Blood Angel Anti-Flyer options

[Brando]

So I was playing a lower level game, at 1250 points and ran into some problems with Guard Vendetta's. What is the BA's best anti-flyer options? We have our own flyer with the Storm Raven, Is the defense line with a quad gun worth it for BA? My force is usually pretty mobile and I'm not really down with the idea of static defenses. I saw that forge world has some option that BA can use, there were the static missle batteries and a special anti-air whirlwind. does anyone have any experience with those? I feel like I could just say my normal whirlwind is the special anti-air whirlwind bc they look almost identical. I also read somewhere that you can use a devastator seargent's signum to shoot at flyers in zoom mode with his BS of 5. Is there any truth to that? thanks guys.

[mmaarrkk]

Hyperios air defence are very good against flyers, 35 points a piece for twin linked interceptor krak missiles, 0-4 per unit. Not used the whirlwind one though

 

Nope you cannot use the signum to modify a snap shot. I Personnaly run a half mobile half static BA Army, with ML devi;s with libby behind a aegis with quad gun, use prescience on the devi's and with the quad gun it does ok against flyers

 

Storm ravens are of course very good against other flyers

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Nope you cannot use the signum to modify a snap shot. I Personnaly run a half mobile half static BA Army, with ML devi;s with libby behind a aegis with quad gun, use prescience on the devi's and with the quad gun it does ok against flyer

 

But Quad Gun and Icarus Lascannon don't snap-shot at flyers. So I believe you CAN use the signum for the model that is manning that weapon for the turn. However, the signum can only be used in your own shooting phase (as I read it) so you wouldn't be able to use it for an interceptor shot taken during your opponent's turn.

[JAMOB]

No idea what hyperios are, but...

 

Ravens are great cuz MM/LC kills most fliers period, + PotMS is nice for that.

 

Baals are good too, because with the standard AV10 flier 6 HB shots 4 hit 1-2 glance/pen. 4 AC shots 3-4 hit (TL) ~2 glance/pen.

Thats 3 glances average, killing most fliers. VS AV11, slightly worse. vs AV12 its much worse, as the HB cant hurt it, but still decent. If only they had PotMS...

[Brother Maikel]

But Quad Gun and Icarus Lascannon don't snap-shot at flyers. So I believe you CAN use the signum for the model that is manning that weapon for the turn. However, the signum can only be used in your own shooting phase (as I read it) so you wouldn't be able to use it for an interceptor shot taken during your opponent's turn.

 

Nah, GW eliminated the Signum option in the last major round of FAQ's.

 

I find a Stormraven with TLAC + TLMM + Hurricane Bolters is the best loadout for Anti-Air. TLAC > TLLC when it comes to penetrating AV14, and the TLAC has a greater chance of getting multiple glances, potentially wrecking the enemy flyer. The TLMM also helps a lot, and against any AV10 flyer or T7 or less FMC the hurricane bolters are likely to get 10-11 hits. Even with only glancing/wounding on a 6, that's still 1-2 forced saves. Also, don't forget the bloodstrike missiles: S8 AP1 at crazy long ranges can really mess up an enemy flyer's day.

 

Just a note, though: if the Raven uses POTMS to shoot at a ground target and a flying target only one gets to hit at full BS. The other target will only get hit on 6's. This is because Flyers/FMCs get to choose whether or not to have Skyfire for the round, not whether each weapon gets Skyfire. Thus either all of them have it (and hit flyers at full BS, snap-shooting at ground units) or none of them do (and hit ground units at full BS, snap-shooting at flyers).

[Sokhar]

the standard AV10 flier

 

Which would be what, exactly? Out of the flyers you're most likely to encounter, not one is AV 10. Vendetta is 12 on front and side, Raven is 12 all round, Necron flyers are 11 all round, and the Helldrake is 12 on front and side. So what exactly would a "standard AV 10 flyer" consist of? Dark Eldar? The crap stuff like the Arvus Lighter from IA?

[ianj253]

I believe, dark eldar have on flyer that is front 11 and 10 sides and back. The other is 10 all around. I'm not a 100% sure, but I Think ork dakka jets are 10 all around.

[JAMOB]

the standard AV10 flier

 

Which would be what, exactly? Out of the flyers you're most likely to encounter, not one is AV 10. Vendetta is 12 on front and side, Raven is 12 all round, Necron flyers are 11 all round, and the Helldrake is 12 on front and side. So what exactly would a "standard AV 10 flyer" consist of? Dark Eldar? The crap stuff like the Arvus Lighter from IA?

TBH Im not really sure, I just assumed - Still though, Baals w/ AC/HB are pretty good anti-flier overall. My bad on that, but the point is still valid. And TBH, with rear AV10 on any flier you can hit it fairly often as they fly over you alot to do their attacks, and then turn. Just takes a little maneuvering.

[mmaarrkk]

No idea what hyperios are, but...

 

Ravens are great cuz MM/LC kills most fliers period, + PotMS is nice for that.

 

Baals are good too, because with the standard AV10 flier 6 HB shots 4 hit 1-2 glance/pen. 4 AC shots 3-4 hit (TL) ~2 glance/pen.

Thats 3 glances average, killing most fliers. VS AV11, slightly worse. vs AV12 its much worse, as the HB cant hurt it, but still decent. If only they had PotMS...

 

Hyperios are the forgeworld unit he asked about in the first post, latest details found in imperial armor aeronautica,

 

 

Even the storm talons are AV11, Orks flyers are the only AV10 flyer you are going to commonly see imo, POTMS wouldnt affect the snap shot either if thats what you mean?,

 

Brother Maikel, Funnily enough used two Ravens at a tourny yesterday and faced 3 LR's in one game and 1 in another, the assault cannons did more damage then the MM's!!, one was blown up by MM shot, the other two were blown up by assault cannon rending shots! yes it was just the luck of the die but still AC arent to be underestimated!.

 

Saying that one of the ravens (with typhoon, AC and hurricane bolters) went out a deepstriking set of Termies, 23 wounds were put on them and not one died, 2 saves were failed and 2 FNP's were made!, damn those death wing!

[Sokhar]

TBH Im not really sure, I just assumed - Still though, Baals w/ AC/HB are pretty good anti-flier overall. My bad on that, but the point is still valid. And TBH, with rear AV10 on any flier you can hit it fairly often as they fly over you alot to do their attacks, and then turn. Just takes a little maneuvering.

 

No, they're not. Flyers are only hit on 6's, which clearly you forgot about while doing your earlier math. If the Baal gets every shot off, you're looking at around 1 heavy bolter hit and 1-1.5 assault cannon hits, resulting in less than one damage result statistically. And if you think its easy to maneuver to hit rear armor on a flyer, then its obscenely easy for a flyer to hit side armor on a Baal. They are in no way an anti-flyer platform whatsoever.

 

BA pretty much have to look at flyers of our own--either Storm Ravens, or allied Vendetta(s)--or an Aegis Line with Quadgun for flyer defense. The next best thing we have would be twin-linked assault cannons on razorbacks/Baals, but those are comparatively poor options. For genuine ground-based flyer defense (outside of the aegis) you need to either have skyfire from flakk missiles (costly) or a weapon of putting out multiple, high-strength shots. The best ground-based anti-flyer is the necron twin-linked tesla destructor, getting 4 strength 7 shots, with every 6 (and thus, hit against flyers) yielding an extra two hits. Necrons are spoiled for anti-air because they have such cheap effective flyers of their own, but the equally cheap Annihilation Barge puts out effective firepower while packing sufficient armor (13 on front and sides until they suffer a penetrating hit) to frustrate most flyers even when they get the first shot.

[Kickrock]

Without bringing Forge World units into play (due to lack of knowledge);

 

One way you can do this is Storm Ravens. Consider that the Storm Raven can fire on two targets in the same turn. Your enemy brings in his 3 Flyers turn 2. You come in (because you went second, obviously), MM range of one and then unload the Assault Cannon and two Hell Fire Missiles into the other. You potentially drop two flyers as soon as they come in. Multiple Storm Ravens? Multiple Carnage. Probably the strongest flyer in the game right now.

 

The next is Allies. For an investment of more points you can get a Vendetta, which in itself is significantly cheaper than a Storm Raven. This also comes with an HQ and some troops. A great investment if you ask me! Plus the fact that they are a "squadron" allows you to take multiple, granted they won't act independant of each other.

 

Or you could take the ADL with the Lass / Quad gun. Plant some Devs, Scouts or Tactical Marines in there. Interceptor means you can drop it when it comes in, but that means this station will get the brunt of the enemy fire power turn one. Great if you can hide it, not worth it otherwise.

 

Otherwise you can do Anti Air the Orc way and just mass shots at something. Baals can be scary with up to 14 shots (4 AC w/ reroll, 6 HB) and Devistators with a Priest (4 Lass/Missile shots w/ Reroll or 12 HB shots w/ reroll) can also do the trick. The problem here is on Av10 you're needing 5 to glance with those Heavy Bolters. The chances of you rolling a 6, then a 6 again is pretty slim. Possible, but slim.

 

I mean... there are options. You just have to look for them. Ignoring flyers all together and focus on key positioning and abuse of cover is another strategy that you see Tyranids having to play to. Not suggested, but you can do it. Really, a full squadron of Vendettas can't take out a single Tactical Squad a turn (... without heavy bolters).

[TheHarrower]

I find the Aegis Defense Line to be a points trap honestly. The Quad-gun is good, no doubt, but after you pay for it you are looking at 200 points just to man it with Scouts. Plus, the unit is fairly static and isn't very flexible. I'd rather take a Stormraven for anti-air. When I do take the Aegis Defense Line, I do so for the Comms Relay when I have a lot of reserves (i.e. 2 Stormravens). Just my 2 cents.

[Brando]

I appreciate all the input folks, I have never used these fortifications before, so to use the quad-gun on the Aegis defense line I have to have a unit in base contact with it. then that whole unit can't do anythig else? or just one guy in the unit?

[Brother Maikel]

I find the Aegis Defense Line to be a points trap honestly. The Quad-gun is good, no doubt, but after you pay for it you are looking at 200 points just to man it with Scouts. Plus, the unit is fairly static and isn't very flexible. I'd rather take a Stormraven for anti-air. When I do take the Aegis Defense Line, I do so for the Comms Relay when I have a lot of reserves (i.e. 2 Stormravens). Just my 2 cents.

 

 

If you've already got a unit in your list that can man it, such as a Devastator or Tac squad, adding an ADL + Quad Gun to help with Anti-Air and other Reserves isn't a bad idea. You don't have to just use it against flyers, after all. It also works on daemons, drop pods, deathwing, and other deep strikers, plus anything else that arrives from reserve. And if they have nothing reserved, you're paying 100pts to give your backfield objective holder or fire support unit a 48" 4xTL S7 AP4 weapon and a 4+ or 2+ cover save.

 

That said, I agree that I wouldn't add an ADL+Quad Gun+Unit to man it just for anti-air. Treat it as an upgrade to an existing unit, not a thing in its own right.

[DominicJ]

A baal has a one in seven chance of penning a raven, not good odds.

 

Ravens or tactics remains our way of dealing with air.

[Lord Fancy Pants]

Ravens are the best for now, but that may change when (if) they FAQ a skyfire option onto Dev MLs.

[JAMOB]

Even the storm talons are AV11, Orks flyers are the only AV10 flyer you are going to commonly see imo, POTMS wouldnt affect the snap shot either if thats what you mean?,

No I meant that you could then shoot that AC but not the HB at the flier, shooting the HB at something else (I think thats what I was saying)

 

TBH Im not really sure, I just assumed - Still though, Baals w/ AC/HB are pretty good anti-flier overall. My bad on that, but the point is still valid. And TBH, with rear AV10 on any flier you can hit it fairly often as they fly over you alot to do their attacks, and then turn. Just takes a little maneuvering.

 

No, they're not. Flyers are only hit on 6's, which clearly you forgot about while doing your earlier math. If the Baal gets every shot off, you're looking at around 1 heavy bolter hit and 1-1.5 assault cannon hits, resulting in less than one damage result statistically. And if you think its easy to maneuver to hit rear armor on a flyer, then its obscenely easy for a flyer to hit side armor on a Baal. They are in no way an anti-flyer platform whatsoever.

Sorry about that, I honestly have no idea what I was thinking. Revised: They will hit 1-2 on average (w/ TL), then on most fliers have a good chance of a glance/pen. Against AV11 its even better. Baals are not nearly as good as Ravens/Aegis at Anti-air, but they are still good to have. Against a single flier, the thing is unlikely to do significant damage before being taken down (2-3 turns, after not being in for a while). Ravens are preferable of course, but still Baals are viable. Just not as viable - especially with 2 of them. Then everything doubles.

[Red Fury]

Morollan was able to knock down 2 Storm Raven with shocking ease in a 1200pt Angel on Angel matchup:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=265081

 

In short, a quad gun gets one on arrival, and a tactical squad downs the other when it switches over to hover.

 

It seems to me that if you aren't going to bring a quad-gun in some form, then you'll need a flyer of your own. Sure there are ally options, but our own Storm Raven can bring the most to the fight.

[JamesI]

Storm Ravens are good at anti-flyer. Better than a Quad gun usually.

 

I have had bad luck with quad guns. If I am counting on it for anti-flyer it gets shot down fast. If its a backup to better anti-flyers (such as Storm Ravens) it survives.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Mass twin assault cannons. One Baal isn't much of a threat, but 4+ assbacks + 1-2 Baals is another thing.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Against AV12, the Quad gun is very unreliable. The only good thing it does is to hit on BS, but that's about it. S7 is not going to cut it, and then there's still the coversave that fliers get(not sure on the english term), after which they can only fire snapshots.

 

Sure, against Dark Eldar fliers, the thing is cool. Otherwise, it glances on 5s and penetrates on 6s. Anything else is a wasted shot, so you're basically challenging your fate and luck, and you shouldn't do that. ;)

 

What Blood Angels can do about fliers, as many before me said, is the Stormraven. Right now, it's the best flier out there. It's expensive, but so versatile being able to fight troops/tanks on the ground as well as firing its rockets on other fliers. Only Grey Knights have access to this baby besides us, and their rockets are not usable against your common enemy flier.

 

Assault Cannons from ground-based units are needed in masses, but that also means to ignore the majority of enemy ground-based units if you're firing at fliers with them.

 

 

 

Snorri

[mmaarrkk]

I did see some math hammer that actually proved the quad gun is better then the lascannon as there are more shots you have a better probability to pen it, of course the plus one on the damage chart helps a bit.

 

If I am facing one enemy flyer it gets ignored (if I am not running the raven, if I am I'll pop it at some point depending what other juicy targets there are) if more then one flyer and they are good I'll use my raven on them but not my ground troops unless they have nothing better to shoot at.

[Djulius]

With regards to using an ADL with scouts (Camo), yes it'll cost 200 points and be static... so make it scoring by putting it on an objective in your deployment zone in most of the scenarios! How many objective holders will cost much less, apart from a basic 5 man tactical squad at 90 points fully exposed without the cover saves? Give them sniper rifles to pick off other targets from 36", Missile Launcher option too.

 

Oh yes, and it's good at taking down flyers...

 

Sure they'll attract a lot of fire as a result, meanwhile your main force charges forward? Presenting your opponents with tricky choices is part of the game. Price worth paying especially alongside a Storm Raven? BTW You definitely don't want to go first if possible... get their flying targets on the board first!