BA Post-CSM Codex

[Zhukov]

Choosing a Priest or not isn't only a matter of 'being worth it'. He's worth it from a math point of view really quickly. Often the choice is between taking a priest or being able to field an extra unit...

 

Just make lists with priests and make lists while ignoring that you can take them. Then see for yourself which list you think is stronger.

[Roma]

Well, priests were nerfed this edition.

 

No more initiative bonus.

Feel no pain nerf/buff. Buff however is situational on 1 wound models.

 

I feel he is no longer worth it, and wont really miss him. You have to group units together to get the most out of him (limiting your mobility).

He isnt too hard to kill. Count his points with chalice and jet pack, then consider to just add more marines (always a good way to add survivability).

 

What i am saying is their loss isnt really a nerf so dont let it put you off.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Well, priests were nerfed this edition.

 

No more initiative bonus.

Feel no pain nerf/buff. Buff however is situational on 1 wound models.

 

I feel he is no longer worth it, and wont really miss him. You have to group units together to get the most out of him (limiting your mobility).

He isnt too hard to kill. Count his points with chalice and jet pack, then consider to just add more marines (always a good way to add survivability).

 

What i am saying is their loss isnt really a nerf so dont let it put you off.

 

I'm sorry mate, but I'm think besides the part about initiative loss, your whole post has just catapulted itself into the top 3 of the this year's 'Wrong statements' section - on all three places. :) I don't mean to insult you in any way, but I'm afraid you're not getting the big picture.

 

The buff FnP provides is not situational on 1 wound models, it's situational on all our models. If the weapon that caused the wound inflicts instant death, no FnP. Against anything else, FnP. That's a buff in my book, and a big one on top of that. Last edition, powerweapons and plasma were our bane, now we will always have something to hold against these type of attacks. A 5+ save is better than no save.

 

You always had to group units together to benefit from the Blood Chalice, that's nothing new. And it doesn't limit our mobility in the slightest, unless your are footslogging the priest and expect him to catch up with your jumpers. :)

 

He's harder to kill than last edition, that's for sure. Decline challenges and keep him in the back, that should keep him alive. Also, the radius of the chalice might reach other units that are behind your squads.

 

75 points for the priest and a jumppack is not much when you consider the buffs he gives to all units in 6"(remember that only one model has to be in that radius for the whole unit to benefit from the chalice). It gives you confidence on the battlefield, because with a Priest, your assault squads will not die as easily as other marines. They don't charge as other marines. With a Priest, we gain a big advantage over our opponent's forces, and it's true to the fluff as well. The synergy this unit choice provides is exceptional, and it's a true backbone of our army, after Tacs/RAS.

 

Or, instead of investing into a priest, you could buy 5 more models. In one unit or spreaded out over the army. Which will probably be dead after one round of shooting and do nothing to support other units. Make your choice. ;)

 

 

 

Snorri

[J-rich54]

I have to agree with snorri on this one!

 

Last week my CSM opponent flamed my RAS with this :D S6 AP3 heldrake's flamer and he succeded 9 wounds ( I had a really bad formation at this moment....it was after a CC) but I did 5 FnP roll out of the 9 I had to take

 

Priest are rarely not worth their points in all my game I always field one and I am never disappointed

[Ushtarador]

Also, if you slap a power-axe on the priest, you got yourself an additional 4 attacks on the charge with ignore all armor, hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ against most things.. pretty damn neat.

[Roma]

5 marines vs 5+ save on 20 (unless of course you croup 3 or more units together, Normally a bad idea). 5 marines are an extra scoring unit. Also the aforementioned 20 marines can go their seperate ways if needed rather than staying as a blob. Yes they die fast, but i think the priest dies even easier.

[SamaNagol]

The truth is the Priest is less value for 50 pts than he was.

 

Covering a larger mass of models highlights this; you will see a lower return on a 5+ than a 4+ even with saves on Power Weapons and Plasma. The loss of +1 I on the charge really hurt Assault Marines.

 

Adding additional costs of Jump Pack or Bike and a Power Weapon just compound this lack of value. And they weren't under-costed in the first place anyway.

 

You can very reasonably argue they still have a purpose, and you would be right! But they are nowhere near an essential must have OP unit.

[the jeske]

Well, priests were nerfed this edition.

saving plasma and power weapon hits , when armies stoped being made out of 5-6 models squads was a priest nerf ?

 

but i think the priest dies even easier.

for him to die , your opponent has to kill the squad sgt and the libby , if he is doing this in a single turn of shoting or melee , then the speed of priests death is no longer a problem .

[Brother Maikel]

Well, priests were nerfed this edition.

saving plasma and power weapon hits , when armies stoped being made out of 5-6 models squads was a priest nerf ?

It reduced the number of unsaved wounds the enemy needs to force by 25% in exchange for reducing the effect of plasma, rending and power weapons by 33%.

As for unit size, that's only a minor factor: MSU BA in 5th usually didn't use priests anyways.

 

So basically, if your opponent is almost exclusively wielding plasma and/or power weapons then FNP got better. Against everyone else FNP either stayed the same or got worse.

 

Furthermore, the loss of +1 I from Furious Charge was a straight-up nerf. No way around that one.

 

but i think the priest dies even easier.

for him to die , your opponent has to kill the squad sgt and the libby , if he is doing this in a single turn of shoting or melee , then the speed of priests death is no longer a problem .

Against shooting the priest is sometimes more vulnerable. A flanking maneuver or bad consolidate roll can leave the priest exposed to enemy fire, and even 2+ LoS! only goes so far.

In melee, where the priest is now considered fully part of the unit he's attached to, the priest got a bit more survivable. Remember, you don't have to accept challenges... FNP/FC still works just fine with the priest "cowering" at the back of the unit.

 

Overall I've found that 90pts for one body, +1 S on the charge and new FNP isn't actually the greatest deal. I'll almost always take Corbulo for my backfield units (2+ new FNP is amazing, and his reroll has often been clutch), but my forward-pushing ASM have been going priestless and I haven't really noticed much difference.

 

Its possible that a biker priest tossed in with some attack bikes might be worth it... getting FNP vs MLs and Lascannons plus T5 2W bodies to save with FNP changes the math a bit... but I haven't tried it yet (since I have no biker priests and only recently got some attack bikes)

[knife&fork]

Its possible that a biker priest tossed in with some attack bikes might be worth it... getting FNP vs MLs and Lascannons plus T5 2W bodies to save with FNP changes the math a bit... but I haven't tried it yet (since I have no biker priests and only recently got some attack bikes)

 

Pure bike units are one thing but mixing characters on bikes with normal or jump infantry (or the reverse), as some have suggested, can be a liability because of the focus fire rules.

[SamaNagol]

Quantity of mundane shots has become more of a factor in 6th edition. A Priest with a 4+ FnP boost is vastly superior to one who offers a 5+ FnP in that situation. Plasma and Power Weapons? Generally one of those per squad anyway.

 

It's situational. Priests are WAY better when they are with Sanguinary Guard or Assault Terminators now than in 6th. I think they are worse now than they were in 5th when put with 10 man JP assault squads.

[Sinful eyes]

I will agree that the priest has gotten worse now than he was before, but IMO he is still awesome, and is what makes a BA charge something to be feared with regards to other MEQ armies. Particularly against SW and GK, where one has the same number of attacks when WE charge (+ overwatch) and the other has power weapons across the board, that +1 str and FNP (which we now get to use against GK!) is crucial in ensuring that we come out on top in assaults.

 

Other than that, I just think the fluff and rules for them are cool. I will generally do my best to ensure that I have 1 in my lists just because of that. ;)

[Chaplain Admetus]

Think of it this way... 3 saved assault marines means that mathematically, the priest has paid for himself. 4 if you run him with a jump pack (well, 4 and a limb...) Any more than that and its gravy. Not taking into account what he kills himself. The combined points value of the models he keeps alive with FnP will almost always outdo the points you paid for the priest in the first place.

[Zhukov]

Some say that going from 4+ to 5+ including plasma and power weapons is a nerf.... But is this so?

 

Is/was getting torrented down by bolters the problem? Or is/was getting killed by power weapons (GK/Daemons) and mass plasma (IG/Tau) the biggest problem?

 

Daemons and Grey Knights were arguably by far the worst matchups for Jumpers BA and Priests did little to help against these matchups.

 

So what's the problem then if it's not the priest? The rules changes of 6th. The rules don't favour assault, unless you hit really hard and have a more reliable way of assault. (fleet mostly). And yeah, overwatch makes it worse.

 

Other problem? The ASM profile is just a bad profile for assault units. Always has been the case, it's just a standard Marine profile, what did you expect? You want Priest to compensate for this? Then Priests need to give major buffs, but this will affect the balance of the whole book as the Priest can give these buffs to other units too. (Priests should arguably give Fleet to the unit it joins, this would help ASM a *lot*, but then you also get Terminator with fleet... )

 

Same for the +1 Inititiave which isn't there anymore btw: Good assault units shouldn't need this. "killzones" are back to an extent. If the +1 Initiative was still there then *good assault units* would again kill enough models to prevent certain models from hitting back. In other words: +1 initiative would most likely be overpowered on some units now.

 

 

TL;DR: Assault Marines suck, not Priests.

[SamaNagol]

They used to. I5 and S5 was a BIG buff for assault units. Now S5 is just.... meh

[Deschenus Maximus]

TL;DR: Assault Marines suck, not Priests.

 

I would agree with that in general, but we have to remember that for a Troops choice, they are pretty decent.

[Zhukov]

I would agree with that in general, but we have to remember that for a Troops choice, they are pretty decent.

Fair enough, I tend to state things a bit black and white sometimes (read: most of the time).

[CitadelArmyGuy]

They used to. I5 and S5 was a BIG buff for assault units. Now S5 is just.... meh

We lost I5, but we gained re-roll hits from Prescience.

 

Unfortunately, so did the premier shooting armies who really didn't need help, did they?

 

I still cannot fathom GW's choice of which codicies got access to which Disciplines. They claim to be a fluff-driven ruleset... but if that's true then...

• Why doesn't CSM get Divination? In how many cases in the fluff are there instances of fortune-telling and seeing into the future?
  
• Why did SW get access to Divination, or heck get access to any rulebook powers at all? (Orks didn't for fluff reasons...) Aren't they 'not traditional psykers' and only supposed to have innate Runic-Magic that controls the elements/beasts and that's it? From the fluff, Divination and Telekinesis makes no sense... Biomancy & Pyromancy are the only ones that fits their supposed 'Druid-theme.' (too bad didn't get Pyromancy)
  
• Why are Codex Space Marines missing Divination? It's a tragedy. I'm sure they got Pyromancy because of Salamanders, so then what about Blood Ravens for Divination!!? C'mon GW.
  
• Eldar should have had access to all Disciplines. Right now, the Master Psykers of the Universe only access TWO of FIVE disciplines. ugh...
  
• Grey Knights should have gotten Telepathy. Hello? Inquisitors? bah
  
• IG probably should not have gotten Biomancy, but this is a minor point compared to all the above
  

Now its not all whining and complaining. From the fluff standpoint, GW got Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Tyranids and Orks correct. And remember, I'm not talking game balance reasons. GW has time and again said they write rules for fun, and don't really consider game-balance until later. So all my points above (good or bad for balance) are still all correct for fluff reasons IMO.

[SamaNagol]

I5 + S5 + re-rolls to hit = I would spam Assault Marines like a boss.

 

/

 

When GW balance anything they do it using darts and a blindfold.

[redhorse]

WOW!! I just looked at this thread out of curiosity, I didn't expect to find people bashing priest's. Sure you can take an extra 5 dudesmen, but why??? The priest is a force multiplier, he makes your guys stronger and tougher. What's the point of taking an extra five dudes, when you could make your guys last longer and hit harder?? HA! That sounds a commercial for a performance enhancing supplement.

[Zynk Kaladin]

The priest benefits common BA strategy, not hinders it. Keeping assault marines in one concentrated area early in game (EDIT: with designs to strike one of your enemy's flanks HARD) is what makes a BA army viable and using proper formations to mitigate templates is always a good idea. If the situation calls for separating a squad from the main army, then it's not really a big deal. I can't pontificate enough on how much that 5+ save has protected my RAS from a wide variety of non-instant death, armor ignoring weapons. Heck, those FNP clutch saves have even protected me from small arms fire despite the nerf.

 

I just don't see how people can pass up S5 in a squad with possible rerolls(prescience), FNP 5+ for 20-30 concentrated RAS, and 4 WS5 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge with possible rerolls.

[Brother Maikel]

WOW!! I just looked at this thread out of curiosity, I didn't expect to find people bashing priest's. Sure you can take an extra 5 dudesmen, but why??? The priest is a force multiplier, he makes your guys stronger and tougher. What's the point of taking an extra five dudes, when you could make your guys last longer and hit harder?? HA! That sounds a commercial for a performance enhancing supplement.

 

 

The priest benefits common BA strategy, not hinders it. Keeping assault marines in one concentrated area early in game (EDIT: with designs to strike one of your enemy's flanks HARD) is what makes a BA army viable and using proper formations to mitigate templates is always a good idea. If the situation calls for separating a squad from the main army, then it's not really a big deal. I can't pontificate enough on how much that 5+ save has protected my RAS from a wide variety of non-instant death, armor ignoring weapons. Heck, those FNP clutch saves have even protected me from small arms fire despite the nerf.

 

I just don't see how people can pass up S5 in a squad with possible rerolls(prescience), FNP 5+ for 20-30 concentrated RAS, and 4 WS5 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge with possible rerolls.

 

 

Nobody is saying that priests are bad or that they hinder common BA strategy. All we're saying is that the cost/benefit analysis for Priests has changed since 5th edition. +1S on the Charge and 5+ FNP vs anything non-ID is fine, but that costs 75-90 pts. Perhaps those points might be better used on another Librarian for additional Prescience usages. Or on fleshing out an Assault squad to a full 10-members, or on adding a couple Attack Bikes to shore up your anti-tank. In my opinion priests went from an auto-include to a list-dependent thing. If I'm running a full-on Jumper BA army then I'll probably bring a priest or two, but for mech, Jumper-mech hybrid, or more shooty-focused BA lists a Priest isn't necessarily the best choice.

[NICS]

At first I also agreed that maybe I didn't need priests in 6th as the I5 on the charge was amazing in 5th. That was to me what made razorspam great. It didn't really matter that I had smaller squads as I went first and could dictate charges. Also I can remember a lot of people saying the priests were not needed once GK's came out due to their halberds and force weapons.

 

No one has mentioned what I think is now a massive strength the BA have in combat. Multiple characters in a unit in combat.

 

I run a hybrid list of assault marines and preds. I now run my priests with fists and my libby's with axes. Having me sergeant to accept challanges while the priest and Libby beat up on the squad and not be singled out like in 5th is a massive boost that is being over looked.

 

Only our dex and maybe wolves can do this and have the multiple characters be able to hold their own in combat. Sure guard and Crons can do it but their characters can't fight back it is a tactic they can use to prolong combat.

 

Having extra units can also help for overwatch. Breaking of the priest or the squad to adsorb the overwatch from flamers or something else shooty when you don't have many marines left is another situational boost that priests can provide. Don't get me wrong on this one either I'm not suggesting turn one break him off and run into flamers and just watch him die. Just pointing on that he now provides more tactical options to us now than he did in 5th and that we need to look at the bigger picture.

[DominicJ]

Flavour of the month?

 

We are Angels.

We Stormed Horus' battle barge no others will enter.

We stood in the gate, and let none pass.

We lived for the Emperor, we died for the Emperor

[knife&fork]

WOW!! I just looked at this thread out of curiosity, I didn't expect to find people bashing priest's. Sure you can take an extra 5 dudesmen, but why??? The priest is a force multiplier, he makes your guys stronger and tougher. What's the point of taking an extra five dudes, when you could make your guys last longer and hit harder?? HA! That sounds a commercial for a performance enhancing supplement.

 

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the people (like me) who don't like taking priests in 6th also dislike assault squads. I'm not interested in buffing them because I don't think they are good enough in the first place. The only great things I think we have in our troop slots is the black and angry stuff.

Scouts are not good, tacticals are better but expensive and very list dependent. So I'm not really super hot on spending another 50-100 points buffing them.

Allies can do a god job of covering the objective capping part anyway.

 

That means the priest will only be taken to buff more expensive elite or FA choices. If it's an elite choice then you are competing for the same slots as the units you want to buff. Often you are also dealing with units that are already 'good enough' or distraction/disruption units that are not worth the extra points or will see very little benefit from the priest. Taking a priest to give 10 sang guard FnP and FC is definitely worth it, but taking a priest to buff smaller units of terminators or bikers? In most cases I'll rather take the extra bodies (and guns!).