Why wheren't the Wolves at Isstvan

[DarthMarko]

I'm going to go ahead and add my voice to this. The answer to the question has already been nailed down on page 2 of this topic. The timeline turned to muck when McNeill wrote Outcast Dead. My intention is not to bash, but reasons needs to be said. McNeill has a fanbase of die hard fanboys, including Many GW staff. God forbid, if you dare speak ill of McNeill you would be promptly banned from said store. Because of this The Black Library has given him exlusive free reign to do as he pleases, regardless of results. Outcast Dead should have NEVER have made it the shelves of stories worldwide. So for that reason it shouldn't be considered as acutal plot or apart of the HH series.

But I have to say I did enjoy A Thousand Sons. It was one of the rare books suited to his writing style.

As for the HH Collection Visions... Well I own a copy myself and I have read it. A bit of a mistake really since its now deemed irrelevant. The HH series is been totally rewritten from the ground up. So nothing can really be sourced and used as accurate information from that dead weight. This seems to be the case for much of the lore released in the past regarding all areas of 40k.

 

I dunno... Frankly the whole series is not worth spewing hate at each other over. The end result will be iffy regardless of who writes the finiallies. I'd say that's one reason why its taking so long to come to some sort of conclusion in the HH series. Salvage what you can and piece together a decent story from what infomation is out there.

^ this is very true - and the worst facts are, that they are making Mary Sues even before they became Mary Sues and completely watering down mythical setting...

My biggest fear is for finale "Sanguinius vs Horus"...and " Horus vs Emperor " now if they make Horus (backed by all c-gods) a wuss - I'm saying goodbye to BL and their novels...

 

On topic - agree, just remove "OD" from the equation and all is ok...

[Lord_Caerolion]

Angel Exterminatus also has Horus tell Perturabo that Russ has been sent to Prospero just after the destruction of Olympia, so a while before Istvaan.

 

I don't recall any mention of the Thousand Sons, Wolves or Prospero in Angel Exterminatus. Where did you see that?

 

At the beginning of the book, it mentions how shattered Perturabo was after purging Olympia, and then Horus tells him the Wolves have been sent to Prospero. Sorry, I don't have any page numbers on me.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Or we could just ask Björn the Fellhanded he could tell us what Russ had to say about the matter. B) If Russ was angry about Magnus I wonder what swear words he must have used to describe Horus after he found out that he had been duped. :woot:

[Rime]

A side note to some of the debating going in this thread: I'm currently reading Fear To Tread where the duped Sanguinius is sent to Signus Prime. So far I'm on page 118. I am greatly looking forward to the arrival of a new faction in the HH series; Daemons! They did play a pivotal role towards the end of the Heresy. After all, they set foot on Terra and besieged it first. And the Emperor did have to hack through a number of them before he got to Horus - including one of the oldest known Bloodthirsters, Doombreed.

I am very curious to know how they will shape this new version of the heresy.

[EPK]

To paraphrase somewhat... "You try using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

 

INCONCEIVABLE!

 

I knew you had a funny side.

[Raven Angel]

Or we could just ask Björn the Fellhanded he could tell us what Russ had to say about the matter. ;) If Russ was angry about Magnus I wonder what swear words he must have used to describe Horus after he found out that he had been duped. ;)

 

This is what Russ had to say to Magnus

 

‘Magnus, Magnus, Crimson King, brother of mine,’ he said. ‘I know you can hear me. You planted this

instrument, this poor unwilling fellow, Ibn Rustah, you planted him among us so you could learn our

secrets. Guess what? We’re as smart as you. Smarter, perhaps. We saw your spy for what he was, and we

made no effort to remove him. We kept him with us so we could look back at you, Magnus. So we could

learn your secrets. An eye can look out and it can look in. You should know that, you who look deeper

than most.’

The Wolf King turned and walked a few paces away. He picked up the sceptre again, and sat down in

the throne. He rested the sceptre in his lap, leaned his head on one fist and gazed back at Hawser.

‘I’ve got nothing to hide from you, Magnus. Nothing. You know how I work. My enemies should know

what’s coming to greet them. It fixes them in the right mental place to be annihilated. I don’t like to hide

my strengths or my approach. I’d rather my foe knows the full, unimaginable fury that is about to descend

upon him.’

The Wolf King paused. He swallowed. He seemed to be considering his next words.

‘That’s not why I’m talking to you now. I’m talking to you because I hope you’ll listen. I’m talking to you

as the personal courtesy extended from one brother to another. What is about to happen should not be

happening. You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you, and it breaks

the very soul of our father to place his sons in opposition. But you have done this. You have brought this.

You have brought this action.’

Russ swallowed again. He looked down at the deck, though he was still directing his words at Hawser.

Hawser stood numb, shaking, rooted to the spot.

‘We gave you every chance, Magnus. We indulged your learning, we gave you room to explore. When

we became fearful of where those explorations were leading you, and how they might endanger everything

we value, we told you of our concerns. The Council at Nikaea, that was supposed to be a moment of

reconciliation. You swore you would renounce the cunning arts. You swore! You swore you would abide

by our father’s ruling!’

His voice dropped to a whisper.

‘You did not. You have proved your intent to ignore the Ruling of Nikaea beyond all doubt. So this is on

you. You must have known our father’s hands would be tied. He would have no other option than to turn

to me to issue sanction.’

Russ looked up into Hawser’s eyes.

‘This is a courtesy, then. From brother to brother. A grace period I would extend to no other enemy.

Settle your affairs. Evacuate the civilians from your cities. Deactivate your defence systems. Bring

yourself and your Thousand Sons out into the open, and prepare to surrender to me upon my arrival.

Please, Magnus. The Wolves of Fenris have been unleashed upon you. Only you have the power to make

the consequences bloodless.’

He rose to his feet.

‘Please, Magnus. Please.’

The Wolf King looked away.

 

After that plea I can imagine the rage directed at Horus.

[Banelord]

I’ve been looking through some old fluff and I think this might put an interesting spin on thing.

 

Index Astartes 2: Space Wolves, page 6.

“Sanguinius was blessed with wings and Russ himself bore the sharpest of fangs. Nonetheless, the Wolf-king feared that the taint of Chaos was ingrained within the giant’s soul. But the Emperor would not hear of his suspicions, as Magnus was one of his own sons.”

“Magnus’ explanations did not pacify the Emperor, and Russ’ worst suspicions were confirmed. At Russ’ insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrified, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons’ Homeworld.”

 

By the sounds of it Russ did not trust Magnus and I think the first excuse he got he would offer to attack him, you could even argue that he believed Magnus was the head traitor.

[KarkassBC]

This is what Russ had to say to Magnus

 

...

‘Please, Magnus. Please.’

The Wolf King looked away.

 

After that plea I can imagine the rage directed at Horus.

 

Not only that

 

 

‘Does he answer?’ he asked, distractedly.

‘I cannot feel an answer,’ Hawser replied, his voice wobbling. ‘But then, I’ve never really known how I work as a conduit.’

Russ grunted.

‘Or if I do,’ Hawser added. He was painfully aware that the other Wolves, especially Helwintr, were glaring at him.

‘I’ve never been totally convinced of that either,’ he said.

The Wolf King made no comment.

 

 

Embarassing moment...

 

Also

 

 

‘A warning, my lord?’

‘One of such terrible importance, Magnus felt it was worth exposing his own treachery to reveal it,’ Russ murmured.

‘Forgive me,’ said Hawser, ‘but does that not speak to some loyalty in your brother? Has the warning been examined? Has it been taken seriously?’

Russ turned back to face him.

‘Why would it? My brother is a madman. A dabbling warlock.’

‘Lord,’ said Hawser, ‘he was prepared to admit he was ignoring the edicts of Nikaea, and risk the censure that he knew must result from that admission, to relay a warning. Why would he do that unless the warning was valid?’

 

 

Another embarassing moment...

 

And the final speech...

 

 

He wants permission and approval to continue with his arcane tinkerings and his foul magics. So he manufactures a threat, something he can warn us about that is so astonishing we would have to forgive him, and set aside our objections. thing so unthinkable, we would have to thank him and tell him he had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’

‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser.

‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’ said Russ. ‘From the look on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’

 

 

And everything in front of a council of company commanders and important characters in the SpaceWolves Legion.

 

At least Angron is better in this comparison. He had received only muscle and not brain.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

yep, Russ, Saguinius, Fulgrim, the Custodes, and everybody behind the scenes at Nikea must have been embarrassed.

 

oh wait, not so much. Because regardless of what Magnus said, he was already a traitor twice over.

 

WLK

[daveNYC]

yep, Russ, Saguinius, Fulgrim, the Custodes, and everybody behind the scenes at Nikea must have been embarrassed.

 

oh wait, not so much. Because regardless of what Magnus said, he was already a traitor twice over.

 

WLK

 

I'm going to leave aside the distinction between disloyal and disobedient, because that way lies madness and a locked thread. However, how exactly was he twice a traitor? Are you counting the intervention with Horus and the warning to Terra as two seperate events?

 

I hope that the next Wolf focused HH novel covers the fallout from Russ being suckered by Horus. Magnus was feeling like a fool at the end of A Thousand Sons, I'd like to hope that Russ is spending a lot of quality time reconsidering things now that he knows that Magnus wasn't lieing, the arch-traitor convinced him to go against the Emperor's orders (we aassume), and that his noble and heartfelt (and I'm serious there, Prosper Burns has some really great dialogue in it) attempts to contact Magnus were actually being broadcast on Tzeentzch's big screen TV and will probably be replayed on the DVR for all eternity.

 

Come on BL, the Wolf King chock full o'self doubt, run with it!

[KarkassBC]

yep, Russ, Saguinius, Fulgrim, the Custodes, and everybody behind the scenes at Nikea must have been embarrassed.

 

oh wait, not so much. Because regardless of what Magnus said, he was already a traitor twice over.

 

WLK

 

At least Malcador and Dorn speaking to Corax in Deliverance Lost (page 157) were not happy of the outcome...

 

 

Malcador said "I fear the numbers of our enemies will be swelled by Russ 's headstrong actions rather than reduced..."

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

yep, Russ, Saguinius, Fulgrim, the Custodes, and everybody behind the scenes at Nikea must have been embarrassed.

 

oh wait, not so much. Because regardless of what Magnus said, he was already a traitor twice over.

 

WLK

 

I'm going to leave aside the distinction between disloyal and disobedient, because that way lies madness and a locked thread. However, how exactly was he twice a traitor? Are you counting the intervention with Horus and the warning to Terra as two seperate events?

 

I hope that the next Wolf focused HH novel covers the fallout from Russ being suckered by Horus. Magnus was feeling like a fool at the end of A Thousand Sons, I'd like to hope that Russ is spending a lot of quality time reconsidering things now that he knows that Magnus wasn't lieing, the arch-traitor convinced him to go against the Emperor's orders (we aassume), and that his noble and heartfelt (and I'm serious there, Prosper Burns has some really great dialogue in it) attempts to contact Magnus were actually being broadcast on Tzeentzch's big screen TV and will probably be replayed on the DVR for all eternity.

 

Come on BL, the Wolf King chock full o'self doubt, run with it!

 

Magnus swore to the Emperor, on two separate occasions, to halt his sorcerous practices. Both times he failed to do so.

 

and I would love to see Russ when the realization of the Heresy hits him. frankly, I would love to see Russ and the Wolves when they arent on guard around what they believe to be a spy.

 

and as far as I am concerned, the Emperor gave Russ the kill order. The Emperor made loud and clear to Magnus what would happen if he broke the Council's edict, and no alteration from Horus us needed.

 

(which goes against earlier pieces, i know, but thats the way the HH rolls)

 

WLK

[KarkassBC]

and as far as I am concerned, the Emperor gave Russ the kill order. The Emperor made loud and clear to Magnus what would happen if he broke the Council's edict, and no alteration from Horus us needed.

 

(which goes against earlier pieces, i know, but thats the way the HH rolls)

 

WLK

 

Sorry to disrupt your idea, but both from loyalist side and also from Horus the initial mission was only to bring Magnus to Terra not to kill him.

 

I accept that the Emperor has said to Russ to use the force if Magnus tried to resist, but not to kill him from the start. Sadly Magnus didn't make any attempt to resist.

 

The Emperor tried to save even Horus after seven years of war... why you think the Emperor gave an easy "executioning order" for a message NOT breaking the rule of Nikaea (because the Edict banned the use of psychic powers to the Astartes not to the Primarchs).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

and as far as I am concerned, the Emperor gave Russ the kill order. The Emperor made loud and clear to Magnus what would happen if he broke the Council's edict, and no alteration from Horus us needed.

 

(which goes against earlier pieces, i know, but thats the way the HH rolls)

 

WLK

 

Sorry to disrupt your idea, but both from loyalist side and also from Horus the initial mission was only to bring Magnus to Terra not to kill him.

 

I accept that the Emperor has said to Russ to use the force if Magnus tried to resist, but not to kill him from the start. Sadly Magnus didn't make any attempt to resist.

 

The Emperor tried to save even Horus after seven years of war... why you think the Emperor gave an easy "executioning order" for a message NOT breaking the rule of Nikaea (because the Edict banned the use of psychic powers to the Astartes not to the Primarchs).

 

Show me where, in print, you have the Emperor's orders to Russ. Because I havent read the orders myself.

 

I've read the older fluff, where Horus altered the orders from capture to kill. And then I read the newer fluff where the Emperor says that to disobey the Edict of Nikea will bring ruination on Magnus.

 

It seems clear to me, that the Emperor made it very clear what was to happen to Magnus.

 

Also, Magnus and Horus are two different beings. One of them was the first found primarch, and the brightest star. the other was a son who disregarded the Emperor's commands twice, and then unleashed daemons upon terra through his arrogance.

 

WLK

[KarkassBC]

and as far as I am concerned, the Emperor gave Russ the kill order. The Emperor made loud and clear to Magnus what would happen if he broke the Council's edict, and no alteration from Horus us needed.

 

(which goes against earlier pieces, i know, but thats the way the HH rolls)

 

WLK

 

Sorry to disrupt your idea, but both from loyalist side and also from Horus the initial mission was only to bring Magnus to Terra not to kill him.

 

I accept that the Emperor has said to Russ to use the force if Magnus tried to resist, but not to kill him from the start. Sadly Magnus didn't make any attempt to resist.

 

The Emperor tried to save even Horus after seven years of war... why you think the Emperor gave an easy "executioning order" for a message NOT breaking the rule of Nikaea (because the Edict banned the use of psychic powers to the Astartes not to the Primarchs).

 

Show me where, in print, you have the Emperor's orders to Russ. Because I havent read the orders myself.

 

I've read the older fluff, where Horus altered the orders from capture to kill. And then I read the newer fluff where the Emperor says that to disobey the Edict of Nikea will bring ruination on Magnus.

 

It seems clear to me, that the Emperor made it very clear what was to happen to Magnus.

 

Also, Magnus and Horus are two different beings. One of them was the first found primarch, and the brightest star. the other was a son who disregarded the Emperor's commands twice, and then unleashed daemons upon terra through his arrogance.

 

WLK

 

We don't have on print the exact orders by the Emperor but we have a lot of persons, Primarchs and even Regent of Terra, hearing it.

 

I have already posted a page number in a previous post. Read page 157 on Deliverance Lost (printed after ATS and PB). Malcador and Dorn described the Wolves as "over-zealous" and the actions done by Russ as "headstrong". The meaning in a dictionary is complete: headstrong /hed.strɒŋ/ /-strɑŋ/ adjective very determined to do what you want without listening to others.

 

Second Horus described that he managed to change the meaning of the orders to have two loyals Legion destroyed.

 

Third. Read the Decree. The psychic powers were negated to the Astartes not to the Primarchs. So Magnus hadn't broken the Edict.

 

Fouth. Read the punishment (page 356 of ATS). "Woe betide he who ignore my warning..." hard punishment or great problems but not death... also in the following part "I will visit such destruction upon him..." also not I will kill him but he will be wounded or he will lose many important things (like the WB at Monarchia)...

 

Fifth. If Russ received a "kill order" he didn't gave the stop to his fleet in the Prospero's orbit.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

[/quote name=KarkassBC' date='Dec 7 2012, 01:55 AM' post='3255282]

We don't have on print the exact orders by the Emperor but we have a lot of persons, Primarchs and even Regent of Terra, hearing it.

 

I have already posted a page number in a previous post. Read page 157 on Deliverance Lost (printed after ATS and PB). Malcador and Dorn described the Wolves as "over-zealous" and the actions done by Russ as "headstrong". The meaning in a dictionary is complete: headstrong /hed.strɒŋ/ /-strɑŋ/ adjective very determined to do what you want without listening to others.

 

Second Horus described that he managed to change the meaning of the orders to have two loyals Legion destroyed.

 

Third. Read the Decree. The psychic powers were negated to the Astartes not to the Primarchs. So Magnus hadn't broken the Edict.

 

Fouth. Read the punishment (page 356 of ATS). "Woe betide he who ignore my warning..." hard punishment or great problems but not death... also in the following part "I will visit such destruction upon him..." also not I will kill him but he will be wounded or he will lose many important things (like the WB at Monarchia)...

 

Fifth. If Russ received a "kill order" he didn't gave the stop to his fleet in the Prospero's orbit.

 

On 1, yes, you provided a page number that has two beings, not the Emperor, comment on Russ's actions. As they arent the Emperor, their opinion on matters dont matter.

 

On 2, is this in the new HH books, or older material?

 

On 3, read the decree, several times. Did Magnus disband his Legion's Librarius? No, he didnt. Infact his entire Legion employed more and more of their abilities. So page 356 details the penalty of that. Thats pretty much breaking the Edict.

 

On 4, As you or I arent the Emperor, we cannot say for sure what he meant there. Maybe he meant he would orders his Legions against them, maybe he meant he wanted to personally do the trick. We wont know.

 

On 5, what?

 

WLK

[Raven Angel]

First of go back and read your Primarchs words when he thought he was talking to Magnus. Russ sought a "bloodless" solution so we know the Emperor did not give an extreme prejudice order. Russ had leway and didn't have to kill Magnus.

 

Second in False Gods Horus says he sicked Russ on Magnus

 

I don't think the Emperor wanted Magnus dead.

[Arkangilos]

The Emperor wanted Magnus to power his chair because Magnus caused problems with it, and the Emperor had to fix things.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, Magnus DID INDEED stop his legion from using it's powers, UNTIL the Horus Heresy kicked off. IIRC, he broke the rule ONLY to try and stop Horus, and ONLY to warn the Emperor. After that, I seem to recall that he tried shutting down HIS OWN DEFENSES to show that he knew he messed up, and he was ready to pay for it, until he watched the Wolves murder his men. It was ONLY then that he finally decided to fight back.

 

Those are not the actions of a disloyal son. Those are the actions of a son who didn't want to see his father harmed, and was willing to do ANYTHING to stop it, even at his own expense. As said before, there is a difference between disloyal and disobedient.

[Rime]

So at what point does Russ throw himself into the Warp after Magnus? Any old fluff I've read always indicated that he followed Magnus immediately after razing Prospero, leaving The Spear Of Russ (something he was of two minds about if you have read the Ragnar Blackmane Saga) and bringing the untitled 13th Chapter of Space Wolves with him.

[Arkangilos]

So at what point does Russ throw himself into the Warp after Magnus? Any old fluff I've read always indicated that he followed Magnus immediately after razing Prospero, leaving The Spear Of Russ (something he was of two minds about if you have read the Ragnar Blackmane Saga) and bringing the untitled 13th Chapter of Space Wolves with him.

 

I always remember them going back to Terra right afterwords, and then after that they go back to their home where he packs his bags and leaves. I do know it was after the HH, and it has been that way for as long as I remember, but I don't know exactly when afterwords.

[KarkassBC]

First of go back and read your Primarchs words when he thought he was talking to Magnus. Russ sought a "bloodless" solution so we know the Emperor did not give an extreme prejudice order. Russ had leway and didn't have to kill Magnus.

 

Second in False Gods Horus says he sicked Russ on Magnus

 

I don't think the Emperor wanted Magnus dead.

 

Not only in False Gods but also in ATS on page 535 when Ahriman entered the mind of the Rune Priest Wyrdmake:

"He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, ecah spoken with very different purposes, but desigened to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction".

 

For WLK. If you want to use the new wording of Nikaea in ATS you need to consider at the same level this part because it belongs to the same book.

 

For Telanicus. I think the Emperor was aware of the continual use of psychic powers by the normal TS legionnaries. They went back to Prospero and secluded inside but I don't think they remained completely lazy. So probably the Emperor order to Russ come from the use and not from the message, but the lore reported that a lot of characters believed or heard the message. So I'm unsure about this point.

 

For WLK. Malcador was the nearest person to the Emperor and also the main speaker at Nikaea. It's very strange that he didn't talked to the Emperor before Russ about the punishment to the TS. Of course we cannot know for sure but I believe he was aware of the original order.

[DarthMarko]

@KarkassBC please explain me this :

“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”

Magnus nodded and smiled.

“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”

Ahriman waited for Magnus to continue, but the primarch kept his own counsel.

 

 

 

...before you comment embarassing moments...

[KarkassBC]

@KarkassBC please explain me this :

“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”

Magnus nodded and smiled.

“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”

Ahriman waited for Magnus to continue, but the primarch kept his own counsel.

 

 

 

...before you comment embarassing moments...

 

Easy.

I have not said that Magnus didn't have some spies or informants amongst the Wolves. Every Legion keep an eye open on the others. The info came also by Prospero Burn. Page 336"All the Legions run networks of intelligence... but they do it for different reasons..."

 

The question was if Hawser was a spy from Magnus or another "enemy".

Hawser went to Fenris 70 years before Nikaea and remained on stasis. Also as readers we know the end of Prospero Burn when the real "enemy" appeared in front of Hawser and talked to him explaining the "great game" before he tried to kill him.

 

So we know that Hawser wasn't a spy for Magnus, but another clue left to create suspicion between the Legions.

 

Russ on the contrary had the fixed idea that only Magnus was the source of every evil. No matter the explanations made by someone else.

 

What I consider "embarassing moments" is related to this when he received believable explanations from a lowly human in front of his most trusted warriors. And at the end the mighty supehuman being named Russ was easily tricked by the worst traitor in the Imperium history...

[DarthMarko]

Yep, but this explains justified suspicion from Russ...Anyway, IMHO some of the "spies" were double agents (or triple:-),who pranked both Magnus and Russ...

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I would also like to read a new Heresy Wolves Novel where Russ is confronted with Horuses Betrayal & Russ`s mistake.

Though I doubt Russ would feel too bad about Magnus since Russ knows that Magnus & his 1000 Sons are not dead.

As far as Prospero goes: Russ listens to Metallica: No Remorse No Regrets