Why wheren't the Wolves at Isstvan

[Arkangilos]

except the presence of the Custodians...Horus doesnt have the authority to order them anywhere.

 

as they were with the Wolves, the Emperor (or Malcador maybe...not sure if he can command them) had to send the Wolves to Prospero.

 

WLK

 

We never said that they weren't on Terra. But if they were sent at or before Istavaan III, no one knew that Horus had turned yet. Therefore, in route Horus can call Russ, and convince Russ that rather than capture him, he should destroy him. Russ, not believing Horus is evil, listens to the slanders that Horus speaks and is more likely to take the "destroy them all" approach as opposed to the "Well, it could all just be a misunderstanding" approach.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Angel Exterminatus also has Horus tell Perturabo that Russ has been sent to Prospero just after the destruction of Olympia, so a while before Istvaan.

[Raven Angel]

Angel Exterminatus also has Horus tell Perturabo that Russ has been sent to Prospero just after the destruction of Olympia, so a while before Istvaan.

 

I don't recall any mention of the Thousand Sons, Wolves or Prospero in Angel Exterminatus. Where did you see that? As for the Custodians I have a thought. Evidence suggests that Horus called Russ ahead of Magnus calling the Emperor. Their is also an anomaly of sorts in Fear to Tread; the squad of Wolves sent to watch Sanguinius. I don't know whether anyone else noticed but their orders where signed by Malcador not the Emperor and it was a kill order, Red Knife says so. In light of this I purpose the following order of events.

1. Magnus intervenes at Davin and Horus turns.

2. Horus contacts Russ.

3. Russ Contacts Terra and gets Malcador and Valdor instead of the Emperor.

4. Since the Emperor is busy and Dorn is out of contact. They decide to deal with Magnus on their own.

5. They dispatch troops to watch other "questionable" Primarchs where psykers are concerned and Valdor gathers a force to meet Russ on the way to Prospero.

6. Isstvan III happens

7. Dorn reaches Terra but Malcador doesn't tell him about Magnus as he brings confirmation of Horus' treason.

8. Dorn sends Isstvan V strike force.

9. Dropsite Massacre

10. Magnus' warning arrives. He is officially declared treasonous.

11. Russ arrives at Prospero and destroys that world.

12. Magnus joins Horus.

[daveNYC]

Angel Exterminatus also has Horus tell Perturabo that Russ has been sent to Prospero just after the destruction of Olympia, so a while before Istvaan.

 

I don't recall any mention of the Thousand Sons, Wolves or Prospero in Angel Exterminatus. Where did you see that? As for the Custodians I have a thought. Evidence suggests that Horus called Russ ahead of Magnus calling the Emperor. Their is also an anomaly of sorts in Fear to Tread; the squad of Wolves sent to watch Sanguinius. I don't know whether anyone else noticed but their orders where signed by Malcador not the Emperor and it was a kill order, Red Knife says so. In light of this I purpose the following order of events.

1. Magnus intervenes at Davin and Horus turns.

2. Horus contacts Russ.

3. Russ Contacts Terra and gets Malcador and Valdor instead of the Emperor.

4. Since the Emperor is busy and Dorn is out of contact. They decide to deal with Magnus on their own.

5. They dispatch troops to watch other "questionable" Primarchs where psykers are concerned and Valdor gathers a force to meet Russ on the way to Prospero.

6. Isstvan III happens

7. Dorn reaches Terra but Malcador doesn't tell him about Magnus as he brings confirmation of Horus' treason.

8. Dorn sends Isstvan V strike force.

9. Dropsite Massacre

10. Magnus' warning arrives. He is officially declared treasonous.

11. Russ arrives at Prospero and destroys that world.

12. Magnus joins Horus.

 

I know that Malcador is the Emperor's numero uno dude, but making the call to kill one of the Emperor's sons on the basis of Horus telling Russ telling Malcador is a stretch. Plus, when Dorn tells Malcador that Horus has turned, wouldn't Malcador try to recall Russ?

[Grimtooth]

Angel Exterminatus also has Horus tell Perturabo that Russ has been sent to Prospero just after the destruction of Olympia, so a while before Istvaan.

 

I don't recall any mention of the Thousand Sons, Wolves or Prospero in Angel Exterminatus. Where did you see that? As for the Custodians I have a thought. Evidence suggests that Horus called Russ ahead of Magnus calling the Emperor. Their is also an anomaly of sorts in Fear to Tread; the squad of Wolves sent to watch Sanguinius. I don't know whether anyone else noticed but their orders where signed by Malcador not the Emperor and it was a kill order, Red Knife says so. In light of this I purpose the following order of events.

1. Magnus intervenes at Davin and Horus turns.

2. Horus contacts Russ.

3. Russ Contacts Terra and gets Malcador and Valdor instead of the Emperor.

4. Since the Emperor is busy and Dorn is out of contact. They decide to deal with Magnus on their own.

5. They dispatch troops to watch other "questionable" Primarchs where psykers are concerned and Valdor gathers a force to meet Russ on the way to Prospero.

6. Isstvan III happens

7. Dorn reaches Terra but Malcador doesn't tell him about Magnus as he brings confirmation of Horus' treason.

8. Dorn sends Isstvan V strike force.

9. Dropsite Massacre

10. Magnus' warning arrives. He is officially declared treasonous.

11. Russ arrives at Prospero and destroys that world.

12. Magnus joins Horus.

 

The Wolves sent to "observe" Sang know about Magnus' traitorous actions, know that Russ was sent to Prospero, but do not know how it turned out. It does mention that they are sent to watch Sang with a quote along the lines of, "if one son can disobey, so can others" which was in regard to Magnus.

[KarkassBC]

The Wolves sent to "observe" Sang know about Magnus' traitorous actions, know that Russ was sent to Prospero, but do not know how it turned out. It does mention that they are sent to watch Sang with a quote along the lines of, "if one son can disobey, so can others" which was in regard to Magnus.

 

Right.

 

The SW were sent to the BA because Sanguinius was one of the founders of the Librarium project... We don't have a similar units with the Khan because the WS were too far away and their real position was more or less unknown.

 

In this way the sending of the Wolves to Prospero was related to Nikaea not the message from Magnus to the Emperor.

 

The Emperor planned to erase the TS at Nikaea (in Prospero Burn: three companies of SW were ready for an attack on the TS) but after the "neutral" speakers (the librarian of the other Legions) he cannot declare the purge of the TS without a possible unrest of the other Primarchs.

So the Emperor made a new decree and went back to Terra. After he gave to Russ the order to capture Magnus and bring him to Terra (to put him inside a mighty cell in his personal dungeon) with the idea to separate him from his Legion (without Magnus teaching, the Emperor planned to save the rest of the Legion, maybe splitting them amongst the other Legions like the II and XI).

 

But Horus as a Warmaster was aware of every movement of the Legion fleets and knowing the reason of Russ mission, preferred to destroy Magnus without the risk to find him during the Siege of Terra at the side of the Emperor (with a personal pardon like a supreme Grey Knight).

[Raven Angel]

Unless "ultimate sanction" means something else in your world Malcador ordered the Angel killed by "fiat" at Red Knife's discretion.

[Grimtooth]

The Wolves sent to "observe" Sang know about Magnus' traitorous actions, know that Russ was sent to Prospero, but do not know how it turned out. It does mention that they are sent to watch Sang with a quote along the lines of, "if one son can disobey, so can others" which was in regard to Magnus.

 

Right.

 

The SW were sent to the BA because Sanguinius was one of the founders of the Librarium project... We don't have a similar units with the Khan because the WS were too far away and their real position was more or less unknown.

 

In this way the sending of the Wolves to Prospero was related to Nikaea not the message from Magnus to the Emperor.

 

The Emperor planned to erase the TS at Nikaea (in Prospero Burn: three companies of SW were ready for an attack on the TS) but after the "neutral" speakers (the librarian of the other Legions) he cannot declare the purge of the TS without a possible unrest of the other Primarchs.

So the Emperor made a new decree and went back to Terra. After he gave to Russ the order to capture Magnus and bring him to Terra (to put him inside a mighty cell in his personal dungeon) with the idea to separate him from his Legion (without Magnus teaching, the Emperor planned to save the rest of the Legion, maybe splitting them amongst the other Legions like the II and XI).

 

But Horus as a Warmaster was aware of every movement of the Legion fleets and knowing the reason of Russ mission, preferred to destroy Magnus without the risk to find him during the Siege of Terra at the side of the Emperor (with a personal pardon like a supreme Grey Knight).

 

Completely wrong.

 

It had nothing to do with Sanguinous being part of the librarium program as Redknife mentions that SW observers were being sent across the galaxy to all the Legions to keep an eye on the primarchs of each respective Legion.

 

The only way that the Emperor knew that Magnus had broken the edict was due to the message he sent to the Emperor which showed the true extent of how far he had delved into sorcery. This is supported by the novels and by the IA articles.

 

The Emperor did not want to erase the TS at Nikaea. The SW were ONLY there if Magnus rejected the edict. It had nothing to do with the small librarian delegation that stepped forward. The SW were basically just security with one jarl even saying something along the lines of, "secure the primary and every shot is a kill shot to do it."

 

Seriously man, do you just make crap up as you go along? Absolutely nothing you have spouted is supported or even hinted at in anyway or form from the HH series to the old IA articles.

[MadDoc]

Seriously man, do you just make crap up as you go along?

Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle? :P

 

Seriously man, given your propensity for unabashed pro-Space Wolf rants (which more often than not play fast and loose with the facts) you really shouldn't be throwing around remarks like that.

 

Even if KarkassBC did happen to be talking out of an orifice usually reserved for the expulsion of waste. Leaving it at a simple "that is totally wrong, and here is why..." would have been a far better idea than resorting to the above hyperbolic, and quite frankly hypocritical, remark.

 

:no:

[KarkassBC]

Thanks MadDoc for your words...

 

BTW I don't want to see rhis thread closed so I don't reply in an angry mode.

 

First my idea is a hypothesis.

I haven't t said that is the truth. Only a possible explanation why the Space Wolves were sent to Prospero before the arrival of the message of Magnus.

 

Going to every point:

 

3 Companies

Read this: "Three companies. Three companies? What could be happening on this place Nikaea that demanded the presence of three companies of Wolves?"

More than a simple security measure while at the same time there were a lot of Custodes and Sisters of Silence already capable to take care of any problem... don't forget the Emperor was there with many other Primarchs (quite all of them).

 

Later a company commander said

"‘We’re here purely as a safety measure,’ said Lord Gunn. ‘Make that understood. We only reveal our strength if wyrd turns against us. If that happens, this becomes a no-quarter operation, where our only purpose is to secure the primary. Anything and everything that moves contrary to us under those circumstances gets a kill-stroke. Are we clear? I don’t care who it is."

 

 

They know perfectly the main target of the Edict, but the bold part reports that the SW expected other Legion would sided with the TS or defend them.

During the conversation the SW talked about the TS as sorcerers so there is no need to stay vague in that point. But the "possible" reason is the reference to other Legions

 

Space Wolves observer teams.

I read the words of Redknife about similar jarls to other Primarchs, but we haven't read anything of these observers. When we found another units, I would accept the words of Redknife as true and not only a "motivational speech" to a dubious brother about their impossible task (kill a Primarch).

 

But if it is true the Emperor was aware of the coming Heresy and made very strange decisions... for example allowing the Night Lords to go to punish Horus when Curze had seriously wounded another Primarch and destroyed an imperial world (Nostramo) and the same for the Iron Warrior on Olympia...

You don't put dubious units on your back when you fight the enemies... not when other units are already declared traitors against you...

[Arkangilos]

Well, the two missing legions weren't split up among the other legions (a long established fact). Also, IIRC, the Emperor wanted Magnus brought back so that Magnus could sit on the throne while the Emperor dealt with the Webway Crisis, and the developing Heresy. (I remember that from the collected visions. The Emperor talks about how he had originally planned to have Magnus sit on the throne to keep the daemons at bay so that he could deal with Horus, but Horus convinced Russ to attack and try to destroy Magnus instead of bringing him back).

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the two missing legions weren't split up among the other legions (a long established fact).

No offense, but if we don't know what happened to them, then how do we know what didn't?

 

And if I was Magnus, I probably wouldn't want to be a living battery for a stupid chair either.

[Arkangilos]

Well, the two missing legions weren't split up among the other legions (a long established fact).

No offense, but if we don't know what happened to them, then how do we know what didn't?

 

And if I was Magnus, I probably wouldn't want to be a living battery for a stupid chair either.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Also, Magnus would only need to sit on it until the Emperor could fix the problem that MAGNUS CAUSED.

I don't think Magnus would have been against it.

[King Willy]

The fact that Magnus was trying to warn the emperor shows he was still loyal, or at least still in control

He would be more then willing to sit on the throne me s thinks

 

As for the timeline issue, remember that time is relative and so can t be mapped out effectively without a little bit of percieved time travel, until gw/bl announce an official timeline we can t do anymore then assume as to the series of events

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The fact that Magnus was trying to warn the emperor shows he was still loyal, or at least still in control

 

the method Magnus used to warn the Emperor shows he was disloyal, and playing with powers far above him.

 

WLK

[Raven Angel]

You are both right. It is clear Magnus wanted only what was best for the Imperium. Yet it is also clear that even though he knew a lot about the "Great Ocean" he was willfully ignorant of its true dangers and of the beings that lived there.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

You are both right. It is clear Magnus wanted only what was best for the Imperium. Yet it is also clear that even though he knew a lot about the "Great Ocean" he was willfully ignorant of its true dangers and of the beings that lived there.

 

the problem with Magnus's ignorance is that he wasnt ignorant, according to the Collected Visions. In CV it states that when the Emperor found Magnus, he thought it would be more dangerous to leave Magnus ignorant of the Warp and it's denizens, so spent extra time teaching Magnus everything he knew. He also made Magnus swear to halt the sorcerous practices of Prospero.

 

While Magnus swore he would, he lied. Magnus was already entralled by the powers of the Warp, and the powers it promised him.

 

Magnus had a choice, and several warnings to halt his actions. He didnt, and broke 2 oaths to the Emperor.

 

WLK

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Oh Magnus knew. That is the point of the deal he made with the "Creator"/Shadow in the Warp to save his legion from the Fleshchange. He lost his eye for that knowledge. Literally. Mags lies about it constantly. He even lies about it to Lorgar and Lorgar saw the truth at that moment in his brother's denial. It might be the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak in regards to Lorgar's quest to replace the Emperor with something worth worshiping. Ahriman knew there was a lie behind his master's evasion.

 

Still, Magnus was damaged goods at that point. Not to say he was beyond redemption but he looked to be the guilty party at the time. The fact that he pointed the finger at the Golden Boy, Horus, the only Primarch better or above all others at everything, did not help; add to the fact he unraveled years of work and let demons loose on Terra and mind-fried thousands and had a feud with the guy sent to bring him to heel... well it just wasnt fated in the stars, loyal intentions or no. Making all the wrong moves for noble and altruistic reasons does not make them correct or excusable.

[DarthMarko]

Seriously man, do you just make crap up as you go along?

Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle? :rolleyes:

 

Seriously man, given your propensity for unabashed pro-Space Wolf rants (which more often than not play fast and loose with the facts) you really shouldn't be throwing around remarks like that.

 

Even if KarkassBC did happen to be talking out of an orifice usually reserved for the expulsion of waste. Leaving it at a simple "that is totally wrong, and here is why..." would have been a far better idea than resorting to the above hyperbolic, and quite frankly hypocritical, remark.

 

:no:

 

Now I'm gonna say to you "Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle"...

Everything what @Ramses writes (or any of my bro-fans) you respond in a negative manner, I'mean you are always pissing on something which favors SW and it's getting very irritating (that's why I responded to this)...

No offense but you are no better with your comments....

 

Well, the two missing legions weren't split up among the other legions (a long established fact).

No offense, but if we don't know what happened to them, then how do we know what didn't?

 

And if I was Magnus, I probably wouldn't want to be a living battery for a stupid chair either.

 

Yep,agree - I'think deamon was teasing him about his future as a living battery....("Thousand sons" novel)

[MadDoc]

The manner of Magnus' warning was like trying to get somebodies attention by throwing a live hand grenade at them.

 

---------------

 

Now I'm gonna say to you "Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle"...

To paraphrase somewhat... "You try using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

 

Everything what @Ramses writes (or any of my bro-fans) you respond in a negative manner, I'mean you are always pissing on something which favors SW and it's getting very irritating (that's why I responded to this)...

Bro-fans? :P :no:

 

Two things -

1) What I respond to negatively is when Ramses indulges his habit of making declarative "the Wolves are great/right/the best/extra-special/flawless/whatever, and these selective facts prove it beyond all doubt" type remarks, while going light on solid facts to back up those claims (while any potentially contradictory information seems to go mysteriously unmentioned/ignored).

 

2) I do not always (or ever) "piss on" something just because it favours the Space Wolves. As a SW fan myself it'd be a bit odd if I did (yes thats right, a DA player that also likes the SW).

 

My best guess is that you're somehow conflating me taking exception to several posts from Ramses and yourself (due to my dislike of anybody trying to push fallacy as fact) for me somehow being anti-SW. The fact that those posts are invariably related to the SW (usually some OTT claim of how the SW are the bestest/"special"/faultless or the some other such claim) has more to do with the blatant "tunnel vision" like pro-SW bias the two of you share, than with some prejudice you (wrongly) imagine I have.

 

No offence but you are no better with your comments....

Given that you're talking a load of utter tosh, no offense taken.

[King Willy]

Magnus knew and I think he felt he was beyond reproach because of it

The emperor is a very egotistical man and it is likely that his sons saw him as infalliable, it's not a long leap in logic to assume that Magnus thought his knowledge gave him a greater control over the warp.

I don t deny he was being used by the chaos gods but I believe his intentions were to save the imperium and thought the emperor would forgive him for using sorcery.

 

As for the wolves going, I doubt they would so willingly give up the chase for Magnus to go to isstvan anyway.

The wolves hate the 1k sons with a passion and so the option to charge down Magnus would be to much for them.

[KarkassBC]

Please, we need to try to avoid discussion pro or against SW... the thread is the absence of the Wolves at Istvaan.

 

Let me summarize the topic.

 

Main point.

Lore couldn't be changed. SW weren't at Istvaan no matter what happened around. They were sent by the Emperor to Prospero.

 

The different reasons behind.

 

Theory One - They were sent before Istvaan III for Magnus's message, breaking the Edict of Nikaea.

Pro: in Prospero Burn, Russ reported the message content to his marines. He told that Horus as a traitor was impossible and a lie from Magnus.

Against: in Outcast Dead, the Wolves were sent after Istvaan V, when the entire betrayal was completed.

 

Theory Two - They were sent before Istvaan III to punish the TS for their sorcery not the message.

Pro: in Fear to Tread, Redknike told to his SW brothers the entire galaxy wide operations made by similar units.

They saw the Word Bearers and knew about the Horus's orders to Sanguinius and they didn't said a word against. They considered those Legions as loyal so Istvaan III or V hadn't happened.

Pro: in the Horus Trilogy, the Warmaster spoke to Russ before his betrayal.

Against: They didn't said which act of sorcery was censured by the Emperor.

 

Theory Three - They were sent after Istvaan III to destroy a possible ally of Horus.

Against: Prospero Burn

 

Theory Four - They were sent after Istvaan V for the breaking of the Edict and the Warp Gate inside Terra.

Pro: Outcast Dead

Against: every other books printed.

 

Kol-Saresk tried to fix the theories with a Time Warp Echo image of Magnus.

 

My fix it's a little change of the reasons behind the sending of the SW fleet to Prospero. The SW were sent only for the breaking of the Edict with the training of the TS Space Marines in the dark arts of sorcery. The message happened later than Istvaan V when the SW fleet was already moving in the Warp.

 

BTW. Magnus has not broken the Edict, even with his message... He was a primarch not a warrior of the Legion... so formally the Edict allowed him to use psychic powers without restrictions... the Edict disallowed only for the battle-brothers or "Astartes".

[DarthMarko]

The manner of Magnus' warning was like trying to get somebodies attention by throwing a live hand grenade at them.

 

---------------

 

Now I'm gonna say to you "Hello Mr Pot, have you met Mr Kettle"...

To paraphrase somewhat... "You try using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

 

Everything what @Ramses writes (or any of my bro-fans) you respond in a negative manner, I'mean you are always pissing on something which favors SW and it's getting very irritating (that's why I responded to this)...

Bro-fans? :P :no:

 

Two things -

1) What I respond to negatively is when Ramses indulges his habit of making declarative "the Wolves are great/right/the best/extra-special/flawless/whatever, and these selective facts prove it beyond all doubt" type remarks, while going light on solid facts to back up those claims (while any potentially contradictory information seems to go mysteriously unmentioned/ignored).

 

2) I do not always (or ever) "piss on" something just because it favours the Space Wolves. As a SW fan myself it'd be a bit odd if I did (yes thats right, a DA player that also likes the SW).

 

My best guess is that you're somehow conflating me taking exception to several posts from Ramses and yourself (due to my dislike of anybody trying to push fallacy as fact) for me somehow being anti-SW. The fact that those posts are invariably related to the SW (usually some OTT claim of how the SW are the bestest/"special"/faultless or the some other such claim) has more to do with the blatant "tunnel vision" like pro-SW bias the two of you share, than with some prejudice you (wrongly) imagine I have.

 

No offence but you are no better with your comments....

Given that you're talking a load of utter tosh, no offense taken.

Hmm,what pro-SW bias? Men, just point the facts and politely correct them, you don't have to mock someone always...Btw, tell me one fan who isn't a little biased (on this forum) ??? IMHO sarcastic and mocking comments are far worse then biased and posting those you are only adding oil on the fire...

 

P.S. I'm not fanatical, just very pissed...

[King Willy]

Ignoring the arguements and back to topic.

 

The I don't think there is a definative answer as to why the Wolves weren't at Isstavan, they may or may not have helped, after all they aren't a group to run from a fight, and likely would come back as baddly mauled as the Raven Guard and Sallies.

 

The big reason they got mauled had more to do with the secret tactics the Traitors had, e.g. Emperors Children with Sonic weapons, Possessed Word Bearers, Khorne Berzerkers would have popped up, though the Death Guard didn't yet have plagues they would have been really good in the kind of man to man fighting due to there general tenacity and resisiliance and the general trickery involved in the battle.

 

The best most logical reason I can think of sadly has no evidence but requires the least assumption IMHO... The warps erratic nature at the time.

 

It's likely that for some involved, predominently on the traitor side, the Heresy was maybe at best 7 years long, for many it would likely be 10 to 15 years long due to Time Dialation from Terra, hell some events would have chronologically occured before the heresy but physically occured after.

 

we can't really placce any event involving a galaxy wide conflict into a fixed timeline, without simply forcing bits into place, all we can do is accept what we are told.

 

That the Wolves weren't at Isstavan because they were hunting Magnus and the Thousand Sons.

[Rime]

I'm going to go ahead and add my voice to this. The answer to the question has already been nailed down on page 2 of this topic. The timeline turned to muck when McNeill wrote Outcast Dead. My intention is not to bash, but reasons needs to be said. McNeill has a fanbase of die hard fanboys, including Many GW staff. God forbid, if you dare speak ill of McNeill you would be promptly banned from said store. Because of this The Black Library has given him exlusive free reign to do as he pleases, regardless of results. Outcast Dead should have NEVER have made it the shelves of stories worldwide. So for that reason it shouldn't be considered as acutal plot or apart of the HH series.

But I have to say I did enjoy A Thousand Sons. It was one of the rare books suited to his writing style.

As for the HH Collection Visions... Well I own a copy myself and I have read it. A bit of a mistake really since its now deemed irrelevant. The HH series is been totally rewritten from the ground up. So nothing can really be sourced and used as accurate information from that dead weight. This seems to be the case for much of the lore released in the past regarding all areas of 40k.

 

I dunno... Frankly the whole series is not worth spewing hate at each other over. The end result will be iffy regardless of who writes the finiallies. I'd say that's one reason why its taking so long to come to some sort of conclusion in the HH series. Salvage what you can and piece together a decent story from what infomation is out there.