Advice against Tau

[techsoldaten]

This weekend, I have a rematch against a Tau player who I lost against last time we met. Looking to revamp my list in order to keep it from being a humiliating defeat and could use some advice.

 

The list I typically use is here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=263693&hl=

 

The changes I am planning are as follows:

 

- Dropping the Defiler and getting another Obliterator squad with the points.

- Dropping the Noise Marines and getting CSMs with the MoN, Plasma, VoTLW and CC weapons. No Rhinos.

- Increasing the unit size of the Bikers to 10. Giving them MoN instead of MoS.

- Giving the CL MoN instead of MoS.

- Adding a Heldrake or a LasPred. I would need to paint the Heldrake if I am going to use him.

 

Tactically, what I am really planning to do is charge them with bikers as soon as possible, deep strike Obliterators behind their lines to blow up the big guns, and creeping up with the CSMs as the game goes on. It would also help me if anyone had any insight into 6th edition tactics vs Tau, I really don't know that much about them since I don't play against them often.

 

One thing to note: my opponent does not use kroot, preferring to use crisis suits for close combat. He doesn't even have the models, everything is pure Tau.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I've only played one game against gunline Tau in 6th Edition thus far, but it was with our previous Codex, not our current one. I used a 2000-pt combo Nurgle/Slaanesh list led by Typhus and a Wing Prince of Slaanesh with Wind of Chaos, 2 squads of sonic-ed Noise Marines, 2 squads of plasma Plague Marines with Rhinos, a Terminator squad with Icon of Nurgle to run with Typhus, a squad of Raptors to run with the Prince, and a Chosen + Rhino squad of special weapons for Outflank. Stupid Night Fighting cost me the Prince and the Raptors to the entire Tau army's guns in the space of two turns, but their sacrifice allowed the Plague Marines and Noise Marines to advance to within shooting range, Typhus and crew to Deep Strike on one flank and the Chosen squad to Outflank onto the other. True T5, Feel No Pain, flamer templates and non-Salvo sonic blasters basically broke the Tau after that. I lost the Prince, the Raptors, and Typhus' Terminator bodyguard; the Tau lost everything but two Crisis suits, a Devilfish, and a wounded Broadside suit locked in CC with Typhus.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'd say keep the noise marines, though possibly drop some of the sonic blasters and merge the squads, as tau verhicles get a 2+ cover save (unless you are facing a tau player who is not a dick, but in this edition, that seems rare.

I've been having problems with my Thousand sons against Tau, though I think a helldrake with bale flamer may be a good idea, especially if the Tau have farsee and pathfinder allies.

[Kickrock]

The only thing I see wrong is the out of place Defiler. You either need x2 Forgefiends or 2x Oblit cults. Something that puts fear into the enemy turn one with its fire power. It'll force him to make mistakes. Other then that its Tactics. How are you playing against him? Are you going 18 inches up with those Rhino's turn one to get into optimal Rapid Fire / Template range? Are you using Smoke Launchers? Are your Obliterators on the table turn one providing fire?

 

Against Tau its going to be Target Saturation and fast, hard hitting attacks. He has the edge at the start of the game with range, you need to take that away from him as fast as you can! Your heavy support has to be shooting hard turn one while everything else gets into position to destory turn two.

 

Don't drop your Noise Marines unless you want. The Bikes will work fine in 2 groups. If you change your Lord which you shouldn't need to I'd suggest a Khorne / Axe Lord. Most importantly, don't Foot Slog CSM against Tau if you can help it. You're giving him too much time to shoot at you before you're in range to fire back! You may give up first blood by a rhino blowing up, but in his face you can table him easy.

 

As for the Helldrake, its nice. I'd take it if its forsrs play, but I'm not a fan of taking flyers against players who don't use flyers.

[techsoldaten]

Thank you for the feedback, one and all.

 

Tau have proven to be the most challenging army for me under 6th edition rules, and my opponent is a fairly skilled player. I want to make sure this is going to be a game this time around.

 

@Khestra the Unbeheld - I appreciate you sharing the tactics. I would be curious to know how many big guns the Tau player brought, thinking about things with Rail Guns here. The last time I faced Tau, my opponent was able to use them to great effect in the first round of shooting.

 

@Rune Priest Ridcully - In regards to the Noise Marines, yeah, the fact so many of their vehicles get shrouded makes fighting Tau hard. I am a huge fan of Noise Marines and brought 40 to the last game, only to lose around 75% of the models in the first three rounds (before I was close enough to shoot). It was a big points sink, and my logic was to get many smaller units of tougher CSMs instead. While it's nice to be able to shoot into cover, it's really only the Blastmasters that can put the hurt on Tau vehicles. This just seemed to be a lot of points to spend on AV. Any idea how good Tau AV is? I am not sure what they can field that has Skyfire except Quad Lasers.

 

@Kickrock - Yeah, I definitely want to get rid of the Defiler against Tau. The pie plates just don't seem to do what they are supposed to. I have the models to field 2 full squads of Obliterators, and I plan on deep striking them near his vehicles during the game for maximum effect.

 

One issue I ran into the last time I played this guy - he went first and was able to take out 2 of my Rhinos in his first shooting phase. It congested my troops and made it hard to advance the Rhinos that were still standing. As an alternative, I was thinking about bringing in 2 squads of 10 Nurgle bikers and moving flat out turn one so I could charge turn 2. At T6, the Tau are not going to be able to do too much against the Bikers (who will clean up / tarpit in cc), and this would set up a situation where smaller CSM units are in position to do some damage by turn 4. Does this sound viable or am I just dreaming? I can buy nearly twice as many CSMs for the same price as the NMs.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If I'm remembering his list correctly, he had a Crisis Commander, two Crisis suits as bodyguards, another squad of 3 Crisis suits, 3 Fire Warrior teams, 2 Pathfinder squads (I may be mistaken about this one), 3 Devilfish, 1 Hammerhead with ion cannon, and the 3 Broadsides. The whole army had blacksun filters, there were seeker missiles everywhere that could carry them, and the Crisis suits were a mishmash of weapon selections.

 

Oh, and my list had 2 Oblits that basically did nothing but play long-range lascannon support the entire game.

[Brother Ambroz]

Maybe try bringing a Huron or Huron counts as for some infiltrating? If you get 1st turn you could zip up there with bikes/raptors/whatever and essentially alpha strike him.

[loku]

For TAU the Daemon Prince with wings, and several units of Termis... Deep striking is the stronger "weapon" against TAU... Maybe Raptors/Warp Talons!

[techsoldaten]

For TAU the Daemon Prince with wings, and several units of Termis... Deep striking is the stronger "weapon" against TAU... Maybe Raptors/Warp Talons!

Hrm... I have had luck with a double daemon prince list recently, and I have a lot of raptors sitting around.

[Azekai]

For TAU the Daemon Prince with wings, and several units of Termis... Deep striking is the stronger "weapon" against TAU... Maybe Raptors/Warp Talons!

Hrm... I have had luck with a double daemon prince list recently, and I have a lot of raptors sitting around.

Just don't have your DPs get shot by those railguns. Those long-range Str 10 weapons are a silver bullet for the DPs.

[techsoldaten]

For TAU the Daemon Prince with wings, and several units of Termis... Deep striking is the stronger "weapon" against TAU... Maybe Raptors/Warp Talons!

Hrm... I have had luck with a double daemon prince list recently, and I have a lot of raptors sitting around.

Just don't have your DPs get shot by those railguns. Those long-range Str 10 weapons are a silver bullet for the DPs.

Yeah, those things are horrible. I did not have a DP the last time I faced this guy, but he was using them to knock out Rhinos and biker squads. They have a nasty synergy with the fire warriors, where the rail gun pops the tank and the warriors clean up the troops.

[loku]

For TAU the Daemon Prince with wings, and several units of Termis... Deep striking is the stronger "weapon" against TAU... Maybe Raptors/Warp Talons!

Hrm... I have had luck with a double daemon prince list recently, and I have a lot of raptors sitting around.

Just don't have your DPs get shot by those railguns. Those long-range Str 10 weapons are a silver bullet for the DPs.

 

Those railguns are bad for everything...

 

Easy... 1st fly to the enemy and shoot if you have any power (the 6s are rare numbers), 2nd shoot and jump to the enemy and kill them all.

[Azekai]

For TAU the Daemon Prince with wings, and several units of Termis... Deep striking is the stronger "weapon" against TAU... Maybe Raptors/Warp Talons!

Hrm... I have had luck with a double daemon prince list recently, and I have a lot of raptors sitting around.

Just don't have your DPs get shot by those railguns. Those long-range Str 10 weapons are a silver bullet for the DPs.

 

Those railguns are bad for everything...

 

Easy... 1st fly to the enemy and shoot if you have any power (the 6s are rare numbers), 2nd shoot and jump to the enemy and kill them all.

Railguns are bad for everything, but they won't one-shot kill your chaos lord or sorcerers. They will, however, completely destroy those big single model units or vehicles.

 

It is not easy. If the Tau player has half a clue, they will shoot you with everything (including marker lights :)) to ground the big guy, then open up with the railguns on the DP. One failed invuln or cover later and he is deader than Horus.

 

Are you open to daemon allies, Techsoldaten? Deepstriking next to the tau can severely limit the amount of shooting they can put out, and all codex: daemons units have eternal warrior . . .

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

One would think Tau were the 6th Ed codex and we were the 4th ed one from how powerful they are...

[zyl-]

Against Tau, I would recommend melta over plasma for tank hunters, actually.(I use raptors rather than bikers, so the gain of relentless could make my strat moot) Melta is better for crunching a tank fast and it's an assault weapon, which will be very helpful when attention turns to broadsides or suits. With assault being our best asset against the Tau, we should be trying to get there fast. Last game vs tau, I actually rushed a landraider directly through the mid right off and it bought me a turn of railgun spam, which was enough time to pretty much decide the game's fate turn 2. Sure the landraider was expensive, and putting terminators inside was expensive, but he literally had to kill the unit or eat a massive turn 2 assault. My army had vindicators (which lost turn 1 shots due to night fighting) that CRUSHED him turn 2. This was because the Tau were deploying defensively and trying to fill holes to avoid a deepstrike hazard. I know my strategy isn't popular, but I leave my opinion on the matter none the less.

[Trevak Dal]

preferring to use crisis suits for close combat

 

How have you lost with Chaos Space Marines against this kind of...foolishness?

 

get many smaller units of tougher CSMs instead.

.

 

So...you were having problems with him wiping out your moderate sized units of fearless shooting CSMs, and you decide that the answer is to lower the model count? Do you know the one army that would crap consistently on Grey Knight Driago wing in it's prime? Tau, because they are better at doing the multiple small unit thing.

 

There are multiple answers to the problem, getting to a certain points level allows you to levy more dangerous stuff than he can potentially take care of. Firewarriors got a buff and have been known to do surprisingly OK in close combat, but you need to Overwhelm him. A good Tau player will only hold an area for as long as necessary and then retreating. They don't have much psychic defense. Something to consider would be the Mace Daemonweapon. It's AP4, but so are his firewarriors. You'd be getting d6 + 3 attacks with WS6 (or better) against WS2 or 3 at best (5 if against farsight). You cause 1 wound, the rest of the crisis suit blob has to take that test and if they fail, it's bye-bye Gundams.

 

Dirge Casters will cut down on any overwatch tomfoolery-though your vehicles probably won't last long. I'd suggest taking larger squads (15+) of guys that are either fearless (cult marines) or can be made fearless without being sniped (lord joining) along with the Dakka Fiends and Heldrakes to put the pressure on. Get your bikers down the throat of his broadsides.

[King Jackal]

10 man Nurgle CSM squads, plasma and Flamers. Run them in rhinos.

2 princes with wings, aura, Armour, burning brand.

2-3 drakes, 1x5 MoK/N spawn/MoN bikers, depending.

 

Noise marines don't cut with tau in my opinion. The initiative perk (with some exceptions) isn't needed and the sonic weapons only help if you are planning to outgun him, entrenched and within 24"

Flamers on your way into all out assault with far superior combat ability and t5 will be hard for him to respond to. The rhinos should stick around for a while with all the threats in the sky to occupy his big guns, getting your 3-4 troop squads in position to chew his gun line.

Speaking of threats in the sky, 3-4 torrent blast will ruin his day, inside or out.

Maulerfiends would only add to this list I think, with there pace and threat level, that said I love Obliterators and having back court plasma for the suits will always pay dividends.

Spawn are a lot of fun against tau, the decision to make is the extra charge attacks or t6.

[techsoldaten]

Alright everyone, thank you for the discussion and the PMs. D-Day is tomorrow, and I am still working on this list.

 

Right now, it looks like this:

 

- CL on Bike with Sigil of Corruption, Black Mace, MoS

- CS with Terminator Armor, MoN, 2 extra levels, Combi-Melta

- 2x 5 man Biker squad with MoS, IoE, Meltas

- 2x 10 man NM Squads with Sonics, Blastmasters, IoE, VoTLW and Rhino

- 1x 4 man Terminator squad, MoN, Combi-melta, VoTLW

- Heldrake (which I still have to paint), Hades Autocannon

- Land Raider, Combi-bolter, Havoc Launcher

- unit of 3 Obliterators with MoN, VoTLW

 

This is coming in at over 2,000 points, so I need to trim back in some areas, but I think it spreads out the threats pretty effectively and everything is very fast with the potential to attack any of the units he is likely to field.

 

The CL goes with the Bikers, the CS goes with the terminators, the Obliterators deep strike, the Rhinos move up the middle behind the Land Raider and the bikers come up around the side. I will probably move flat out the first turn with all the vehicles to get as close as possible to the Tau before disembarking, the vehicles don't carry a lot of firepower themselves. If I get first turn, that obviously makes this better, but what I really want to do is get Master of Deception. If I get that, the Land Raider and possibly the bikers infiltrate.

 

What I am still thinking:

 

- I may drop the land raider for 2 Predators

- I may combine the bikers for one uber unit and possibly cut it by 1 or 2 models

- I may drop the heldrake for another unit of obliterators

- I may drop the heldrake for a large unit of Spawn

- I may put missile launchers on the Rhinos

 

Some of the suggestions that I have already written off:

 

- Fiends of any sort, I don't have the models

- Raptors, they are not tough enough even with MoN

- Vindicators, the gun will take too long to get into range

- Dakkapreds, I am only interested in lasers

- Plague Marines, they are too slow

- Daemon Prince with MoN, I want more units instead of bullet magnets

[Panzerbjørn]

As a Tau player, I would suggest doing everything you can to take out the marker lights.

 

I have been murderising everyone I play against in 6th, and the only ones that I have drawn with are the ones who have figured out that the marker lights are priority #1.

 

Not that I should share that with the enemies of the Greater Good ;-)

[techsoldaten]

Not that I should share that with the enemies of the Greater Good ;-)

Consider us agents of the Greater Wrong.

 

I just don't play against Tau often enough to really know what the marker lights are all about. I know there is a team of smaller Tau guys called Pathfinders, and they have them. Are there other units carrying them I need to worry about?

[Brother Ambroz]

Why take the MoS on your CS? Seems like a bit of a waste there, he's already I5 and you're facing Tau so...

 

I'd keep the bikers as two separate units so you can split your fire.

 

Also, VoTLW on oblits? Just for fluff reasons or?

 

Other than those, it doesn't look bad.

[Azekai]

Also, VoTLW on oblits? Just for fluff reasons or?

I was scratching my head on that one too . . . must be for the LD bonus.

[Brother Ambroz]

Aren't they still fearless? Or did they lose that and I just don't remember....

[Excessus]

Aren't they still fearless? Or did they lose that and I just don't remember....

Nope, they are not...

[Trevak Dal]

As a Tau player, I would suggest doing everything you can to take out the marker lights.

 

I have been murderising everyone I play against in 6th, and the only ones that I have drawn with are the ones who have figured out that the marker lights are priority #1.

 

Not that I should share that with the enemies of the Greater Good ;-)

 

Few things are as satisfying as making Space Marines take guardsman saves...and then taking those away from them. I like to imagine my Hunter Cadre has a hall on their ships where the put up the scraps of metal (and so much fur from all the Spehss Wolfes everybody dropped flags to around here) left after they cleanse another world of Gue'la taint. Their destruction is for the Greater Good, and we It's instrument.