John_f Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hello brothers! I was wondering if you could help me find information about the fallen. I dont know much about Dark Angel fluff, only that there was a split in the chapter after the arrival of the emperor on Caliban. I want to proxy my chaos army as fallen but I need to know if they are even dedicqted to chaos? Some specifc god? Why was there a split in the chapter? Any information I can get about the fallen would be appretiated :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Well it appears from the current books that the DA on Caliban felt abandoned and used. So they turn from the Emperor. Luther appears to have been corrupted by Chaos but from the looks of things it was more Chaos undivided compared to a lone Chaos God currently. So some of them are with Chaos and some were just fed up with the Imperial way. We also know in some of the books for more current time line some of the Fallen have turned to specific gods (The Eye of Terror book shows this.) So you could have a Fallen army that has aspects one - more and no aspects of the Chaos Gods... It really comes down to how you want to do them as it seems that any way can be fluffy acceptable. =D Meaning I haven't seen evidence where you couldn't have a CHAOSY Fallen army or even a Fallen but not Chaosy army. The not real chaosy could be before the events of the destruction or even after really but most fluff points that it doesn't appear to happen all that often in the current timeline(40k not 30k) for a wholly non-chaosy fallen army. I hope that was helpful and not very confusing ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Pssst, All DA are Fallen, most of them just don't know it yet! :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronotonic Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fallen_angels is where you want to start goes over the few books in the hh series..as well as a bit of other things the gods and such... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Pssst, All DA are Fallen, most of them just don't know it yet! ;) You mean like ... the way we fall tired and exhausted in our bunk beds after a long campaign of bringing your misdeeds to justice? Yeah, we all fall. :P Ok, justice is a bit too strong, let's go with disproportional punishment. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhg033 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 someone is asking questions about the fallen - grab him! ....anyway.... the horus heresy books are ok, worth a read at least for some background i'd 2nd the opinion that DA fallen, at the time of the fall didnt follow a given god and many may not since. the split was more resentment that (predominantly the pre Johnson, earth source DA) the DA left on caliban were being shunned by Johnson. this also included librarians as Johnson didnt trust their power. where chaos gets involved is the suggestion that the resentment was kindled by the gods etc. might be getting confused here too but think that one of thelibbys was exposed to a daemon as well and could feel it in himself, corrupting him. cant remember what, if any baring this had. previous versions of DA fluff had luther as being enhanced by the chaos gods in the final battle, need to re-read the HH books though to see if this is the case currently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 The Lion didn't distrust Librarians. He specifically ordered the breaking of the Nikean Edict so that the Librarians would use their full power against the "niphila" attacking his ship and he himself used his own psychic ability to destroy a greater demon seemingly by channeling a psychic force attack through what appeared to be a non-force sword. The Lion may have distrusted one specific Librarian due to his presence/part during an attempted assassination of the Emperor (and by proximity, the Lion himself, IIRC), then again he may not have distrusted him at all and sent him to Caliban as a hinky spy that didn't even know he was a spy. Also, the split on Caliban was being fostered by Calibanites, not Terrans. There's plenty of blame to go around to all groups in that particular civil war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 The Lion didn't distrust Librarians. He specifically ordered the breaking of the Nikean Edict so that the Librarians would use their full power against the "niphila" attacking his ship and he himself used his own psychic ability to destroy a greater demon seemingly by channeling a psychic force attack through what appeared to be a non-force sword. It's often said that the Lion has trouble reading people; I often suspect the reverse may be true as well. The primarch was known for being taciturn and temperamental - what's to say this just isn't a matter of people misreading his expressions? (As example of this, what if the Lion didn't know to suspect Luther at all? What if he exiled Luther along with the rest with the assumption that the more socially-wise Luther would be able to ferret out his enemies among the suspect traitors and new recruits? What if Luther only assumed he was condemned, vice the Lion suspecting the truth?) (On the flip side, I'm reluctant to give the authors of Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels too much credit - the former gave us an utterly bland presentation of old Caliban, whereas the latter made it very clear in both his writing and his subsequent commentary that he didn't care much for his work at all. "Oh, Astellan was supposed to be a terran? Heh, I assumed he was a Calibanite the whole time I was writing. Oh well." However, it could be an interesting way to expand things.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 So fallen are basically DA rebels from the original caliban that got initiated into the DA legion and then developed a beef with the leadership, but heres the rub... Fallen are space marines witha gene seed. So while they are long lived they aint eldar. Meaning they should really all be dead at this point. Now i understand that these guys, could be given long life by chaos, blah blah blah... But it would be alot more interesting if they had developed some understanding about harvesting and reusing their own gene seeds to start an army anew. This seems much more valuble to protect against than an entire chapter collecting rumors and trying to hunt down one or two rebel power armor guys. The whole "oh no. there is one fallen on planet x. we must capture and torture him so cant reveal our dark secret bedwetting shame." seems kinda trite to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Well, all/a portion of the Fallen were scooped up in the Chaos storm that happened as Caliban was destroyed/helped destroy Caliban. They aren't all spit out, presumably some still exist in the Warp to be chucked out at random, so that's why they aren't all dead. Of these, some probably do bow down to one/some/all of the Chaos gods, some are not bound by Chaos but turned against the Imperium, some probably consider themselves true loyalists and so hate what the Imperium has become, and some of them may actually have been loyalist Dark Angels who got swept into the storm and have no beef with the modern DA at all but are hunted as Fallen because how the heck could you really trust them... As far as gene seed fun and games, we do know that at least once DA gene seed has been raided by the Fallen (led by Cypher himself), and it seems to have happened more than that, so I would definitely suspect that somewhere somehow that gene seed, while the loss of it being damaging to the Dark Angels in its own right, may actually be used to create new Dark Angels based Marines (I don't call them Fallen because I think that would entirely depend on exactly how one defines a Fallen - if they don't actually change from one side to another, are they truly Fallen, or did they start out corrupted) that very much could be dangerous to the Unforgiven. I do agree that the "we have to just keep Hunting these guys down" seems like a pretty lame super-secret, which is why I have posited before that there is something else (such as the Dark Angels are already heretics to the Imperium, but not traitors to humankind, because they are following some direction from the Watchers in the Dark - which are xenos according to the HH books - to help defeat Chaos) being concealed by that somewhat superficial secret. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Polythemus, the Fallen were scattered through time and space so their elapsed lifespan is extremely variable. lhg033, the audio drama Grey Angel gives a few hints as to how touched by Chaos Luther was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Paraphrase: "And lo the warp storm did decend and scatter both fallen and faithful throughout TIME AND SPACE"* Fallen typically wont be found in large groups... They are more fit to be allies to a (Traitor?) Guard force. Generally Undivided with marks on Champions... *Too much monty python last night... Edit: D'OH... Ninja'd... Twice... lhg033, the audio drama Grey Angel gives a few hints as to how touched by Chaos Luther was. And "Grey Angel" and "Malediction" BOTH give strong clues as to what side Cypher leans towards... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Damn, I really hate audio-dramas. Hopefully they will text-format them soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Paraphrase: "And lo the warp storm did decend and scatter both fallen and faithful throughout TIME AND SPACE"* Hehe! <_< I did consider writing it as "the Fallen were scattered through time and space Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Time is also presumed to run in both directions.... past included (hey, it is Chaos and the warp...) Shaq really could be...... <_< Well, maybe a Salamander.. Alexander? Caeser? Goliath? Lovecraft? Sigmar? Huss? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I called Cypher making a heel face turn first. :D I hope we derive bonuses from craven cowardice and opportunism instead of stubbornness and grit to make up for our inevitable turn to bigoted racist persecutors of the poor little Fallen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Awesome! Thank you so much for your input guys! It seems that running a nurgle themed warband of fallen, using the upcomming dark angel codex, might not be so far fetched :D I just have to make up a good background story about these guys being sucked up by that warp storn and delivered to warm, sticky bossom of father nurgle :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 ok time and space shenanigans i get. really i do. its just the descriptors on all the GW dark angels stuff, is always like: "Bearers of a terrible secret dark terrible guilty horrible secret shame, the dark angels! Did we mention they've got a secret? and that its dark? and that its terrible?" and then your in for a massive letdown cause the story behind it is there was a civil war within the chapter. ok thats not an ideal situation but it hardly bears the word space afforded to such platitudes. Really the back story as to why the dark angels need to hunt down and interrogate all these turncoats could be developed alot more, than the rather simplistic, "ive got a secret and im not telling". I guess thats all i'm saying. for instance. plot idea 1 - fallen harvest their own geneseed and are building armies to threaten humanity. now thats a threat that could be expounded a bit. plot idea 2 - fallen prosses ancient technological wizardry and are capabilty of using eldar webways to assault earth.. excuse me terra. plot idea 3 - Such was his comptempt for his friends leading a rebeillion, Lion el johnson called on any power availible to bring his foe to justice and was about to be possesed by some demonic force during their battle but before so doing luther actually killed him. Yet afterwards luther killing him awakens from his chaos induced trance and realizes what hes done. He feels a shame so terrible that to protect his friends good name he lies about it. and its a lie hes told so long he now knows nothing else. and all the fallen know, because the psychic echoes of the demon and the primarch echoed in al the chapters minds. now thats a secret! i could go on. the point is that the way the story is written right now is pretty banal and could be developed so much more. Stories of human shame work best when their is something stake for their being told. i mean whats at stake in a a universe where there is war constantly, and, at the peak of it, a chapter was torn in two. Ho hum. Needs some sprucing up. now im gonna freely admit that i don't buy or read any novels produced by GW, with the notion that a.) the only stuff thats official comes in the form of codecies and rule books b.) Pretty much all of their stories are derivative of stories from antiquity that people have forgotten/cant be bothered to read. the stuff that is official needs to be the back bone of story line, and for that reason its got to better than currently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3248951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Well it isn't really as plain as that you say. It really comes down to the DA keep it a secret because if it were let out that they had rebellion in their ranks like that it would cause their Legion to be scrutinized, labeled traitor or even targeted for exterminatus (They did just have a full on war with half of the legions astartes because of such reasons.) They keep it a secret now so they don't have that stuff happen still and don't die off as then their geneseed would be at least sealed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 But thats just it harley, they dont care if they die. Thats the whole space marine way. If they should get killed off they dont care, what they care about is their good name. They have an overdeveloped hubris on their own place in the hierarchy of man even more so than alot of other chapters. This is why i suggest that this is the aspect that should be played up. I just feel an entire chapter hunting down individuals, is not really enough to just be righting ancient wrongs. Theres gotta be more to it. I also think that the inquistion is probably already wise to this as its been going on for a while. And hey this is just one mans opinion. The opinion of a sad man who wants a new codex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I get ya, Poly. Sorry if a bit of the thread got jacked there, John_f. As we have all said pretty much, you can do most anything. So you using your CSM as Fallen for a DA army should be completely ok :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 I get ya, Poly. Sorry if a bit of the thread got jacked there, John_f. As we have all said pretty much, you can do most anything. So you using your CSM as Fallen for a DA army should be completely ok :blush: Its totally fine, its a very intressting discussion :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apahllo Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 This is why the DA are the coolest chapter, the fallen. All of the opinions and speculations about who and where the fallen are most likely true. After the fall of caliban, the remaining lutheranites were scattered through out time and space but one badass in particular is collecting gene seeds. this points to a hidden legion/chapter/warband of "enlightened" DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 I do agree that the "we have to just keep Hunting these guys down" seems like a pretty lame super-secret, which is why I have posited before that there is something else (such as the Dark Angels are already heretics to the Imperium, but not traitors to humankind, because they are following some direction from the Watchers in the Dark - which are xenos according to the HH books - to help defeat Chaos) being concealed by that somewhat superficial secret. I somewhat agree with this take. In fact I have been a long-term advocate of the view that the DAs are loyal to the Emperor but not the Imperium (I leave humankind out of it, because their actions have resulted in deaths of innocents on an number of occasions). The DAs have a personal "dialogue" with the Emperor (metaphorically speaking of course, a real conversation with the Emperor would be kind of one-sided ^_^) and they seek redemption in His eyes who's also the only other person that supposedly know about the Fall. That is before Ragnar Blackmane knew or indeed the Chaos dude from Dark Vengeance knew... or everyone and his aunt knew :) So the hunt of the Fallen is very important in that context, as it is the means through which DAs will achieve redemption in the eyes of the Emperor - the only entity they recognise as true authority. The whole stance is very egocentric as far as the DAs are concerned since they believe that their redemption is the greatest service they can offer to the Emperor. In the Call of the Lion (or was it the Angels of Darkenss - not sure) Astelan clashes with the Lion over strategy regarding whether the DAs should protect human population from Orks and suffer casualties in return, or sacrifice human population, retain their numbers and as a consequence encricle and utterly destroy the Orks. The Lion was advocating the latter (sacrifice humans, while retaining strength) while Astelan was for the former (protect humans with cost). So the perception that the DAs are worth more than humans or conversly that humans are ultimately expendable while Dark Angels are not, is deeply rooted in the DA psyche and advocated by the Lion himself. So it makes sense to me that the DAs are looking to be absolved in the eyes of the Emperor and the hell with the Imperium and the humans should a conflict of interest arise. Of course they are not actively anti-Imperium, they realise they should keep up appearences but that's only as long as they do not interfere with the task given to them by the Emperor (as they perceive it). As I said in the past I like my DAs really dark - redeeming features make them less interesting in my view - so I give them none... :) Or is there another deeper agenda that involves the Watchers? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 In fact I have been a long-term advocate of the view that the DAs are loyal to the Emperor but not the Imperium (I leave humankind out of it, because their actions have resulted in deaths of innocents on an number of occasions). The DAs have a personal "dialogue" with the Emperor (metaphorically speaking of course, a real conversation with the Emperor would be kind of one-sided :)) ........ Warning spoilers.....^_^ This is actively referred to in the short story The Lion in the book The Primarchs. At the height of the Heresy Jonson basically says that he doesn't trust any other Primarch. He even hints that whilst he believes Guilliman wouldn't betray humanity, he can't be sure he is still loyal to the Emperor....paranoia which is given credence, in Jonson's mind, by the fact that Guilliman summons the Blood Angels and Dark Angels to Ultramar and not Terra. It can be argued that Guilliman might be assuming that Terra is lost, but that together the Ultramarines, BA and DA could set up Sanguinius as a new Emperor based around the Ultramar sector, and hold out whilst the traior legions batter themselves against the Imperial Fists on Terra. This is the reason that Jonson dismisses Guilliman's summons, as he holds nobody higher than the Emperor. On a related note, did you know that there is a Canadian Oil refining company called Ultramar, whose previous name was Golden Eagle! Spooky! :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266703-question-about-the-fallen/#findComment-3249311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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