Drudge Dreadnought Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I keep seeing these threads about rhinos pop up, and I am bewildered that the discussion always focuses around things like kill points and mobility. Yes, those are important factors. But there is a much more important issue that everyone seems to ignore: Low AP weapons. 6th Ed changed how vehicles work, and generally made cover worse. Our new codex has also changed up many things. But one thing that has not been changed by either is that we are still MeQs, and MeQ infantry is horrifically inefficient against armies with low AP firepower (and those armies are more common now, if anything.) If you go up against a list with lots of low AP as footslogging MeQs, you will get hard countered. It was true last edition, and it hasn't changed now. In fact, the cover nerfs probably mean we'll get butchered worse (the FNP changes are not enough to compensate.) You take rhinos to buy your infantry some safety from nasty low AP anti infantry weaponry while you get yourself into position (or melee). Fighting low AP lists is still tough, and many low AP weapons will also be able to hurt light armor. But it's still going to mean you are merely getting soft countered by these sorts of lists instead of hard countered. Of course you have to make sacrifices to get this trade off. Points spent on rhinos mean less other units, and greater chance at giving up first blood. But in most lists, that will be acceptable to not auto-lose against low AP heavy opponents. There are some exceptions, like if your list is heavy on armor, or has it's core composed of units that are not footslogging infantry (bikes, terminators, etc.) If you want a flexible all comers list, you still need rhinos. Maybe not as many as before, and maybe not used the same way, but you still need them or you're just opening yourself up to getting hard countered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 What about Storm Eagles? I just realized that they were an option for us yesterday when someone posted it on this board. I think that although they are quite pricey they could be a real addition for a lot of army lists. I mean they are a flying assault transport that can hold 10 terminators and is armed with a MM and possibly 2 TL-LCs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 What about Storm Eagles? I just realized that they were an option for us yesterday when someone posted it on this board. What's a Storm Eagle ? If it's FW, it's out of question ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 What about Storm Eagles? I just realized that they were an option for us yesterday when someone posted it on this board. What's a Storm Eagle ? If it's FW, it's out of question ! It is indeed FW but just because it is out of the question for YOU doesn't mean that it is out of the question for everyone else. These are the rules. (pdf document) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 It does suffer from the same problem as the Contemptor, in that the loyalist one is better/has more options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 It does suffer from the same problem as the Contemptor, in that the loyalist one is better/has more options. You mean it shares the same problems as all chaos things? :cuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Rhinos win games, no question. If they aren't winning games for you, you're doing it wrong. Plague Marine armies get an exception. That is to say, the humble rhino won't personally win a game, but the wide variety of things it can do ensures victory nearly every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 If you go first sure, if you go second Because, heaven forbid, you should hide behind a LoS blocking piece of terrain if you're going second... those Rhinos are going to be the priority and more than likely not live through the turn. Two words - "target" and "saturation". One rhino is a dead rhino. Four Rhinos, two Predators, a Land Raider, and a Dreadnought is a quandry. I have not seen very much terrain that I can fully hide a Rhino behind where it straight up blocks line of site. Both in the tourny scene and casual game play (though I have seen a few in casual, but still very few pieces is usually big enough to fully block true line of site). You can saturate with all that extra stuff you want, any decent player is going to kill the Rhinos first to force your troops to walk. So going to have to disagree on how good you think a Rhino is. I think they are okay. Decent in a certain situation, poor in certain situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve shields Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 If what you say is true, how is it a bad thing that they shot your rhino vice a predator/vindicator or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You can saturate with all that extra stuff you want, any decent player is going to kill the Rhinos first to force your troops to walk. This discussion stops being useful when we get to the point of debating what a decent player would do. There are so many factors that go into a game of 40k, it's nearly impossible to say what someone would do against Rhinos. Sure, if you have 2 squads with missile launchers, they are going to go after the Rhinos with all other things being equal. But when you also bring in a land raider, or a daemon prince, or a fiend, or a defiler, or anything else that is really going to tear up an opponent - target priority for a decent player changes dramatically. Those missiles could be better used somewhere else, giving you opportunities to put the Rhinos to work elsewhere. A better way to look at the effectiveness of Rhinos is in terms of strategy, and what they are going to accomplish during a game. I typically run 4 Rhinos with squads of Noise Marines, they are safe in most games up until around turn 3. They advance my troops until then, before switching to a role where they act as mobile cover that can pop smoke when I need it. I don't mind someone shooting them up at that point, they are really just intervening obstacles at that point to force opponents to come at me in ways that are favorable to my approach. Not everyone is going to find value in this approach, the way I play the game is suited to big biker assaults, massed fire opportunities and deep striking AV. I can see how Rhinos would have a lot less value in a list that relies on heavy support, massed cultists, etc. There really is no answer to whether or not a Rhino is valuable based on points / list composition alone - it comes down to how you plan to use them. I mean, if you want to criticize them for being fragile, that's completely reasonable. But there are lots of fragile units in this Codex and singling them out for this fact alone unnecessarily diminishes the other things they bring to the table. If you demand a significant offensive use for Rhinos before thinking they are viable, here's an interesting idea for how to use them. Bring in 4 units of them with CSMs deployed outside the vehicles themselves, and keep them in the backfield where they don't play much of a role in the game the first few turns. Wait for a SM player to deep strike TH / SS terminators then bring up the Rhinos to tank shock them. Do this with 2 - 3 Rhinos and you are going to wipe out that unit a lot more effectively than massed fire / lascannons / pie plates ever would because the terminators don't get a save, and the Rhinos take up so much space there would be no place to put the terminators. If your opponent wants to waste shots going after the Rhinos before this can happen, great - it leaves your troops unmolested by heavy weapons while they march up the field, perfect for a footslogging army. This is exactly why we bring chaff to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 If what you say is true, how is it a bad thing that they shot your rhino vice a predator/vindicator or something? Troops score, Predator/Vindicators do not, you make them (Scoring infantry) walk if you have to. I (as most others) would always target out a transport over a Predator/Vindy/Walker, it is by far and away the higher priority and the damage that the others can deal is acceptable. You are however talking like it takes a boat load of firepower to bring down a Rhino, more than likely a single unit will have a decent chance of ending it so it is not like someone needs to focus their entire turn of shooting at a couple of AV11 transports. If you have four, my entire first turn would be to remove all four of those on turn one (and it would likely happen), if you have six my entire first turn would be dedicated to removing those (and it would likely happen). I do not care about a Dreadnaught and its firepower that will kill maybe two marines a turn, Predator is in the same boat you might kill two marines with it a turn. These things just arent that scary to a footslogging MEQ army list. The Vindy is a bit scary but it is shorter range and will usually not get off a center mass shot until turn two (my experience with and against them at least). Like I said, we arent going to change each others minds. I use a few in 2k point games, but they can easily be dumped and I would not be missing anything special. I have used them a ton in sixth and they just do not offer a whole lot to an army. What Jeske is refering to is the fact that most competative CSM army lists are going to use Huron and make the infantry unit/s infiltrate or outflank so the Rhinos are useless in those kinds of lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You are however talking like it takes a boat load of firepower to bring down a Rhino, more than likely a single unit will have a decent chance of ending it so it is not like someone needs to focus their entire turn of shooting at a couple of AV11 transports. If you have four, my entire first turn would be to remove all four of those on turn one (and it would likely happen), if you have six my entire first turn would be dedicated to removing those (and it would likely happen). You can reliably take out 12(or 18) Hp from 24+ inches with AV11 in cover in only one turn? That's some shooting power you got there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 I said before that rhinos provide cheap searchlights which can be vital. Beyond that, I believe that it's the best means of bringing havoc launchers beyond the dakka predator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You are however talking like it takes a boat load of firepower to bring down a Rhino, more than likely a single unit will have a decent chance of ending it so it is not like someone needs to focus their entire turn of shooting at a couple of AV11 transports. If you have four, my entire first turn would be to remove all four of those on turn one (and it would likely happen), if you have six my entire first turn would be dedicated to removing those (and it would likely happen). You can reliably take out 12(or 18) Hp from 24+ inches with AV11 in cover in only one turn? That's some shooting power you got there... At 2k point, yes fairly easily to kill four Rhinos in one turn. Not sure why that is surprising. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You are however talking like it takes a boat load of firepower to bring down a Rhino, more than likely a single unit will have a decent chance of ending it so it is not like someone needs to focus their entire turn of shooting at a couple of AV11 transports. If you have four, my entire first turn would be to remove all four of those on turn one (and it would likely happen), if you have six my entire first turn would be dedicated to removing those (and it would likely happen). You can reliably take out 12(or 18) Hp from 24+ inches with AV11 in cover in only one turn? That's some shooting power you got there... At 2k point, yes fairly easily to kill four Rhinos in one turn. Not sure why that is surprising. . . I'll believe it when I see it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Personally I love foot slogging armies* and would prefer it if no one else ever took Rhinos anymore. It makes my game so much easier. *Not for me; for my opponents. I'll keep my boxes. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You are however talking like it takes a boat load of firepower to bring down a Rhino, more than likely a single unit will have a decent chance of ending it so it is not like someone needs to focus their entire turn of shooting at a couple of AV11 transports. If you have four, my entire first turn would be to remove all four of those on turn one (and it would likely happen), if you have six my entire first turn would be dedicated to removing those (and it would likely happen). You can reliably take out 12(or 18) Hp from 24+ inches with AV11 in cover in only one turn? That's some shooting power you got there... At 2k point, yes fairly easily to kill four Rhinos in one turn. Not sure why that is surprising. . . I'll believe it when I see it... lol you really think at 2k it is that hard to kill four Rhinos? I am not sure if you are just disagreeing to troll me or forserious. They are JUST Rhinos and very very easy to bring down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Dragons 3rd Company Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 In a recent 2 on 3 game (The Scouring) I played, I would have these observations: We got first blood because we popped a rhino that was bringing some CSM up to the 4 pt objective and also shielding 3 bikes from our fire. We did this in spite of having three rhinos of our own and going second. One teammate brought three rhinos on our side full of Grey Hunters. Two rhinos died but one survived the entire game. We used it late game (turn 5) to channel the foot slogging Chaos Lord of Nurgle away from a 3 point objective and into charge range of my oncoming librarian and tactical terminators (who assaulted him on our next turn). We did this simply by moving the instead of shooting so that it filled a gap between a wrecked rhino and the wall of the building. This made it so the Lord had to go around both Rhinos to be able to assault the squad covering that objective which is what moved him to sure charge range of the terminators. We have something we can bring to the table that I think does create target priority issues for our foes. We have battle cannons on defilers. These will kill MEQ in droves and do not need to move to get within 24" range. Enemies react very strongly to their presence. We also have ectofiends which, granted, have to move to get in range, but which the enemy usually really wants to kill before it gets in range, and this also seem to have a fear factor all out of proportion with their actual effectiveness. We can present the enemy with target priority issues when they have to choose between the incoming transport full of assault troops and the big gun baddies in our back line (or advancing with the transports if you prefer). They can shoot the transports, but at the cost of taking some rather intimidating MEQ/horde killing fire, and if they are all infantry, they will be taking that because unlike the LasPreds mentioned earlier in this thread, these template weapons are a huge threat to infantry. They also have to be aware, if they have anything armored, that they need to take out our anti-armor (and our big guns mentioned above can also take out a lot of armor) as a priority along with eliminating the weapons that can do the most damage to their scoring units... which are the template troop killers in our backfield. If they do that, we can disembark on T2 behind the rhinos for cover and then assault on T3. It should also not be overlooked that as CitadelArmyGuy argues, there is a possibility of creating a dilemma for the opponent where to deal with the incoming assault, they want to be concentrated, but to deal with the templates they want to be dispersed. Alternately, you could keep your rhinos in your backfield, under cover, and hope to use them for end game rushes at objectives. This depends on the mix of forces, mission, etc. Rhinos can work; they are not auto-fail. Finally, you have to consider the change in the meta being created by exactly this "Rhinos-suck Vehicles-suck Anything that is not a flyer or infantry-sucks" kind of mentality. I'm all for seeing that preached because it will cause people to start removing light vehicles or even most vehicles from lists. As that becomes normal, people will start to adapt their lists to optimize effectiveness against flyers and infantry, probably at the expense of their light tank killing capacity. (Haven't we seen countless discussions here about local meta? Don't we often see people's lists tweaked for better MEQ killing effectiveness because MEQ are "half the game"?) All of this means that eventually if you bring a light tank based list, you will be playing to the area where your opponent weakened their list. No army is a unit or even one unit. The army is a team and a team made of the best units is not always the best team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 You are however talking like it takes a boat load of firepower to bring down a Rhino, more than likely a single unit will have a decent chance of ending it so it is not like someone needs to focus their entire turn of shooting at a couple of AV11 transports. If you have four, my entire first turn would be to remove all four of those on turn one (and it would likely happen), if you have six my entire first turn would be dedicated to removing those (and it would likely happen). You can reliably take out 12(or 18) Hp from 24+ inches with AV11 in cover in only one turn? That's some shooting power you got there... At 2k point, yes fairly easily to kill four Rhinos in one turn. Not sure why that is surprising. . . I'll believe it when I see it... Yeah, that's the point when I stopped reading anything Smurf was typing. "Yeah, I lost the game because I focus-fired on the Rhinos but I killed them all turn 1..." -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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