Transports and their viability

[Kraull the Rampager]

Not sure if Rhino's have really been spoken about in a competitive light yet. All I've personally seen is certain people bashing on them because they're not Razorbacks in a GK list.

 

I understand the following about them.

1. They can give up first blood

2. They are cheap and easy kill points

3. They have nearly no weapons and can cost up to something like 50% more just to be half a decent gunboat. (it is half decent)

4. 6th Ed has hurt vehicles as a whole minus fliers.

 

That being said. I still run rhino's in my NL's to make up points. Yes, I could add in a bunch of marines if I trimmed a bit of fat. But In the experiences I've had, I've kind of thought about the following (remember, I've never been to a tournament, I'm just tossing up ideas here)

 

1. Playing necrons, somehow they managed to survive, and protect over 1/2 my army, simply by blocking LoS - movable cover is still a thing for Rhino's. (It was sheer luck, but this game isn't math hammer, it's luck)

2. 1/3 of our games are played long ways and another 1/3 is split down the middle of the board on the diagonal. This means, potentially, a sh** load more movement for our boys foot sloggin it. I think any kind of gun-line is probably going to out-gun us and laugh at all our boys trying to leg it into 24" range. + the fact that most of our games are objective based (at least the missions I can remember, Crusade, Relic, Big guns), that's at least 3/6. Only things like bikes are going to be able to cover that kind of distance...but we can't make bikes troops. So don't whinge and moan about how we should be able too. Because we can't. We're not loyalists. Only other thing, is Rhino's.

3. THEY'RE CHEAP. IF YOU LOAD IT RIGHT, YOU DENY THAT DAMNED OVERWATCH!

That's right! For a mere 40pts, I now have moveable cover, that fires an extra bolter shot or two, that when my Night Lords gun a bulk of my enemy down, I charge in, and as my opponent tries to gather dice for overwatch, I point out my rhino is annoyingly hiding behind a building, within 6". Yep. No losing my beefed out sorcerer or Raptor Champion to a lucky shot in this game! No Sir! That Claw's rhino saw this happening and wanted you to know the kind of pain you'll be feeling by parking behind you. In all honesty, I think that, that little 5 point upgrade. Is the GREATEST upgrade we've got. Yeah, you heard me. It actually allows 5 man combat units a chance. Things like (God forbid), Warp Talons, which I do not use, getting off that lucky charge on a unit moving to that objective, can tear them to shreds, because a few rhino's are just sitting around.

 

Now, as I said, I'm not a tournament player. I've never played in an ultra competitive environment, and I've never seen (but heard stories of) things like 18 chimeras blown up in like, 2 turns. It may be the case that, that kind of AT might be taken in tournaments, but even moving an extra 6" guarenteed for at least one turn to get our boys closer to the enemy, or the objectives...I see that 40pts as worthwhile.

 

Note: I changed the title, from rhino's to transports. I know I haven't discussed anything else besides Rhino's. But that's because I've only used Rhino's. Land Raiders just seem like a slightly bigger 6" bubble of NO OVERWATCH FOR YOU. Agreed that they're pretty expensive for a jack-of-all trades, master of none..

[techsoldaten]

Yeah, I don't think people consider what else they can do besides move troops and shoot some bolters.

 

I use them to transport Noise Marines up the board, then they become mobile cover. Usually they are very effective mobile cover - no one wants to pop a Rhino when there are 30 shots waiting for you in the next turn. Turns it into a chess game.

[the jeske]

3 rhinos at 40pts [and I would like to see the army that lets rhinos get in to dirge caster range] its 120pts . thats a las pred or havocks , or bikers with melta . and range shouldnt be a problem because you should be rolling high on huron with infiltration with your luck.

 

by the way how do you block LoS from flyers they are so high up its practicly impossible , unless the rhinos are very far away and the marines are kneeling or crawling[not that I didnt see meq modeled like that in my life , but still] ?

[Kraull the Rampager]

1. I'm not a tournament player. I've said this. No need to be a total "C". Other people might kiss your feet, I think your arrogance is offensive.

2. That 120pts might be spent on something other than rhinos. But then your troops are hard pressed to get 24" in 2 turns to capture that objective.

3. I think fliers have better things to deal with than a bunch of rhino's. Like, other fliers. Or things that kill fliers. Sure, after those 4-5 things are gone, Fliers may be an issue for your troops. But until then (after which they're likely to be dead), I think Rhino's are a decent little protection for most standard units?

[spafe]

I've had success running a rhino or 2 like this, mainly as with 2 preds, a vindi, 2 dreds (yes they are dreds! not sodding brutes!), and a raider packed with termies. The enemy normally has more pressing things to worry about, and when they've lost their cargo which is now advancing, what would you rather shoot, a unit with 2 plasma +souped up champ, or its old truck with a combi bolter? Unit takes some hits, but then gets to charge un impedded by overwatch.

[dswanick]

1. I'm not a tournament player. I've said this. No need to be a total "C". Other people might kiss your feet, I think your arrogance is offensive.

2. That 120pts might be spent on something other than rhinos. But then your troops are hard pressed to get 24" in 2 turns to capture that objective.

3. I think fliers have better things to deal with than a bunch of rhino's. Like, other fliers. Or things that kill fliers. Sure, after those 4-5 things are gone, Fliers may be an issue for your troops. But until then (after which they're likely to be dead), I think Rhino's are a decent little protection for most standard units?

The Rhino rush is still alive and well in 6th, sort of. In any list of 1,500pts+ I'm fielding 2-3 Rhinos and 2 Razorbacks plus other targets. The Rhino can move 18" up-field in on movement phase, and with 4-5+ transports plus other target option my opponent has to choose which and how many he wants to try to kill. In the meantime my Troops are getting delivered in safety, twice as far as they could have gotten on foot, and then have a ready-made wall or difficult terrain when they disembark/get shot out of it.

[Brother Nihm]

I primarily use mine to block assaults or to give cover saves.

 

*shrug*

[Excessus]

I primarily use mine for a 1st-2nd turn movement boost, havoc launcher platform, LOS/assault blocker and late game(if they survive) extra movement/protection for squads...

 

...and for other stuff...

[spafe]

One way I was told to look at it was (a while ago) a marine is 15 points, a storm bolter is 2 bolter shots (so two marines) so thats 30 points. so for 5 points in change from something with 2 wounds and a 3+ save to something that has an armour value requiring signifcant firepower to remove. you gain the ability to move the rest of the squad, you gain soo much, for 5 points. Part of me since then has wanted to try a 'unit' of rhinos jsut as an armoured combat squad almost. so 150 points, 5 rhiinos, well thats a lot of bolter shots, chaos can add combi's for odd bit of proper fire power...

[Smurfalypse]

I find them a little helpful at times but they certainly are not great all around anymore. I usually use two in my 2k games and none if under that.

 

They do provide cover to your units.

They do get them across the board quicker (provided they do not die first)

They are fairly cheap.

 

However they do give up first blood like nobodies business.

Their "gunboat" status is not deserved, when you equip them with the weapons to be "half decent" the points cost quickly is not worth it.

The idea that they get your infantry into battle quicker is not really true unless you are looking to assault ASAP. Anything with a bolter is going to get within 24" and shoot you as it slowly walks to where it wants to be.

 

Overall I usually find them useless in most of the games I have played and in a couple they helped me out slightly. Just my experience with them in this edition for CSMs.

[King Willy]

I love my metal boxes, they get me where I'm going and then just cruise round being annoyances.

 

I've found more then a few ways to protect my rhinos, you know with cover and what not hehe.

Nothing brings a smile to my face like an enemy using three units of shooting to kill one or two tanks, then having his objectives taken.

 

Oh noes I lost first Blood, oh well, I have two objectives now hehe.

 

And a marine army ain't a marine army without there Rhinos.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Havok launchers, that's all I am going to say, especially against Dark eldar, especially with Warpflame Gargoyles (yes, soul blaze is mostly useless, but on rhinos with havok launchers it can't hurt.

[empchildrenbob]

Rhinos are fine in 6th. Its just important that you have other units to move up with them or ahead of them for target saturation. I didnt realise how great havoc launchers are until i starting tryin them out. They are IMO like twin linked heavy bolters that can potentialy get more hits or scatter and miss completely. THank goodnes they are twin linked! Its also good to note that havocs are good in nightfighting because they are 48 inches. This means that they can reach the full 36 during night fight and unless your opponent is all the way in the back of their deployment zone, you can searchlight any unit you want.

 

So i think the best rhino loadout is Dirge + Havocs = 52(?) points. Not bad for a transport that can fit multiple roles and to anyone thinking thats expensive and will get shot first. Thats why you bring other units, to take the heat of off the troops so you can move up and capture objectives. In kill points games you could just stay back behind cover and fire havocs all game while having your troops on footbut in KPs its really up to you.

 

i play death guard so the best unit loadout for me is 5 plague marines, 2 plasma, meltabomb in a rhino with dirgecaster. Thats 195 and if you add the havocs its 207. it can face any threat ( infantry, vehicles, and MCs thanks to poison weapons).

[techsoldaten]

3 rhinos at 40pts [and I would like to see the army that lets rhinos get in to dirge caster range] its 120pts . thats a las pred or havocks , or bikers with melta .

What is the points cost of 1 extra round of shooting? That's what a Rhino gives you.

 

A las pred is great, but it's 3 shots compared to 10 shots from a CSM squad. Big difference in many situations.

[Smurfalypse]

3 rhinos at 40pts [and I would like to see the army that lets rhinos get in to dirge caster range] its 120pts . thats a las pred or havocks , or bikers with melta .

What is the points cost of 1 extra round of shooting? That's what a Rhino gives you.

 

A las pred is great, but it's 3 shots compared to 10 shots from a CSM squad. Big difference in many situations.

 

Units cant fire from inside the Rhino (only two from the hatch) so not sure where your comparison is going.

 

I mean, it can move and you can get out and move six inches but that is hardly a good deal for 35pts. For the most part it will not gain you a round of shooting and not lose you a round of shooting. What it does do is allow you to race to an objective very quickly, the only real problem is how easy they are to bring down.

[dswanick]

3 rhinos at 40pts [and I would like to see the army that lets rhinos get in to dirge caster range] its 120pts . thats a las pred or havocks , or bikers with melta .

What is the points cost of 1 extra round of shooting? That's what a Rhino gives you.

 

A las pred is great, but it's 3 shots compared to 10 shots from a CSM squad. Big difference in many situations.

 

Units cant fire from inside the Rhino (only two from the hatch) so not sure where your comparison is going.

 

I mean, it can move and you can get out and move six inches but that is hardly a good deal for 35pts. For the most part it will not gain you a round of shooting and not lose you a round of shooting. What it does do is allow you to race to an objective very quickly, the only real problem is how easy they are to bring down.

Ummm,

Troops on foot : T1 Move 6" + Run d6" + T2 Move 6" = 12+d6" and shoot in 2 turns.

Troops in a Rhino : T1 Move 12" + Flat Out 6" + T2 Move 6" + Disembark 6" = 30" and shoot.

And even if you subscribe to the theory that a Rhino is "easier to bring down" you're still further ahead because Flat Out is a guaranteed 6" vs Running's d6".

[techsoldaten]

Units cant fire from inside the Rhino (only two from the hatch) so not sure where your comparison is going.

 

I mean, it can move and you can get out and move six inches but that is hardly a good deal for 35pts. For the most part it will not gain you a round of shooting and not lose you a round of shooting. What it does do is allow you to race to an objective very quickly, the only real problem is how easy they are to bring down.

Yeah, units can't fire from within a Rhino. What they can do is get them into range to get out and shoot, faster than they would on foot.

 

Rhinos let you move 12 inches, then 6 inches the next turn, then deploy your troops 6 inches in any direction. It's usually the difference between shooting in round two or round three in a game that lasts 6 rounds on average. Maybe the vehicle itself doesn't have much value, but it is making your troops potentially 16% more lethal by getting them there sooner.

 

I mean, what good is a CSM squad if they are 6 - 12 inches outside their maximum firing range? Points only mean something when you use the unit.

[the jeske]

Troops in a Rhino : T1 Move 12" + Flat Out 6" + T2 Move 6" + Disembark 6" = 30" and shoot.

so rhino mounted units have a shoting range of 54" and walking of only 36" ? that is considering one does not run huron . are you playing on 6x6 tables ?

[Moress]

Troops in a Rhino : T1 Move 12" + Flat Out 6" + T2 Move 6" + Disembark 6" = 30" and shoot.

so rhino mounted units have a shoting range of 54" and walking of only 36" ? that is considering one does not run huron . are you playing on 6x6 tables ?

 

How are you keeping your troops mobile then?

[techsoldaten]

Troops in a Rhino : T1 Move 12" + Flat Out 6" + T2 Move 6" + Disembark 6" = 30" and shoot.

so rhino mounted units have a shoting range of 54" and walking of only 36" ? that is considering one does not run huron . are you playing on 6x6 tables ?

Ha ha.

 

Seriously, the difference is not really the distance, it's the amount of time to get there.

[steve shields]

I'm a big fan of the metal boxes. I recently won a local tournament with an armor spam list. CSM allied with guard. i only had two rhinos, but i gave them havoc launchers and i was rather pleased with them. I used them to mostly as pill boxes for my Plague Marines, and in the objective based games turn two or three they would rush forward to get where they needed to go. The Havoc is a very powerful weapon for its points. it killed a few light vehicles, and dealt a lot of wounds to MEQ that had piled out of a transport or something similar. They worked really well for me, especially against foot sloggers who did not think there was going to be much armor. Since this is a transport thread and not just rhinos, allied chimeras are amazing. i had four of them, for a total of 6 transports, i always lost a few, but they did their jobs of protecting the preds, and dishing out a lot of shots (especially in the case of the chimeras)

[minionboy]

I personally run a pair of rhinos with Havoc Launchers. If it looks like I'll need to get to the objective quickly, then I'll be mounted, if not, then the rhino sits behind a wall or aegis defense line and fires S5 blasts across the board.

[Kraull the Rampager]

I've been taking them as movable cover more recently, I've had no complaints. Honestly, the only reason someone would shoot them is because they're the only actual vehicles in my army...but I hid them from sight most of those games, so I could use them as a strategic movement towards the end..

 

I actually had a player tell me "I don't know why I want to kill it, there's so much more stuff easier killed, and more tactical...I just...want too." This coming from a good player who knows our codex (playing CSM himself)

 

To me, they're so worthwhile. Rhino's are still pretty good.

[Smurfalypse]

3 rhinos at 40pts [and I would like to see the army that lets rhinos get in to dirge caster range] its 120pts . thats a las pred or havocks , or bikers with melta .

What is the points cost of 1 extra round of shooting? That's what a Rhino gives you.

 

A las pred is great, but it's 3 shots compared to 10 shots from a CSM squad. Big difference in many situations.

 

Units cant fire from inside the Rhino (only two from the hatch) so not sure where your comparison is going.

 

I mean, it can move and you can get out and move six inches but that is hardly a good deal for 35pts. For the most part it will not gain you a round of shooting and not lose you a round of shooting. What it does do is allow you to race to an objective very quickly, the only real problem is how easy they are to bring down.

Ummm,

Troops on foot : T1 Move 6" + Run d6" + T2 Move 6" = 12+d6" and shoot in 2 turns.

Troops in a Rhino : T1 Move 12" + Flat Out 6" + T2 Move 6" + Disembark 6" = 30" and shoot.

And even if you subscribe to the theory that a Rhino is "easier to bring down" you're still further ahead because Flat Out is a guaranteed 6" vs Running's d6".

 

If you go first sure, if you go second those Rhinos are going to be the priority and more than likely not live through the turn.

 

At best you gain one round of shooting, at worst you lose 35pts for nothing (possibly more if you lose men in the explosion). You just do not gain a whole lot to be honest.

[dswanick]

If you go first sure, if you go second

Because, heaven forbid, you should hide behind a LoS blocking piece of terrain if you're going second...

those Rhinos are going to be the priority and more than likely not live through the turn.

Two words - "target" and "saturation". One rhino is a dead rhino. Four Rhinos, two Predators, a Land Raider, and a Dreadnought is a quandry.