect.

[Onisuzume]

You're certain there's no chance Terra's defenses could hold until Ultramarine, Dark Angel, and Space Wolf reinforcements arrived? That the only way the Emperor could defeat the traitors, was to personally kill Horus?

Terra could have hold, but they had no idea those reinforcements were comming.

Horus, however, did, and that's why he made the gamble, a last ditch effort in an attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

[The_Excubitors]

As I said before to me both the Emperor and the 4 chaos powers are playing chess, to the victor go the spoils.

 

That says it. I think the Emperor had goals that are not what we would consider in the "interest" of humanity or even his Imperium. He either risked it all and lost to achieve dominance over the Chaos gods, or he joined them. Both seem equally likely to me, either way I am sure he knew that teleporting in to confront Horus personally wasn't in the best interest of his Empire.

[jc1138]

As I said before to me both the Emperor and the 4 chaos powers are playing chess, to the victor go the spoils.

 

That says it. I think the Emperor had goals that are not what we would consider in the "interest" of humanity or even his Imperium. He either risked it all and lost to achieve dominance over the Chaos gods, or he joined them. Both seem equally likely to me, either way I am sure he knew that teleporting in to confront Horus personally wasn't in the best interest of his Empire.

 

The chess metaphor doesn't hold together to me unless the stakes are to the death. To play chess implies some level of distance, using pawns, etc. when the Emperor has a lot at stake (life as he knows it). For the Emperor to play chess during the Siege of Terra would be like one player shrinking himself down and entering the chess-board to fight against embodied pieces to get a potential check-mate. (I know there are theories saying that the result was really an E victory or a Chaos one, and both make good points, I subscribe to the stalemate theory myself).

[Brother Immolator]

My take is that he is neither dumb nor seeking godhood (he is capable of holding the 4 chaos powers at bay, so pretty much he is in all but name). He has a plan, a really good plan (or so he thinks at least) on how to unite mankind and bring it out of a permanent darkness. There is no sentimentality in this plan. Everything that has to be done will be done. And then all comes crumbling down. Because of one mistake.

 

So, to you, is this mistake thinking Horus would/could not turn on him? (That seems to me what you are saying above). Teleporting onto Horus's ship?

 

Just trying to get clarification on your point.

 

BTW, I agree that the Emp is neither seeking godhood nor dumb. I think people keep calling him stupid because not all the choices of so powerful and supposedly benevolent a man are perfect.

 

My point is that though the empy is powerful and clever and all that, he made a mistake. Or more precisely two mistakes. He either didnt knew or miscalculated the arrival of the DA and SW and acted in desperation by boarding the ship. The second mistake is that for a brief moment he believed that Horus could be saved and that cost him his body.

 

Ofc all could be a game of chess and he knew that eventually push will come to shove and everything will happen as it did in order to facilitate certain other events we dont know yet.

[Brother Immolator]

The chess metaphor doesn't hold together to me unless the stakes are to the death. To play chess implies some level of distance, using pawns, etc. when the Emperor has a lot at stake (life as he knows it). For the Emperor to play chess during the Siege of Terra would be like one player shrinking himself down and entering the chess-board to fight against embodied pieces to get a potential check-mate. (I know there are theories saying that the result was really an E victory or a Chaos one, and both make good points, I subscribe to the stalemate theory myself).

 

Ofc the stakes are to the death. He gambles against the 4 single most powerful entities of the known universe and he tries to outsmart them. And lets not forget that one of them boasts to know everything (Tzeentch).

As for pawns. Werent the Primarchs and the Legions used to an extent as such? The very resentment that formed the foundation of the Heresy was (to name at least) the very fact that the emperor had returned to terra and left the marines and Primarchs behind without even telling them why. I have read this in the first two books at least 20 times. To his justification powerful as he was, he could not be everywhere at the same time and do everything. He needed loyal subjects to do work for him.

 

A side note: What I compare to a game of chess is not the actions that led to the boarding of the vessel. I am refering to the whole conflict between the emperor and chaos. The emperor engineered his plans as soon as he reached the age to do so. We know this of many accounts, as did chaos (it is told multiple times as well). The very scattering of the Primarchs was a well executed move by both players. The chaos powers scattered them in a gamble to corrupt or destroy them (partial success) and the emperor might have allowed it to happern in order to add personalities and traits to the superhuman blank slates that the Primarchs were (partial success as well).

So this chess round is thousands of years old.

[jc1138]

My take is that he is neither dumb nor seeking godhood (he is capable of holding the 4 chaos powers at bay, so pretty much he is in all but name). He has a plan, a really good plan (or so he thinks at least) on how to unite mankind and bring it out of a permanent darkness. There is no sentimentality in this plan. Everything that has to be done will be done. And then all comes crumbling down. Because of one mistake.

 

So, to you, is this mistake thinking Horus would/could not turn on him? (That seems to me what you are saying above). Teleporting onto Horus's ship?

 

Just trying to get clarification on your point.

 

BTW, I agree that the Emp is neither seeking godhood nor dumb. I think people keep calling him stupid because not all the choices of so powerful and supposedly benevolent a man are perfect.

 

My point is that though the empy is powerful and clever and all that, he made a mistake. Or more precisely two mistakes. He either didnt knew or miscalculated the arrival of the DA and SW and acted in desperation by boarding the ship. The second mistake is that for a brief moment he believed that Horus could be saved and that cost him his body.

 

Ofc all could be a game of chess and he knew that eventually push will come to shove and everything will happen as it did in order to facilitate certain other events we dont know yet.

 

I agree about E making some mistakes, both in jumping the gun on attacking Horus's ship when the shields were down, and in misunderstanding Horus and/or Chaos. However, so far the Siege of Terra has been painting in broad (and, at times, conflicting) strokes that we can't be sure what the E really knew and when. While I'm looking forward to BL's take on it, I'm aware that people will always have "their" version of events. So far, it seems that there are parts of the Siege that don't add up.

[carpediem]

On the original topic:

IMHO Malcador being alive might not help much; he is more than capable of running the admin side of the show, but seems to prefer to work from tha shadows (this is the master of assassins after all). I'm not sure he has the charisma or the psychic omph necessary to leverage any significant improvement over what Guilliman managed, except that he knows which cupboards hide some of the Imperium's nastier skeletons.

 

On the subject of the Emperor's tactical boneheadedness:

1) Fluff would sugest he honestly didn't know when, or even if, re-inforcements would arrive. His options are thus: sit and wait for the traitors to wear down the remaining palace defences or for the food and water to start running out (even marines have to eat), or take a gamble and spring a very obvious trap in the hopes of making a quick end to a messy civil war (c.f. Leto I Atreides).

 

2) It is entirely possible that the Emperor may have become attached to Horus. Consider: humans are very brief candles (c50yrs is the current global average) by comparison to the E, who is functionally immortal; this is going to make for a lot of lonely over 40k years. The Primarchs are amongst the first people who have been around long enough to be worth any sort of emotional investment, and of them Horus has been around the longest. It may be that what started as acting the Father figure to get Horus on side has turned into genuine affection and love over time, to the point that Horus has moved beyond being a disposable tool and is now considered a real son (Kurze and Magnus aren't that 'lucky') and all that entails. I can tell you from experience that parents will move mountains and do very illogical things to save their children from lives of crime/addiction etc. before turining to the appropriate authourities (never mind that the E is the appropriate authourity here, you know what I mean).

 

3) The E trained Horus, at least in part; he probably thinks he has some measure of Horus' capacities, hence thinks he knows what he is getting in for.

 

4) This is technically the Emperor's mess, he may want to clear it up in person.

[jc1138]

On the original topic:

IMHO Malcador being alive might not help much; he is more than capable of running the admin side of the show, but seems to prefer to work from tha shadows (this is the master of assassins after all). I'm not sure he has the charisma or the psychic omph necessary to leverage any significant improvement over what Guilliman managed, except that he knows which cupboards hide some of the Imperium's nastier skeletons.

 

On the subject of the Emperor's tactical boneheadedness:

1) Fluff would sugest he honestly didn't know when, or even if, re-inforcements would arrive. His options are thus: sit and wait for the traitors to wear down the remaining palace defences or for the food and water to start running out (even marines have to eat), or take a gamble and spring a very obvious trap in the hopes of making a quick end to a messy civil war (c.f. Leto I Atreides).

 

2) It is entirely possible that the Emperor may have become attached to Horus. Consider: humans are very brief candles (c50yrs is the current global average) by comparison to the E, who is functionally immortal; this is going to make for a lot of lonely over 40k years. The Primarchs are amongst the first people who have been around long enough to be worth any sort of emotional investment, and of them Horus has been around the longest. It may be that what started as acting the Father figure to get Horus on side has turned into genuine affection and love over time, to the point that Horus has moved beyond being a disposable tool and is now considered a real son (Kurze and Magnus aren't that 'lucky') and all that entails. I can tell you from experience that parents will move mountains and do very illogical things to save their children from lives of crime/addiction etc. before turining to the appropriate authourities (never mind that the E is the appropriate authourity here, you know what I mean).

 

3) The E trained Horus, at least in part; he probably thinks he has some measure of Horus' capacities, hence thinks he knows what he is getting in for.

 

4) This is technically the Emperor's mess, he may want to clear it up in person.

 

I don't know that we've strayed much from the OP (looks around for mods). You are drawing comparisons with Dune, with Malcador and Thufir Hawat. I hadn't considered this before but it is a good connection, as they are both masters of assassins and serve other clandestine needs of their masters. However, we are told numerous times that Malcador, while human rather than super-enhanced, has extraordinarily strong psychic powers (I've always ranked him as below the Emperor and Magnus, but above other humans. It's hard to say how he compares to the other primarchs, whose psychic powers are so sketchily defined as of yet). Malcador also, as others have pointed out, has many parallels with the Merlin figure (wizard at the side of king).

 

(Can't recall exactly where, but I remember reading on these forums a theory that Malcador was the "real" Emperor, and he created the E we know in a similar way the Primarchs were created. While I found it a fascinating idea, I doubt GW has been setting us up for the last 25+ years just to say "ha ha, it was really someone else all along" and get a plot twist.)

 

On your 2nd point, if the Emperor acts out of sentimentality for Horus, would this be the one time he does so (that we know of), and thus the cause of his fall? He certainly has been shown with a remarkable lack of sentiment before (thunder warriors, Lorgar, Angron, etc).

[Bjorn Firewalker]

On the original topic:

IMHO Malcador being alive might not help much; he is more than capable of running the admin side of the show, but seems to prefer to work from tha shadows (this is the master of assassins after all). I'm not sure he has the charisma or the psychic omph necessary to leverage any significant improvement over what Guilliman managed, except that he knows which cupboards hide some of the Imperium's nastier skeletons.

The OP was NOT "What would happen if Malcador survived?" but "What would happen if the Emperor remained conscious, lucid, and able to guide the Imperium himself?" I assumed, correctly or not, the only ways this would happen would be (1) if He didn't teleport aboard Horus' flagship, meaning He remained on the Golden Throne until the siege ended, or (2) if He teleported aboard Horus' flagship, and then fought without the emotional restraints that limited Him in canon.

On the subject of the Emperor's tactical boneheadedness:

1) Fluff would sugest he honestly didn't know when, or even if, re-inforcements would arrive. His options are thus: sit and wait for the traitors to wear down the remaining palace defences or for the food and water to start running out (even marines have to eat), or take a gamble and spring a very obvious trap in the hopes of making a quick end to a messy civil war (c.f. Leto I Atreides).

For the purposes of the OP, assume the Emperor decided to gamble on reinforcements arriving in time, NOT on Horus' moment of vulnerability.

2) It is entirely possible that the Emperor may have become attached to Horus. Consider: humans are very brief candles (c50yrs is the current global average) by comparison to the E, who is functionally immortal; this is going to make for a lot of lonely over 40k years. The Primarchs are amongst the first people who have been around long enough to be worth any sort of emotional investment, and of them Horus has been around the longest. It may be that what started as acting the Father figure to get Horus on side has turned into genuine affection and love over time, to the point that Horus has moved beyond being a disposable tool and is now considered a real son (Kurze and Magnus aren't that 'lucky') and all that entails. I can tell you from experience that parents will move mountains and do very illogical things to save their children from lives of crime/addiction etc. before turining to the appropriate authourities (never mind that the E is the appropriate authourity here, you know what I mean).

 

3) The E trained Horus, at least in part; he probably thinks he has some measure of Horus' capacities, hence thinks he knows what he is getting in for.

 

4) This is technically the Emperor's mess, he may want to clear it up in person.

All valid points.

I don't know that we've strayed much from the OP (looks around for mods). You are drawing comparisons with Dune, with Malcador and Thufir Hawat. I hadn't considered this before but it is a good connection, as they are both masters of assassins and serve other clandestine needs of their masters. However, we are told numerous times that Malcador, while human rather than super-enhanced, has extraordinarily strong psychic powers (I've always ranked him as below the Emperor and Magnus, but above other humans.

Now I'm curious what would happen if Malcador accompanied Sanguinius and Dorn aboard Horus' flagship. He's unlikely to survive combat with the Warmaster, but could he survive long enough to distract Horus from... say, Dorn sneaking up to stab Horus in the back? Can he at least serve as a meat shield for Sanguinius, allowing the Blood Angels Primarch to deliver a killing blow?