Help with Chosen

[ebssgd]

I run a unit of Chosen in a list that utilizes Huron's infiltrate ability. The unit is Chosen x 7, plasmagun x 5, VotLW. Am I cramming too many plasmaguns or using too few bodies? I am just wondering if this unit is a good idea? Any help would be appreciated.

[techsoldaten]

I run a unit of Chosen in a list that utilizes Huron's infiltrate ability. The unit is Chosen x 7, plasmagun x 5, VotLW. Am I cramming too many plasmaguns or using too few bodies? I am just wondering if this unit is a good idea? Any help would be appreciated.

I would say no to the first question, this sounds like a solid unit to me. You may want to get more bodies to increase their survivability, or give them MoN. But I have seen the same / similar in a lot of lists and am pretty confident in it.

 

One thing I saw someone do with this setup was to put their infiltrated Chosen in a Rhino then drive up right in front of a Warboss to put him down. The presence of the Rhino made it impossible for his opponent to counter attack the Chosen the next round.

[the jeske]

you should never upgrade fire type units more then the minimum number of models you actualy want . for chosen you want 5 and never more . It doesnt matter what you do with them , if you give them a rhino , infiltrate them in to ruins etc. If your playing against a good player the unit is dead in max 1-2 turns . otherwise it would do too much damge to the opposing army. this makes it not worth to upgrade them with anything else then the plasmas , because to actualy make them survive you would need like 12-14 models and even that would just make it easier for your opponent to focus fire them.

 

never expact them to have more then 1-2 shoting phases [sometimes not even that] . those 1-2 turns and drawing away some fire/counter units is what you invest for . If you want something that will stand a long time take stuff like 8 MoT or MoN termis and not chosen .

[minigun762]

I run a unit of Chosen in a list that utilizes Huron's infiltrate ability. The unit is Chosen x 7, plasmagun x 5, VotLW. Am I cramming too many plasmaguns or using too few bodies? I am just wondering if this unit is a good idea? Any help would be appreciated.

 

With throw away squads, I agree with the jeske. Keep them cheap and small. Minimize your investment because you're going to lose it.

 

I'd actual consider dropping VotLW and rely on everyone having LD9.

[RolandTHTG]

I use 5 chosen, 5 plasma, VotLW, Nurgle in a Huron list. They often make an unpleasant surprise for my opponent. I only Infiltrate them about half the time, as they can be a good termi-ward by following your main force up the battlefield. As Jeskes said, if you infiltrate them, only expect them to last 1-2 turns, they're just too dangerous to be allowed to live in the enemies' back lines.

 

For a small force like this, where you want them to stay close to the enemy, but 1-2 casualties can force a LD test, you should be taking VotLW. You reduce the chance of failing the test by 50%, from 7/36 to 3/36.

[minigun762]

I use 5 chosen, 5 plasma, VotLW, Nurgle in a Huron list. They often make an unpleasant surprise for my opponent. I only Infiltrate them about half the time, as they can be a good termi-ward by following your main force up the battlefield. As Jeskes said, if you infiltrate them, only expect them to last 1-2 turns, they're just too dangerous to be allowed to live in the enemies' back lines.

 

For a small force like this, where you want them to stay close to the enemy, but 1-2 casualties can force a LD test, you should be taking VotLW. You reduce the chance of failing the test by 50%, from 7/36 to 3/36.

 

I normally love me some VotLW, but with it being more expensive on chosen and they all already having LD9 I don't think its mandatory. Frankly, I think the squad will get blasted off the table before it has to make too many LD checks.

 

That said, it is only 10 points and its not a bad buy by any means.

[nurglez]

I thought you had to have 6 chosen in order to have 5 plasma due to the champion? I'd go 6 and put a combi plasma on the champion too for a 12 shot str 7 ap2 alpha strike :)

[Kol Saresk]

I thought you had to have 6 chosen in order to have 5 plasma due to the champion? I'd go 6 and put a combi plasma on the champion too for a 12 shot str 7 ap2 alpha strike :)

You got it right(I think). It could be argued that the Chosen Champion is still a Chosen so he can fit into the "One Chosen may replace his boltgun with one of the following:" bit on page 96, but I wouldn't so six Chosen it would have to be.

[RolandTHTG]

I thought you had to have 6 chosen in order to have 5 plasma due to the champion? I'd go 6 and put a combi plasma on the champion too for a 12 shot str 7 ap2 alpha strike :)

You got it right(I think). It could be argued that the Chosen Champion is still a Chosen so he can fit into the "One Chosen may replace his boltgun with one of the following:" bit on page 96, but I wouldn't so six Chosen it would have to be.

Nope, look at the solid bullet point above that option. "four models may choose on of the following 4 options". You just make the champ one of those 4 models, then you have a chosen free for the chosen-only slot that you quoted

[tvih]

While technically currently the wording sort of allows it, I think it's pretty much intended that the champ can't take the plasma gun as these things go.

 

But regardless, the champion could just take combi-plasma instead. If you're expecting them to die early anyway, one-shot only isn't so bad :) And this way you have 6 rapid-fire plasmas, not just 5!

[Bonzi]

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

[tvih]

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

Probably due to heavy support slots being used up by heavy weapons units like Predators, long-range Havocs and Obliterators?

[Spaz431]

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

Probably due to heavy support slots being used up by heavy weapons units like Predators, long-range Havocs and Obliterators?

 

Or actually the fact that Havocs cannot take plasma cannons. Or that plasma guns only shoot 24". When auto cannons & heavy bolsters shoot 36" and can do most of the same.

[Lepaca]

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

 

Like the others have said:

Our HS slots are valueable. Our elite slots are not.

[Kol Saresk]

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

 

Like the others have said:

Our HS slots are valueable. Our elite slots are not.

Ironically.

[Bonzi]

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

Probably due to heavy support slots being used up by heavy weapons units like Predators, long-range Havocs and Obliterators?

 

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

 

Like the others have said:

Our HS slots are valueable. Our elite slots are not.

 

 

Of course! How could I forget that everyone plays the exact same way and that everyone always has their Heavy Support maxed out. I mean, I must have gouged my eyes out so I failed to see that every single list in the Army List subforum has maxed HS. I am shamed to have strayed outside of dogma for the purposes of offering alternative thoughts.

 

If you want cheap suicide plasma unit why not take 5 Havocs with 4 plasma guns? Why spend points on the chosen goodies if they are just going to get shot and die the same as a cheaper havoc would?

Probably due to heavy support slots being used up by heavy weapons units like Predators, long-range Havocs and Obliterators?

 

Or actually the fact that Havocs cannot take plasma cannons. Or that plasma guns only shoot 24". When auto cannons & heavy bolsters shoot 36" and can do most of the same.

 

I know right? I can't believe that I mentioned that Havocs could have plasma cannons! My denial is so deep I can't even see where I said it when I read my old post. And plasma guns only shooting 24"? NO WAY!? Havoc plasma guns are so different from Chosen plasma guns which can shoot all the way up to 24"! I'm so glad we established that and the fact that there are other guns that can be taken by Havocs! I can't believe how I failed to address that in a post regarding how to kit out plasma suicide units.

 

It's as if I was commenting on the fact that Chosen are more expensive for a suicide unit than Havocs and are no more survivable to shooting in spite of it...but that I wrote it in such a way that peoples knee-jerk reaction made them miss the point.

[Hazath]

I find that 5 men plasma chosens die bit too quick.

 

Maybe I should try with Abbadon, and take 3 x 10 chosens with 5 plasma guns each lol.

 

@Bonzai. I see your point regarding cheaper suicide unit... but man, relax. People are just pointing out better uses for heavy slots.

[Excessus]

Personally I would never use my heavy slots in a suicide misison, they are too valuable for that in a codex that is already short on long range shooting... (and no, 24" is not long range)

[Bonzi]

Personally I would never use my heavy slots in a suicide misison, they are too valuable for that in a codex that is already short on long range shooting... (and no, 24" is not long range)

 

It is a simplistic way of looking at it. The Havocs being 'heavy support' doesn't automatically make them too 'valuable' for the job of suicide. If your list is maxed out on heavy support and your style relies on the range then yes, they are too 'valuable' for the role. However, not everyone maxes out their HS slots (I don't think I've seen a single list with 6 HS choices @ 2K+) and in such cases it is a more effective use of points to take a squad of suicide havocs than chosen.

 

Value is determined by points cost vs supply vs assigned role. In this instance, value is not intrinsic to the HS slot but rather a function of army build and utility. To keep trumpeting the value of Chaos HS slots as a fixed thing is to fail to understand how differing builds or play styles can work.

[Excessus]

Personally I would never use my heavy slots in a suicide misison, they are too valuable for that in a codex that is already short on long range shooting... (and no, 24" is not long range)

 

It is a simplistic way of looking at it. The Havocs being 'heavy support' doesn't automatically make them too 'valuable' for the job of suicide. If your list is maxed out on heavy support and your style relies on the range then yes, they are too 'valuable' for the role. However, not everyone maxes out their HS slots (I don't think I've seen a single list with 6 HS choices @ 2K+) and in such cases it is a more effective use of points to take a squad of suicide havocs than chosen.

 

Value is determined by points cost vs supply vs assigned role. In this instance, value is not intrinsic to the HS slot but rather a function of army build and utility. To keep trumpeting the value of Chaos HS slots as a fixed thing is to fail to understand how differing builds or play styles can work.

Not quite so simplistic as you'd think though. I was mainly talking about battles below 2k points, as I mostly play those. But even above those, a havoc scuad with plasmas and a rhino is quite expensive and easily killed compared to a heldrake that cost just as much. You do not only have six HS slots, but six FA slots as well, and those have a similar importance to the former...but in another way.

 

But you can't get away from the fact that you need some heavy hitting long range firepower, especially against things like psyflemen/psycannon spam and/or ig parking lots, or fliers...and the higher points, the more you need because your opponent takes more of his things as well...

[Bonzi]

Personally I would never use my heavy slots in a suicide misison, they are too valuable for that in a codex that is already short on long range shooting... (and no, 24" is not long range)

 

It is a simplistic way of looking at it. The Havocs being 'heavy support' doesn't automatically make them too 'valuable' for the job of suicide. If your list is maxed out on heavy support and your style relies on the range then yes, they are too 'valuable' for the role. However, not everyone maxes out their HS slots (I don't think I've seen a single list with 6 HS choices @ 2K+) and in such cases it is a more effective use of points to take a squad of suicide havocs than chosen.

 

Value is determined by points cost vs supply vs assigned role. In this instance, value is not intrinsic to the HS slot but rather a function of army build and utility. To keep trumpeting the value of Chaos HS slots as a fixed thing is to fail to understand how differing builds or play styles can work.

Not quite so simplistic as you'd think though. I was mainly talking about battles below 2k points, as I mostly play those. But even above those, a havoc scuad with plasmas and a rhino is quite expensive and easily killed compared to a heldrake that cost just as much. You do not only have six HS slots, but six FA slots as well, and those have a similar importance to the former...but in another way.

 

But you can't get away from the fact that you need some heavy hitting long range firepower, especially against things like psyflemen/psycannon spam and/or ig parking lots, or fliers...and the higher points, the more you need because your opponent takes more of his things as well...

 

Your points are valid but they ignore the entire point of the OP which is plasma suicide. All of my points that I'm making are in reference to that frame. I'm not touting plasma suicide Havocs as the best thing since sliced cheese or the best use of a HS slot (I don't even use them myself and my own HS slots are full up). My one and only point I have been trying to make is that if you want plasma suicide, Haovs can do it cheaper than Chosen. I am not saying you should bump a different HS choice that your army needs in order to take this unit, I'm pointing it out as an option that somebody may have missed when they were designing an outflanking plasma suicide unit. This all starts with the basic assumption that the OP wants a plasma suicide unit and flows from there. Overall? Yes, there are better ways to spend the points but a Huron outflanking plasma squad is a valid tactic and can be quite effective and Havocs could fulfill the role more cheaply than Chosen if you have the slots available.

 

I don't understand the contention I am getting on making a point that is fairly obvious and straightforward. I know the Chaos forums have devolved into a cliquish 'my way or the highway' style of beating others over the head with 'advise' but I don't see the wrong in speaking of options, even if they are not the one and only way that all Chaos must be played for all eternity because a voice of authority says so.

[the jeske]

because if you took havocks, then they are long range ? you should never do suicide plasma havocks, because the points difference between a chosen unit and havocks units is minimal , but losing 1 long range support slot [when we dont have any other unless we run IG ally] affects our ability a lot ?

 

there is nothing missed , the hvy slots are full and if someone wants a plasma unit , then he has to take chosen . there is no other way .

[Excessus]

I don't understand the contention I am getting on making a point that is fairly obvious and straightforward. I know the Chaos forums have devolved into a cliquish 'my way or the highway' style of beating others over the head with 'advise' but I don't see the wrong in speaking of options, even if they are not the one and only way that all Chaos must be played for all eternity because a voice of authority says so.

Whoa whoa whoa, who on this forum has ever forced you to play with something? It's not like we come to your club and beat you up if you don't equip your havocs with autocannons!

 

I can only reference to what I think and I do, nothing else. It is entirely up to you to build a list you like and play with it. Heck, I use many units that are sub-par, but I know they are that...I use them anyway though because they are cool! :o

[King Willy]

@Bonzai

It feels like a bit of a hold over from the last codex, which was notoriously boring, we were forced into one optimal build which got nerfed by the lash FAQ.

even in friendly games it was hard to get a good win in, not due to any randomness or crap units, but because there was really only a few decent builds that were often very easy to counter, especially as the book aged and the newer books dropped.

 

On another note, they make sense in that Havocs a better served taking the heavy weapons, they are the only cheap infantry unit in the dex that can take multiple heavy weapons, in the average sized 1000 to 1999 pt game it's hard to get a good amount of high strength shots down a long range, ACs and MLs do that very well and taking four for less then 150 is a good bargain, consider what they can do with that fire power.

 

Turn 1 both weapons can get a first blood kill by knocking out transports, only land raiders, monoliths and ghost arks are gonna give you trouble, but there is better ways to kill them.

They can also be turned on infantry for messy results, crippling squads or forcing them back with leadership tests.

 

Later turns, the range gives them another turn of shooting to support your bolter marines or lock down other heavy weapons squads, both weapons can cause instant death for killing Guard Teams and wound on twos against Devs.

 

When points get up and you may need a chosen or termi squad to spearhead your assaults a suicide Havoc squad will be what your looking for but till then Termis and Chosen a better options for small suicide units.

[Brother Amarel]

I don't understand the contention I am getting on making a point that is fairly obvious and straightforward. I know the Chaos forums have devolved into a cliquish 'my way or the highway' style of beating others over the head with 'advise' but I don't see the wrong in speaking of options, even if they are not the one and only way that all Chaos must be played for all eternity because a voice of authority says so.

I don't know if it's quite that bad yet, but there does seem to be a touch of people losing perspective.

 

Jeske has covered the issue with the explanation now, but to put numbers to it:

 

5 x Chosen with 5 x Plasma Guns = 165pts and an Elite slot.

5 x Havocs with 4 x Plasma Guns = 135pts and a Heavy slot.

 

For a Plasmacide unit, 5 Plasma is better than 4 (although the Havocs could add a Combi-Plas to the AC) and for CSM the value of a Heavy slot is greater than that of an Elite slot. If you're not using all your Heavy slots and want to save points, then go for it - exploring different options should always be encouraged and advice should always be welcomed.