Why wheren't the Wolves at Isstvan

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I would also like to read a new Heresy Wolves Novel where Russ is confronted with Horuses Betrayal & Russ`s mistake.

Though I doubt Russ would feel too bad about Magnus since Russ knows that Magnus & his 1000 Sons are not dead.

As far as Prospero goes: Russ listens to Metallica: No Remorse No Regrets

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I would also like to read a new Heresy Wolves Novel where Russ is confronted with Horuses Betrayal & Russ`s mistake.

Though I doubt Russ would feel too bad about Magnus since Russ knows that Magnus & his 1000 Sons are not dead.

As far as Prospero goes: Russ listens to Metallica: No Remorse No Regrets

[KarkassBC]

Yep, but this explains justified suspicion from Russ...Anyway, IMHO some of the "spies" were double agents (or triple:-),who pranked both Magnus and Russ...

 

Magnus was unaware of Hawser.

 

I am a constant readers of detective stories (one of my best writers at the moment was Elizabeth George with his series on New Scotland Yard). Maybe I become a little paranoic in reading a lot of these books but in the end I appreciate the different meaning of each word written.

 

When I read Prospero Burn I arrived at the point on page 342 when the Custodes explained to Hawser who really is

"I am Amon of the XV Legion, Captain of the 9th fellowship and Equerry of the Primarch"

... after coming out from a trial in which everyone blamed the XV for putting a spy inside the Space Wolves...

 

Why saying that on Nikaea and before the decision of the Emperor? Which is the benefit for a 100 years old conspiracy to blow up everything without reason... The answer is simple: the info is not true. A confirm was read few pages later when the "Amon" started to lose vapour or consistency when the Silence Sisters arrived. The effect of the warp silence was very different on the TS in ATS... they simple lost the connection to the Warp and they cannot use their powers but no one started to lose coherency like "Amon"...

 

At the end of the event on page 356.

"this will surely influence wahatever decision the Master of Mankind makes"

. This sentence gave to me the exact meaning of the initial speech. Someone (or something) wanted a decision against the psykers at Nikaea.

 

For me it's completely unbelievable to create an hidden operative and before an extremely important decision about the future of the Legion, you show the proof of your treachery.

It's like the old Bond film when the supreme villain showed to Bond the only "red button" able to stop his extremely complex project to instantly conquering the entire world... and saying the classic "Bond you have failed... now I will complete my project and I want that you will be the witness to my triumph... you will not stop me with pushing this red button for overloading the nuclear generators hidden inside my secret base where my entire arrmy of indestructible robot servants await my command order..."

[DarthMarko]

Yep, but this explains justified suspicion from Russ...Anyway, IMHO some of the "spies" were double agents (or triple:-),who pranked both Magnus and Russ...

 

Magnus was unaware of Hawser.

 

I am a constant readers of detective stories one of my best writers at the moment was Elizabeth George with his series on New Scotland Yard. Maybe I become a little paranoic in reading a lot of these books but in the end I appreciate the different meaning of each word written.

 

When I read Prospero Burn I arrived at the point on page 342 when the Custodes explained to Hawser who really is

"I am Amon of the XV Legion, Captain of the 9th fellowship and Equerry of the Primarch"

... after coming out from a trial in which everyone blamed the XV for putting a spy inside the Space Wolves...

 

Why saying that on Nikaea and before the decision of the Emperor? Which is the benefit for a 100 years old conspiracy to blow up everything without reason... The answer is simple: the info is not true. A confirm was read few pages later when the "Amon" started to lose vapour or consistency when the Silence Sisters arrived. The effect of the warp silence was very different on the TS in ATS... they simple lost the connection to the Warp and they cannot use their powers but no one strated to lose coherency like "Amon"...

 

At the end of the event on page 356.

"this will surely influence wahatever decision the Master of Mankind makes"

. This sentence gave to me the exact meaning of the initial speech. Someone (or something) wanted a decision against the psykers at Nikaea.

 

For me it's completely unbelievable to create an hidden operative and before an extremely important decision about the future of the Legion, you show the proof of your treachery.

It's like the old Bond film when the supreme villain showed to Bond the only "red button" able to stop his extremely complex project to instantly conquering the entire world... and saying the classic "Bond you failed... now I will complete my project and I want that you will be the witness to my triumph... you will not stop me with pushing this red button for overloading the nuclear generators hidden inside my secret base where my entire arrmy of indestructible robot servants await my command order..."

Well maybe not Hawser...but Magnus practicaly admited that he has spies in SW(again:

“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”

Magnus nodded and smiled.

“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”

Ahriman waited for Magnus to continue, but the primarch kept his own counsel.

 

) - so why it is hard to belive that chaos has both of them by the nose , and Magnus wasn't pure in all that mess...But I'see your points...

[KarkassBC]

I have answered already in post n.98. I agree that Magnus had some spies on the Wolves, but not Hawser.

I think the Rune Priests sensed the warp taint inside him, but they made a wrong assumption that the link was with Magnus. I would accept that at the time the influence of Chaos or the Warp Gods were not commonly known so they linked to the only possible source known for them. But there were many other possible "enemies"... for example a xeno organization like the Eldar (or Lord Voldemort... no one asked to Hawser to speak in Serpentese?)

 

What I want to stress is the "taint" inside Hawser is a evidence of something/someone working under it but it's not a proof of Magnus involvment...

 

What happened later with the "Amon" affair was a possible contradictory evidence... remember, secrecy is always the best weapon... and not explaining the conspiracy behind him in an unfavourable moment and in the enemy fortress... in latin the word are "cui bono, fecit" (or similar).

[daveNYC]

Setting aside how the Wolves were the 'worst legion evah' /comic book guy My question isn't why the Wolves weren't a Isstvan. I'm wondering just why the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were sent as part of the counterstrike against Horus. You've got a rebellion by four legions, and your force against them includes two legions that are borderline renegade and/or led by a seemingly crazy man. The Word Bearers don't exactly have a spotless record, but at least they've theoretically been under the watch of the Custodes and been behaving.

 

The Wolves at Isstvan question really depends on buying the timeline in The Outcast Dead, and fitting that into the rest of the HH novels is square peg/round hole time.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, the Iron Warriors hadn't really given any evidence whatsoever that they were "borderline renegade", and in my opinion, the inclusion of Night Haunter was almost an apology, kind of a "well, I know we've criticised your methods before, but damn a Legion specialising in that way would be awesome right about now. You were right, your tactics do indeed have a place".

The Night Lords were also a case of, while they were going rogue, they were still technically loyal to the Imperium at that time. They only openly renounced their oaths at Istvaan. Kind of like sending the "bad cop" to go help take down the gang, only for it to turn out that the bad cop was taking bribes.

[DarthMarko]

Well, the Iron Warriors hadn't really given any evidence whatsoever that they were "borderline renegade", and in my opinion, the inclusion of Night Haunter was almost an apology, kind of a "well, I know we've criticised your methods before, but damn a Legion specialising in that way would be awesome right about now. You were right, your tactics do indeed have a place".

The Night Lords were also a case of, while they were going rogue, they were still technically loyal to the Imperium at that time. They only openly renounced their oaths at Istvaan. Kind of like sending the "bad cop" to go help take down the gang, only for it to turn out that the bad cop was taking bribes.

Hm,wasn't Curzes incident (with Dorn, and actions after ) placed him on the renegade role?

[daveNYC]

Hadn't the Iron Warriors nuked Olympia from orbit prior to Isstvan V? I'd think that would have been some sort of red flag. It's just strange that the Emperor found out that four of his legions had gone traitor, including the one led by his most favored son, and the response was to just throw the nearest forces at the problem. As opposed to spending at least a few minutes considering whether or not the Warmaster (!) could have used his postion to spread the rot.

[KarkassBC]

Well, the Iron Warriors hadn't really given any evidence whatsoever that they were "borderline renegade", and in my opinion, the inclusion of Night Haunter was almost an apology, kind of a "well, I know we've criticised your methods before, but damn a Legion specialising in that way would be awesome right about now. You were right, your tactics do indeed have a place".

The Night Lords were also a case of, while they were going rogue, they were still technically loyal to the Imperium at that time. They only openly renounced their oaths at Istvaan. Kind of like sending the "bad cop" to go help take down the gang, only for it to turn out that the bad cop was taking bribes.

Hm,wasn't Curzes incident (with Dorn, and actions after ) placed him on the renegade role?

 

The NL were suspicious more than the IW.

 

Sincerely the IW fought more or less with every other Legions and they didn't have a reputation of untrustworthy or unpredictable. Maybe the IF disliked them but they had an overall positive view.

 

Also in the destruction of Olympia there weren't witnesses, while for Nostramo a fleet of Imperial Fists were late to stop the escape of the Night Haunter but they saw the destruction of the planet.

 

Moreover Dorn was wounded by Curze and a little time before he killed a group of EC and IF with the order to keep him inside his quarters... (Dark King inside Shadows of Treachery)

 

So at the end it was not a group that someone want covering his back...

 

But there is also a little part in Outcast Dead in which Dorn and Malcador remained surprised or worried for the departure of a NL detachment in the Sol system and going to Istvaan V.

[KarkassBC]

But there is also a little part in Outcast Dead in which Dorn and Malcador remained surprised or worried for the departure of a NL detachment in the Sol system and going to Istvaan V.

 

Sorry, wrong. I have check on the book. Page 73.

 

The order for the NL was only for the detachment inside the Sol System (probably composed only by Terran) and not to the entire Legion and absolutely not to the Primarch (Dorn order).

 

But they sent many warning to Corax and Vulcan about the not expected arrival of Curze.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Raven Angel: In the First Heretic (i believe), Magnus talks with Lorgar on how the Emperor is collecting opinions on how to deal with Lorgar. Russ sides with Lorgar, saying he lost enough brothers already.

 

I think that statement, rather than any order, determines why Russ opened talks with what he thought to be Magnus's spy.

 

If the orders had been to pacify rather than kill, then why was this plea made in private, where nobody else could interfere?

 

Horus may have goaded Russ further, but so did Valdor. I believe that a bodyguard of the Emperor wouldnt act in such a manner, unless Russ was questioning the orders (such as killing a brother)

 

@Telanicus: A Thousand Sons has the Legion using their abilities post-Nikea, and contining to train people on Prospero as well (the remembrancer, whats his name? Ahriman's apprentince?)

Also, he may have done the right thing on Prospero, but thats like a murderer stopping a mugger. You already broke the law horribly, no amount of good deeds can fix that.

 

he was disloyal, and paid the price.

 

@Rime: Russ leaves the Wolves and Imperium 197 years after the Emperor's Acension.

 

@KarkassBC: I already touched upon Russ's orders, and agree there's alot of strangeness where Malcador is involved. He is another being I want the HH crew to flesh out more.

 

@DaveNYC: The Iron Warriors were involved as I dont believe the news of Olympia reached Terra yet, so they were thought to be loyal.

the Night Lords were involved not because of any sort of apology, but rather the news that Horus had rebelled and brought a few legions with him outweighed any sort of rivalry. to quote Bad Boys 2, sh!t just got real. anybody who wasnt a traitor for sure was a loyalist, and a weapon against Horus. only afterwards would that belief be shown just how wrong it was.

 

WLK

[daveNYC]

@Raven Angel: In the First Heretic (i believe), Magnus talks with Lorgar on how the Emperor is collecting opinions on how to deal with Lorgar. Russ sides with Lorgar, saying he lost enough brothers already.

 

I think that statement, rather than any order, determines why Russ opened talks with what he thought to be Magnus's spy.

 

If the orders had been to pacify rather than kill, then why was this plea made in private, where nobody else could interfere?

 

...

 

Horus may have goaded Russ further, but so did Valdor. I believe that a bodyguard of the Emperor wouldnt act in such a manner, unless Russ was questioning the orders (such as killing a brother)

 

Because he doesn't want to look weak in front of his men, not to mention that he might have reservations about openly attempting to communicate using some wierd chaos tainted guy they've been dragging around for the past few years.

 

I wouldn't underestimate what a bodyguard, especially ones such as the Custodes, would do to protect their charge. Remember that short story where the Custode was attempting to infiltrate the palace to try and kill the Emperor as a training exercise? He killed some palace construction workers while doing so. It is a stretch, but not impossible to believe that Valdor might believe that his mission to keep the Emperor safe has priority over whatever the Emperor himself is up to, thus causing him to consider Magnus too great a threat to the Emperor to be captured. There's also the point that we know nothing about Valdor and his motivations or where he's going to end up. He might just end up being one of the unsung villians of the Heresy. Plus, 'honeyed words' is a strange phrase. If Russ had been ordered by the Emperor to kill Magnus, then all Valdor would have to do is just stand next to him repeating "You're disobeying orders." over and over,

.

Now what you're saying is that Russ was following the Emperor's orders when he went for the kill at Prospero, and he was actually being a super awesome brother by even attempting to talk Magnus into surrendering.

[Raven Angel]

@Raven Angel: In the First Heretic (i believe), Magnus talks with Lorgar on how the Emperor is collecting opinions on how to deal with Lorgar. Russ sides with Lorgar, saying he lost enough brothers already.

 

I think that statement, rather than any order, determines why Russ opened talks with what he thought to be Magnus's spy.

 

If the orders had been to pacify rather than kill, then why was this plea made in private, where nobody else could interfere?

 

Horus may have goaded Russ further, but so did Valdor. I believe that a bodyguard of the Emperor wouldnt act in such a manner, unless Russ was questioning the orders (such as killing a brother)

 

I am going to disagree here on the point of Valdor's motives. It is clear to me looking at whats been published about them in the books so far their is very little they wouldn't do on their own authority to remove a perceived threat to the Emperor including destroying a whole world. Their is something very ruthless and ignoble about the Castodians and the way they are being portrayed. They seam to be a very ends justify any means kind of group these days. This might be why they play no open role in 40k times. As for Malcador; he is very much a Thufir Hawat kind of guy in all that entails.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@DaveNYC: i see killing a few menial palace workers and attempting to kill a primarch as two different things.

 

and yes, the brotherhood of the primarchs is a big deal to Russ. looking at the pseudo-culture he was raised in, the family unit was greatly valued as was the word of a man. As long as those are kept, you were respected at the very least.

 

@Raven Angel: Interesting point on the Custodes, and one I hope we'll get to see more fleshed out soon.

Thufir Hawat? I only have a small idea of who he is, but after the Outcast Dead that would seem more plausible.

 

WLK

[Raven Angel]

@Raven Angel: Interesting point on the Custodes, and one I hope we'll get to see more fleshed out soon.

Thufir Hawat? I only have a small idea of who he is, but after the Outcast Dead that would seem more plausible.

 

WLK

 

I actually started drawing the parallels after Nemesis. They are after all both masters of assassins.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Raven Angel: Interesting point on the Custodes, and one I hope we'll get to see more fleshed out soon.

Thufir Hawat? I only have a small idea of who he is, but after the Outcast Dead that would seem more plausible.

 

WLK

 

I actually started drawing the parallels after Nemesis. They are after all both masters of assassins.

 

Balls, I meant to say Nemesis...pretend i did in my above post.

 

WLK

[daveNYC]

@DaveNYC: i see killing a few menial palace workers and attempting to kill a primarch as two different things.

 

WLK

 

They're different, of course. But look at it this way, that custode was willing to kill some regular people just doing their jobs (which included improving the palace's defenses) in order to be able to complete his personal training. Extrapolate that ruthlessness to what a custode might be willing to do to safeguard his master from someone whose actions have shown him to be capable of breaching the palace defenses and disobeying a direct order from the Emperor. Prior to Isstvan III, Magnus was the greates potential threat to the Emperor. If Valdor thinks his job is to protect the Emperor from harm, he might believe that he has a better idea how to do that then the Emperor does.

[Arkangilos]

Setting aside how the Wolves were the 'worst legion evah' /comic book guy My question isn't why the Wolves weren't a Isstvan. I'm wondering just why the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were sent as part of the counterstrike against Horus. You've got a rebellion by four legions, and your force against them includes two legions that are borderline renegade and/or led by a seemingly crazy man. The Word Bearers don't exactly have a spotless record, but at least they've theoretically been under the watch of the Custodes and been behaving.

 

The Wolves at Isstvan question really depends on buying the timeline in The Outcast Dead, and fitting that into the rest of the HH novels is square peg/round hole time.

 

 

Alright, so look at it like this.

 

"OH MY GOODNESS! FOUR LEGIONS JUST TURNED AGAINST US!"

 

"What do we have to fight them with? This needs to end now!"

 

"Well, my Lord, most of our legions are operating out of response range. That leaves us with the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Word Bears, and the Alpha Legion."

 

"But the Night Lords are being questioned for their over use of terror! I don't think we should send them!"

 

"Look man! We don't have a choice! The traitors will be dug in, and we already don't have the 3 to 1 superiority required for a proper assault. We can still put the Night Lords on trial when this is done, but as it stands they are still loyal, and their actions have never shown other wise!"

 

"Alright, alright. You are right. However, we will not send the Night Haunter, just a detachment of what they have. What about the Iron Warriors? Didn't they slaughter their home world for rebelling against us?"

 

"What is your point? The World Eaters massacre people, the Night Lords massacre people, and heck, even the Emperor ordered an entire city destroyed just to prove a point to Lorgar. You act as if it is unforgivable to punish those who do not see the Truth. No no, there is nothing disloyal about the Iron Warriors."

 

"Very well, send in everything we've got!"

 

+After the battle+

 

"Huh... didn't see that coming."

[DarthMarko]

^LOL - it was just like that...

[KarkassBC]

Setting aside how the Wolves were the 'worst legion evah' /comic book guy My question isn't why the Wolves weren't a Isstvan. I'm wondering just why the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were sent as part of the counterstrike against Horus. You've got a rebellion by four legions, and your force against them includes two legions that are borderline renegade and/or led by a seemingly crazy man. The Word Bearers don't exactly have a spotless record, but at least they've theoretically been under the watch of the Custodes and been behaving.

 

The Wolves at Isstvan question really depends on buying the timeline in The Outcast Dead, and fitting that into the rest of the HH novels is square peg/round hole time.

 

 

Alright, so look at it like this.

 

"OH MY GOODNESS! FOUR LEGIONS JUST TURNED AGAINST US!"

 

"What do we have to fight them with? This needs to end now!"

 

"Well, my Lord, most of our legions are operating out of response range. That leaves us with the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Word Bears, and the Alpha Legion."

 

"But the Night Lords are being questioned for their over use of terror! I don't think we should send them!"

 

"Look man! We don't have a choice! The traitors will be dug in, and we already don't have the 3 to 1 superiority required for a proper assault. We can still put the Night Lords on trial when this is done, but as it stands they are still loyal, and their actions have never shown other wise!"

 

"Alright, alright. You are right. However, we will not send the Night Haunter, just a detachment of what they have. What about the Iron Warriors? Didn't they slaughter their home world for rebelling against us?"

 

"What is your point? The World Eaters massacre people, the Night Lords massacre people, and heck, even the Emperor ordered an entire city destroyed just to prove a point to Lorgar. You act as if it is unforgivable to punish those who do not see the Truth. No no, there is nothing disloyal about the Iron Warriors."

 

"Very well, send in everything we've got!"

 

+After the battle+

 

"Huh... didn't see that coming."

 

 

Not forget the master plan for the loyalist attack...

 

Corax, Vulkan and you Ferrus, remember to keep your loyals brothers to protect yours back.

 

Don't be worried to have behind you a complete psycopath (Curze). He is happy to fight the traitors... he never obeyed an order but this time that he haven't received one he decided to give you an help... how many stories for a single world destroyed... everyone of us maybe one day has the desire to destroy his homeworld...

Perturabo... yes in the back... when the enemies would closed themselves behind a fortification, he will attack... and even him was allowed to destroy one world of his choice...

Alpharius... why you have problem with him? It's not his fault to be the only one Primarch found by Horus and not by our father... I don't remember if other brother have spoken positively about him, except Horus...

Word Bearers... no again with the old story of Monarchia when the Emperor humiliated him in front of his entire Legion and his most despised brother, saying that everything he has done was for nothing... a Primarch is much superior and he forgot everything...

 

Only in the happy world of Barbie or Winnie the Pooh would happen a situation like this. Not when other brothers have already rebelled... No one have a simple thought they can switch sides if others have already done the same actions. It could be possible at Istvaan III but unbelievable at Istvaan V...

[yhta]

@DaveNYC: i see killing a few menial palace workers and attempting to kill a primarch as two different things.

 

and yes, the brotherhood of the primarchs is a big deal to Russ. looking at the pseudo-culture he was raised in, the family unit was greatly valued as was the word of a man. As long as those are kept, you were respected at the very least.

 

@Raven Angel: Interesting point on the Custodes, and one I hope we'll get to see more fleshed out soon.

Thufir Hawat? I only have a small idea of who he is, but after the Outcast Dead that would seem more plausible.

 

WLK

 

for the custodes there are one simple thing: something to do to protect the emperor. simple

 

also malcador for me looks the necesary bad guy. for me he hides information that the empero not needs to hear until is the right time. i can see all this thing of "use the wolf to spy everyone" something that malcador think with russ without tell the emperor.

 

and the whole magnus tragedy is a dick move of tzeetch. showing what he can do when he is in the mood

[Arkangilos]

Setting aside how the Wolves were the 'worst legion evah' /comic book guy My question isn't why the Wolves weren't a Isstvan. I'm wondering just why the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were sent as part of the counterstrike against Horus. You've got a rebellion by four legions, and your force against them includes two legions that are borderline renegade and/or led by a seemingly crazy man. The Word Bearers don't exactly have a spotless record, but at least they've theoretically been under the watch of the Custodes and been behaving.

 

The Wolves at Isstvan question really depends on buying the timeline in The Outcast Dead, and fitting that into the rest of the HH novels is square peg/round hole time.

 

 

Alright, so look at it like this.

 

"OH MY GOODNESS! FOUR LEGIONS JUST TURNED AGAINST US!"

 

"What do we have to fight them with? This needs to end now!"

 

"Well, my Lord, most of our legions are operating out of response range. That leaves us with the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Word Bears, and the Alpha Legion."

 

"But the Night Lords are being questioned for their over use of terror! I don't think we should send them!"

 

"Look man! We don't have a choice! The traitors will be dug in, and we already don't have the 3 to 1 superiority required for a proper assault. We can still put the Night Lords on trial when this is done, but as it stands they are still loyal, and their actions have never shown other wise!"

 

"Alright, alright. You are right. However, we will not send the Night Haunter, just a detachment of what they have. What about the Iron Warriors? Didn't they slaughter their home world for rebelling against us?"

 

"What is your point? The World Eaters massacre people, the Night Lords massacre people, and heck, even the Emperor ordered an entire city destroyed just to prove a point to Lorgar. You act as if it is unforgivable to punish those who do not see the Truth. No no, there is nothing disloyal about the Iron Warriors."

 

"Very well, send in everything we've got!"

 

+After the battle+

 

"Huh... didn't see that coming."

 

 

Not forget the master plan for the loyalist attack...

 

Corax, Vulkan and you Ferrus, remember to keep your loyals brothers to protect yours back.

 

Don't be worried to have behind you a complete psycopath (Curze). He is happy to fight the traitors... he never obeyed an order but this time that he haven't received one he decided to give you an help... how many stories for a single world destroyed... everyone of us maybe one day has the desire to destroy his homeworld...

Perturabo... yes in the back... when the enemies would closed themselves behind a fortification, he will attack... and even him was allowed to destroy one world of his choice...

Alpharius... why you have problem with him? It's not his fault to be the only one Primarch found by Horus and not by our father... I don't remember if other brother have spoken positively about him, except Horus...

Word Bearers... no again with the old story of Monarchia when the Emperor humiliated him in front of his entire Legion and his most despised brother, saying that everything he has done was for nothing... a Primarch is much superior and he forgot everything...

 

Only in the happy world of Barbie or Winnie the Pooh would happen a situation like this. Not when other brothers have already rebelled... No one have a simple thought they can switch sides if others have already done the same actions. It could be possible at Istvaan III but unbelievable at Istvaan V...

 

The only thing with that though, is that ALL of the legions were supposed to deploy at the same time. Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus just CHOSE to attack early. The rest I don't really understand? Up until that point, Alpharius didn't have a bad record (and the only thing negative I remember another primarch saying to him was that Roboute said that his tactics were unorthodox. No one else ever said anything about him to my knowledge). Again, the Night Haunter was not there, and the Night Lords were not necessarily on trial yet. The Word Bearers had improved, so everyone thought they were better, and the ONLY thing that Perturabo did that was "wrong" was kill massacre the traitors on his home world, which wasn't even that bad compared to some of the other things that have happened.

 

Honestly, without our 20/20 hindsight, I fail to see how that team wasn't a bad choice. Your only other option is to do NOTHING. And had they done that (with our 20/20 vision), they would have been on Terra, *inside* the walls, and we would have already lost.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Setting aside how the Wolves were the 'worst legion evah' /comic book guy My question isn't why the Wolves weren't a Isstvan. I'm wondering just why the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were sent as part of the counterstrike against Horus. You've got a rebellion by four legions, and your force against them includes two legions that are borderline renegade and/or led by a seemingly crazy man. The Word Bearers don't exactly have a spotless record, but at least they've theoretically been under the watch of the Custodes and been behaving.

 

The Wolves at Isstvan question really depends on buying the timeline in The Outcast Dead, and fitting that into the rest of the HH novels is square peg/round hole time.

 

 

Alright, so look at it like this.

 

"OH MY GOODNESS! FOUR LEGIONS JUST TURNED AGAINST US!"

 

"What do we have to fight them with? This needs to end now!"

 

"Well, my Lord, most of our legions are operating out of response range. That leaves us with the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Word Bears, and the Alpha Legion."

 

"But the Night Lords are being questioned for their over use of terror! I don't think we should send them!"

 

"Look man! We don't have a choice! The traitors will be dug in, and we already don't have the 3 to 1 superiority required for a proper assault. We can still put the Night Lords on trial when this is done, but as it stands they are still loyal, and their actions have never shown other wise!"

 

"Alright, alright. You are right. However, we will not send the Night Haunter, just a detachment of what they have. What about the Iron Warriors? Didn't they slaughter their home world for rebelling against us?"

 

"What is your point? The World Eaters massacre people, the Night Lords massacre people, and heck, even the Emperor ordered an entire city destroyed just to prove a point to Lorgar. You act as if it is unforgivable to punish those who do not see the Truth. No no, there is nothing disloyal about the Iron Warriors."

 

"Very well, send in everything we've got!"

 

+After the battle+

 

"Huh... didn't see that coming."

 

 

Not forget the master plan for the loyalist attack...

 

Corax, Vulkan and you Ferrus, remember to keep your loyals brothers to protect yours back.

 

Don't be worried to have behind you a complete psycopath (Curze). He is happy to fight the traitors... he never obeyed an order but this time that he haven't received one he decided to give you an help... how many stories for a single world destroyed... everyone of us maybe one day has the desire to destroy his homeworld...

Perturabo... yes in the back... when the enemies would closed themselves behind a fortification, he will attack... and even him was allowed to destroy one world of his choice...

Alpharius... why you have problem with him? It's not his fault to be the only one Primarch found by Horus and not by our father... I don't remember if other brother have spoken positively about him, except Horus...

Word Bearers... no again with the old story of Monarchia when the Emperor humiliated him in front of his entire Legion and his most despised brother, saying that everything he has done was for nothing... a Primarch is much superior and he forgot everything...

 

Only in the happy world of Barbie or Winnie the Pooh would happen a situation like this. Not when other brothers have already rebelled... No one have a simple thought they can switch sides if others have already done the same actions. It could be possible at Istvaan III but unbelievable at Istvaan V...

 

The only thing with that though, is that ALL of the legions were supposed to deploy at the same time. Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus just CHOSE to attack early. The rest I don't really understand? Up until that point, Alpharius didn't have a bad record (and the only thing negative I remember another primarch saying to him was that Roboute said that his tactics were unorthodox. No one else ever said anything about him to my knowledge). Again, the Night Haunter was not there, and the Night Lords were not necessarily on trial yet. The Word Bearers had improved, so everyone thought they were better, and the ONLY thing that Perturabo did that was "wrong" was kill massacre the traitors on his home world, which wasn't even that bad compared to some of the other things that have happened.

 

Honestly, without our 20/20 hindsight, I fail to see how that team wasn't a bad choice. Your only other option is to do NOTHING. And had they done that (with our 20/20 vision), they would have been on Terra, *inside* the walls, and we would have already lost.

 

And from what i remember reading, Corax cautioned the 3 Legions to wait for the other 4, but Manus (who was in overall command) forced the attack.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

And from what i remember reading, Corax cautioned the 3 Legions to wait for the other 4, but Manus (who was in overall command) forced the attack.

 

WLK

 

Yeah, that :o