Lorgar and Angron

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Just wondering if these two have ever squared of in the past?

 

I like the gods prophet squaring of in combat with the Avatar of the War god.

 

I ask as I have not yeat read through any of the books after Legion and am just curious.

 

Thank you all :)

[Olis]

I doubt it. Angron would probably have murderised him. Lorgar isn't exactly the hardest nail in the box when it comes to the primarch brotherhood - I'm basing that off of what I remember from The First Heretic.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I thought he ended up showing more charatcer as the books went on? I know corax nearly wrote him off. but with more of the dark gods infulence behind him, do you think he'd be more devestating?

[Noctus Cornix]

Perhaps but, Angron is easily one of the most powerful and skilled Primarch's with a blade. And you must also remember that while Lorgar grew in the influences of the dark gods, so did Angron.

 

Even if they did square off, no matter what Angron would cream the little pipsqueak.

[King Willy]

The gods only show favour to the strong, as much as The Word Bearers were the spark for the Heresy, Horus was the favoured son, Lorgar probably got enough power to sway the average Word Bearer and to entice the Primarch to fall, as soon as Lorgar gets in some big trouble I bet he needs to be saved by Old Erebus, Kor Pheron and one of them smexy possessed.

 

Angron would cleave him in two and the gods would laugh as they slurped up his soul like the soup of the day.

[Kol Saresk]

He does get more power and there is a close call in Butcher's Nails, but nothing happened. Ironically in Aurelian, Lorgar was able to take on Ann'grath the Unbound and win. It goes along with something A-D-B says that was like, what determines a person's strength at that point in time is not relative to to their strength before or after that point. Or something like that. I remember it has something to do with just because they were able to do something before, like Lorgar beating a Bloodthirster, doesn't mean they would be able to do something of equal or lesser extent later on, like Lorgar taking on Corax. We also have to remember that up until Istvaan V, the theory to actually turn Traitor had been just a theory so Lorgar went through that "Wow, we're actually doing this." while with Ann'grath it was "I'm fighting for survival."

 

IMO, there were only a handful of Legions that when it came time to ride the buck, they did it without blinking. As a gerneral.

 

Also, something worthy to note is that Angron develops a small measure of respect for Lorgar after seeing him fight in Butcher's Nails.

[Brother Ambroz]

For those of you thinking Lorgar is a weak, pathetic little pipsqueak, you need to read Aurelian.

[Lepaca]

Pre-Heresy: Angron would have been the victor. No doubt.

 

Post-Heresy: Well, Lorgar did defeat Ann'grath the Unbound, was able to whoop daemon-possessed Fulgrim and his unleashed psychic powers seem to be more or less on par with Magnus so I'd definately vote for him.

 

 

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I wonder if maybe Lorgar is the most powerful of all the Primarchs? He was afterall the first (and real) chosen of the entire pantheon who embraced Chaos willingly. While Horus was undoubtedly also immensly powerful he was no true believer and might have "only" been a tool. Plus the Gods allowed Horus to die while they made sure that Lorgar ascended to daemonhood.

[Sinners Red]

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I wonder if maybe Lorgar is the most powerful of all the Primarchs? He was afterall the first (and real) chosen of the entire pantheon who embraced Chaos willingly. While Horus was undoubtedly also immensly powerful he was no true believer and might have "only" been a tool. Plus the Gods allowed Horus to die while they made sure that Lorgar ascended to daemonhood.

 

 

An interesting theory. Though my first argument against it would simply be 'that's dumb' -therefore rendering invalid.

 

The more I also think about it, the more it seems like a possibility, and thanks for bringing that point up.

 

I wouldn't say the most powerful (as in well rounded in martial skill, intelligence, charisma, tactics and strategy, subterfuge) of all primarchs. Of the ones that turned? It seems increasingly likely.

As far as all go, that would be a hard nut to crack. First off, we don't (and probably never will) know about the 2nd and the 11th. Second, we don't (and probably never will) know what happened to The Russ, The Khan, The Raven, The Lion, and Vulkan. Though I can at this time offer no one superior to him than the Russ, at this time.

 

My mind is weeping with new perceptions of the universe.

[Urauloth]

Is Ann'grath really all he's cracked up to be? He seems to get beaten up a lot. Fair enough to lose a battle with a primarch, but he gets banished by an inquisitor on Vraks and doesn't even really do much there beforehand.

[Dammeron]

There are suggestions, though few outright examples (barring his murder of Corax, defeat of an Eldar Avatar and beating daemon-possessed Fulgrim without breaking a sweat whilst also defying Horus, who was attempting to physically hold him back at the time), that post-conversion Lorgar is a physical powerhouse, as well as a mental and psychic one. Formerly considered physically weak amongst the Primarchs, it now seems he is potentially one of the most potent. Considering that Angron only has one Chaos God behind him and Lorgar has all of them, and that he is simply far more versatile than Angron, I think it could be potentially be heavily swayed in his favour if the two ever came to blows. I have no doubt that Angron is more ferocious and skilled in close quarters than Lorgar is, but I think that the myriad favours and blessings Lorgar functions under would potentially sway the battle.

 

That said, Lorgar has been sealed away within the heart of Sicarius since shortly after the Heresy. Who even knows what form he takes or how he manifests these days?

 

Personally, I like to think that he has transcended the constraints of physical form altogether, and is now a thing of pure Chaos; a living, conscious gateway into the infernal paradise of the Warp; a conduit of raw divinity. But that's just me :D

[RapatoR]

To supply in A D-Bs absence: Lorgar in TFH was at its lowest. Current Lorgar is a beast.

Also there is no point in raking of primarchs (except Horus) as they are equal. Who wins just depend on circumstances and probably, chance.

 

By the way, I think that chaos primarchs chilling in EoT and doing nothing is thing of the past. Look at fluff in current chaos dex or (sigh) GK codex.

[Brother Ambroz]

Sinner's Red - Why would Russ be "superior" to Lorgar?

 

Ann'grath is still all he's cracked up to be. The battle with the Inqusitor was more for storytelling (because the good guys have to win) than anything else I think.

 

Dammeron - I think they (the authors) have him locked up in there precisely because he is too powerful now.

 

RapatoR - ShHHH!!! The GK codex doesn't count as real fluff!

[Kol Saresk]

Post-Heresy: Well, Lorgar did defeat Ann'grath the Unbound, was able to whoop daemon-possessed Fulgrim and his unleashed psychic powers seem to be more or less on par with Magnus so I'd definately vote for him.

Ann'grath was pre-Heresy, not post.

 

Also, yes he is all he is cracked up to be. IIRC, there were more than a few deaths paid in banishing him.

[Lepaca]

Post-Heresy: Well, Lorgar did defeat Ann'grath the Unbound, was able to whoop daemon-possessed Fulgrim and his unleashed psychic powers seem to be more or less on par with Magnus so I'd definately vote for him.

Ann'grath was pre-Heresy, not post.

 

 

Whoopsie you're right of course. It was after he had begun opening up to the Chaos Gods and began increasing in strength though. :)

[Sinners Red]

Sinner's Red - Why would Russ be "superior" to Lorgar?

 

 

Though I can at this time offer no one superior to him than the Russ, at this time.

 

It seems that my faulty sentence structure has betrayed my intended message. I can't really support my own argument in the first place, and I thought at the time of posting I had made that clear. But clearly I have not. So I'll try it again.

 

"Though I can at this time offer no one superior to him than the Russ, but that's not based on fact."

 

At this point I have to agree with RapatoR though.

Also there is no point in raking of primarchs (except Horus) as they are equal. Who wins just depend on circumstances and probably, chance.

 

I concede any point I was trying to make, intentional or otherwise, I don't want this to devolve into one of those "Primarch X was better than Y" endless arguments. For some reason in my mind at the time of posting, Leman Russ seemed better than Lorgar. Maybe I think he's cooler? I dunno. He's just he one that popped in my head as "yeah, that guy".

 

Edit: But yes overall it does seem that Lorgar is now a much stronger Primarch than was originally let on, and could probably be no longer considered 'weakest'

[Kol Saresk]

I think the ranking system is purely for fanboy reasons, no more no less. Example, look at the Lion and Curze. First time they fought, Curze slashed the Lion's throat, but a DA snuck up from behind and put a sword through his back. The second round, the Lion returns the favor and puts Curze in a coma. Now, we could argue well the Lion was better anyways. But if it wasn't for that Legionnaire, the Lion most likely have died in the first fight or had a similar condition to Curze after the second fight. It shows perfectly that characters naturally wax and wane in strength. Lorgar is another example. He beat Ann'grath to a pulp but had his tail whipped by Corax.

 

Ranking the Primarchs, heck any character really, is a big no-no in my book simply because human beings, and by extension post-human beings, are simply too random to be solidly classified like that.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Very true, I used to be a boxer and I can certainly say that I was once the last and then the first, but no matter what tbe odds were or how conditioned I was a good punch of even a lesser trained opponent would send me sideways, I just think people are too eagre to defend their primarchs, if angron lost a fight to any other primarch, say magnus for example, I wouldn't lose respect for angron because I know it would be in his charatcer to never give up until hed evened the odds then bested them. Same as all other primarchs would.

[Rain]

It never happened but as has been stated he was beaten by Corax and Corax was basically resigned to be killed by Angron before he was rescued. It's at the end of Raven's Flight, after Corax kills a whole bunch of Iron Warriors, he sees Angron bearing down on him and knows he can't win, so basically just decides that he had a good run, then he's rescued. I don't remember how exactly the rescue happens as I haven't listened to Raven's Flight in a while, but given that he beat Lorgar and wasn't even considering the idea of beating Angron, I'd say ole Choppy would get the best of the encounter.

[Trevak Dal]

I doubt it. Angron would probably have murderised him. Lorgar isn't exactly the hardest nail in the box when it comes to the primarch brotherhood - I'm basing that off of what I remember from The First Heretic.

 

Yeah, he's the screechy wuss of the group. I didn't like Guilliman until I realized how much I hated Lorgar for being such a whiny little :D:. He isn't fit to be a primarch: the Emperor should have taken one look at him and said "Malcador, we got another one we need to 'unremember'"

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Or at least done a bit of a thorough examination of the old priests who had raised him, because letting a bunch of priests raise kids has proven such a good idea throughout history.

[Lepaca]

Or at least done a bit of a thorough examination of the old priests who had raised him, because letting a bunch of priests raise kids has proven such a good idea throughout history.

 

Warning: Child molestation may cause you to become the Chosen of the Dark Gods! :)

 

Well, that has a certain... slaaneshi vibe to it.

 

 

Just for clarification (it's been like 3 years since I read First Heretic): Doesn't Lorgar get beaten by Corax because at that point he has not yet found the determination to murder his own brothers?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I like Corax as a fighter, I think he would of had a good chacne to do some dammage to Angron, dont get me wrong I sitll think the odds were favoured for old Angron, but I dont think Corax would of been scared to get stuck in properly. well at least until he was beaten to a pulp.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Just for clarification (it's been like 3 years since I read First Heretic): Doesn't Lorgar get beaten by Corax because at that point he has not yet found the determination to murder his own brothers?

 

That's one interpretation. Another is that Lorgar remembered how good Corax was in the sparring circle and succumbed to self-doubt, which undermined his faith. A harsh lesson, but one that was later useful when facing down daemon-Fulgrim.

[Kol Saresk]

Just for clarification (it's been like 3 years since I read First Heretic): Doesn't Lorgar get beaten by Corax because at that point he has not yet found the determination to murder his own brothers?

Yes. This was pointed out in my first post. He could fight Ann'grath 50 years before the Heresy simply because a.)his life was at risk and b.)he didn't know Ann'grath. When it came to Istvaan V, the majority of Word Bearers hesitated because up until that point, the Heresy had only been theory. It was like one of those "Whoa, we're really going to do this." moments. Meanwhile, Primarchs like Angron and Curze, as well as their Legions, weren't really going to bat eyes about it. Not because they are cool or badass or any other fanboy reason, but because one had cybernetic implants that made him so angry it was the only way he could dream and the other had his moment of pause when he pummeled Dorn to a pulp and destroyed his own homeworld, and both had raised Legions of murderers, albeit some with martial pride in the case of the World Eaters.

 

Virtually every Space Marine, except for maybe three Legions, wemt through that pause. Some, that moment was short enough for them to go "Oh well."(Corax, Horus, Mortarion, etc) Others, it was long enough to get them (almost)killed.