Traitor Primarchs - Their Downfalls

[Hasphexia]

I'm a bit behind on sitting down and reading the books but I've kept up with the general reviews and storylines, and I've started thinking about what flaw, character trait or turning point happened to each traitor Primarch that pushed them to break away from the Imperium? Just as a compilation to see how the storylines for each character treads their downfalls.

 

 

Lorgar - Manifest Destiny

 

Lorgar almost feels like he was *born* to be the door handle in to the Primarch family for the Chaos Gods, and that out of all the others he was planned the most for all along. Seeing as he's especially religiously devout I think he truly believes there is "a plan" for him and everybody else, and when the Emperor, or his god, has forsaken him he turns elsewhere to find the true meaning of his existence, and is happy to believe in stories of his destiny and greatness carved in to the future by Gods who need him to be that instigator for them. He's a true character of faith, first faith in the Emperor followed by faith in the Chaos Gods, and then faith in himself. He really turns around and makes changes as his story has gone on, as the "runt" of the Primarchs becomes the integral start point of the Heresy, and growing in to a leading face in the Traitor pack, becoming a powerful and reassured connection to the warp. A destiny to be there spiritual "champion".

 

 

Anyway I could type my own character theories all day, but I'm more interested in how others see the falls from grace playing out?

[Billuriye]

Magnus - Inherited a botched legion, had to resort bargaining with Tzeentch to fix it from the start, only postponed the inevitable, got comfortable and too sure of himself during good times, made huge mistakes due to his pride and also loyalty, learned that he was just a puppet of Tzeentch along with his legion, got pushed into extinction. Only became a traitor due to desperation.

 

Fulgrim - Also inherited a botched legion, had to constantly make up for his limited numbers. That combining with his quest for perfection, became an unattainable obsession. Got his mind poisoned by a daemon, turned traitor.

 

Perturabo - Became disillusioned with constant garrison duties and the most back breaking, glory deprived crappy jobs, he received. Thought his talents were squandered. Pushed into extreme by Olympian rebellion, committed a genocide. Feelings of guilt and fear of punishment drove him to treason.

 

Horus - Was accustomed to get what he wanted. Granted with great station also crushing responsibility. Already an ambitious and prideful man, he despised the fact that daddy left him for disclosed reasons and that he can't make war without considering menial tasks. Became more open to manipulation by Erebus. Got comatosed, ensnared by Chaos in his deathbed turned traitor.

[Bulwyf]

Am I correct in thinking in the HH timeline we've seen from BL that Fulgrim had already turned traitor before Horus decided to do so?

[Billuriye]

Am I correct in thinking in the HH timeline we've seen from BL that Fulgrim had already turned traitor before Horus decided to do so?

 

Horus convinced Fulgrim to turn traitor. Lorgar>Horus>Angron>Fulgrim>Mortarion goes the timeline.

[Dammeron]

Like most thing sin the 40K universe, the truth seems far from simple, and has become even more complicated thanks to the HH books.

 

Let's look at Lorgar for a moment as an example:

 

Lorgar demonstrated from the outset a proclivity to seek metaphysical meaning in a universe that seemed set to deny it. Whether this was something genetically ingrained or a result of his raising on Colchis -which consisted of heavily religious cultures- or a combination of the two is difficult to determine.

 

This proclivity determined his eventual reaction to the coming of the Emperor and the revelation of his true nature. This in turn informed the manner in which he went about manifesting his perceived purpose with regards to the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth. His need (which verged on the neurotic) for proscribed, metaphysical self definition, not only on a personal but also species wide scale, is what eventually brought him into conflict with both the other Primarchs and the Emperor. Neither were poised to provide what he presumed he required, or to fulfil the philosophy that determined his sense of self.

 

The Emperor's reaction and the means of his censure also play a profound part. Arguably, were the Emperor half way as insightful and intelligent as he is marketed, he would have noted the factors acting upon Lorgar and determined their eventual manifestation from the outset, and taken steps to direct and transform them, rather than allowing him to do things one way one moment, then coming down on him like a proverbial apocalypse from on high the next. The Emperor could have easily taken steps to subtly alter Lorgar's requirement for proscribed purpose and poetry into a fervent belief in the secularism of Imperial Truth. Furthermore, he could have very easily tailored his rebuke to manipulate Lorgar's response, given how supremely intelligent he is marketed. Instead, he does the worst thing possible; rips down Lorgar's internal cathedral; the sense of self he has spent an entire lifetime constructing, and in that one ill considered response, sparks the eventual inferno of Lorgar's treachery.

 

The factors involved in Lorgar's fall from grace (or ascension to divine truth, given where you happen to stand) are manifold, complex and ambiguous, as they are for all of the Primarchs. One could also make a similar analysis of the factors that inform the loyalist's primarch's remaining loyal, which would be no less flattering.

 

Lorgar is also an interesting example in that, if anyone could be said to have come out of the Heresy well, it's him. In effect, he got everything he wanted out of it; revelation of a state of true metaphysics, where truly divine entities dwell, who are ready and willing to provide everything he believes humanity requires, but will also allow him to ascend to their state as an immortal avatar or angel of truth; a living manifestation of all that is fundamentally correct in the universe. And he does just that, the centuries that follow seeing the utter corruption and degeneration of everything his Father originally stood for, and a universal series of wars that help to feed and inform the "truth" of Chaos that he has come to represent.

 

Others that come out of their purported "treachery" extremely well are: Fulgrim, Angron, Mortarion and arguably even Night Haunter, whose martyrdom is the pinnacle of all he ever existed to demonstrate.

[DarthMarko]

Fulgrim - vanity

Horus - My father is the best, oooo wait I want to kill him for abandoning me (I'm still puzzeled)

Lorgar - fanatism and he was a spoiled brat

Perturabo - envy,fear

Magnus - uga,buga Tzeench + hubris

Angron - only one who did have a cause, but in the end did it for the wrong reasons (lot's of killing)

[Emperor's Furor]

It's suggested Mortarion turned because he began to see the Emperor as a Tyrant in the similar form that his adopted father was.

[Nehekhare]

Each and every one of them rebelled because they were betrayed by the Emperor.

 

Lorgar was chastized for seeing a divine truth the emperor tried to suppress.

Horus was cast away like a blunt instrument when the crusade was over.

Fulgrim was denied perfection and pressed to turn on his most beloved brother.

Angron was deprived of his honorable last stand, watching his brothers die.

Mortarion was denied his revenge and thrown into the meat grinder.

Magnus was punished for nothing but exploring the powers he was given.

Perturabo was underestimated, a visionary used as a battering ram.

Night Haunter was left in the dark, shunned and assassinated out of fear.

Alpharius/Omegon suffered constant oppression from their idiot bully brother and chose to act for the greater good when they learned the truth about the emperor's racist genocidal schemes.

 

Finally, the mechanicum was tricked into providing the ressources for the emperor's conquest by assuming the same mantle of divinity that Lorgar was punished for acknowledging. Free thought and Creativity were criminalized, as was the truth behind the imperial propaganda.

 

why did they rebel? Because they had to do what their hearts knew was right, while their lesser nine brothers failed to do that, and thus betrayed themselves as well as all mankind.

[Lepaca]

Magnus - Inherited a botched legion, had to resort bargaining with Tzeentch to fix it from the start, only postponed the inevitable, got comfortable and too sure of himself during good times, made huge mistakes due to his pride and also loyalty, learned that he was just a puppet of Tzeentch along with his legion, got pushed into extinction. Only became a traitor due to desperation.

 

Yes Magnus' fate was sealed the moment he made that Faustian deal with Tzeentch to save his sons. Makes him one of the most tragic figures in the 40k universe I think. :huh:

 

Lorgar is also an interesting example in that, if anyone could be said to have come out of the Heresy well, it's him. In effect, he got everything he wanted out of it; revelation of a state of true metaphysics, where truly divine entities dwell, who are ready and willing to provide everything he believes humanity requires, but will also allow him to ascend to their state as an immortal avatar or angel of truth; a living manifestation of all that is fundamentally correct in the universe. And he does just that, the centuries that follow seeing the utter corruption and degeneration of everything his Father originally stood for, and a universal series of wars that help to feed and inform the "truth" of Chaos that he has come to represent.

 

Very true. As I've stated in another topic before:

 

The more I think about it the more I wonder if maybe Lorgar is the most powerful of all the Primarchs? He was afterall the first (and real) chosen of the entire pantheon who embraced Chaos willingly. While Horus was undoubtedly also immensly powerful he was no true believer and might have "only" been a tool. Plus the Gods allowed Horus to die while they made sure that Lorgar ascended to daemonhood.

 

Others that come out of their purported "treachery" extremely well are: Fulgrim, Angron, Mortarion and arguably even Night Haunter, whose martyrdom is the pinnacle of all he ever existed to demonstrate.

 

Agreeing again. Maybe except for Mortarion but I'm not really sure about him.

[Hasphexia]

It's suggested Mortarion turned because he began to see the Emperor as a Tyrant in the similar form that his adopted father was.

 

 

Do he have any really good info on Mortarion in the books yet? Him and Perturabo always seemed to be the two that needed fleshing out the most.

[Emperor's Furor]

It's suggested Mortarion turned because he began to see the Emperor as a Tyrant in the similar form that his adopted father was.

 

 

Do he have any really good info on Mortarion in the books yet? Him and Perturabo always seemed to be the two that needed fleshing out the most.

 

Just the opinion of a traitor Death Guard Chaplain from the short story Echoes of Old Night in the Games day Anthology who thinks about what's happened and recollects it was the Emperor who saved Mortarion, but whose going to save him now. This is where the idea that Mortarion turned traitor due to the possibility he now saw the Emperor as no better than his traitor adopted father.

[Veteran Sergeant]

why did they rebel? Because they had to do what their hearts knew was right, while their lesser nine brothers failed to do that, and thus betrayed themselves as well as all mankind.

:lol:

 

Bravo. Funniest post in this thread.

 

Lorgar was mentally weak, and emotionally vulnerable. He desired acceptance and validation so much. All he wanted was to be accepted by his Father, and when the Emperor rejected his worship, it shattered him. Left him an easy target for the lies of the Ruinous Powers, who were more than willing to tell him whatever he wanted to hear. They manipulated his profound sense of rejection, and manipulated his misplaced hatred of Guilliman. Some of this was the Emperor's fault. The Emperor definitely miscalculated how weak Lorgar was. But he was also way too heavy handed. Part of that I think was overly melodramatic writing of that scene in the novel, sadly. Regardless, Lorgar became the first champion of Chaos because he was the easiest target.

 

 

Horus was too proud. I am not sure I like the way the novels have painted his corruption as being more accidental than clear choice. Getting stabbed by the Chaos Knife just seems kinda... lame.

 

Angryon was angry. He's a cardstock, two-dimensional villain. The more we learn about him, the less it makes sense that the Emperor ever let him run a legion, lol. BL could have gone a better direction with him, honestly. As it stands, he's still just really angry and an uncontrollable psychopath with flimsy motivations. He turned because he's angry. Should have spent as little time talking about him as possible. A terribly uninteresting character. He's angry. Horus tells him it would be sweet to be angry at the Emperor, he says yes, Isstvan happens. That's all we need to know. Angron is like a time travel movie, or a zombie movie. The less explaining you do, the more it makes sense.

 

On the other hand, I kinda like what they did with Magnus. His motivations seem fairly clear. He was in a tough position, but like all of his brothers, he was foolish and arrogant, and put himself in a position where he was forced to turn traitor. Ultimately though, I think they made his story too complex. He would have eventually been put into a bad place even if he hadn't broken the Emperor's Webway Toy, which sorta lessens the impact of his fatal mistake.

 

Fulgrim was also arrogant and foolish. I thought they handled him fairly well too.

 

We don't really know much about the ultimate motivations of the others so far. Alpharius, it seems obvious, creats so many silly, overly complex, functionally impossible plans, and gets trapped within the layers, and mistakenly chooses to side with Horus because his own twin brother infiltrates the Alpha Legion disguised as himself and convinces him to, believing himself to be an agent of the Word Bearers acting as a double agent for the Slaan.

[Visitor13]

Angron is like a time travel movie, or a zombie movie. The less explaining you do, the more it makes sense.

 

Applicable to most of the other traitor primarchs too.

 

Angron turned because he was angry.

 

Fulgrim turned because he was a party animal.

 

Magnus turned because he was a sorcerer.

 

Lorgar turned because he was a priest.

 

Alpharius turned because he was shifty.

 

Curze turned because he was nuts.

 

Perurabo turned because he was the assault siegemaster (read tormentor and killer of millions) as opposed to Dorn, a defence siegemaster (read saviour of millions)

 

Mortarion turned because he was stinky.

 

Horus turned because no one else had the clout to unite all of the above.

 

 

I'd say Chaos went for the lowest hanging fruit, except that wouldn't really be accurate. Chaos didn't have to go for anything; the Emperor pretty much tossed those guys into Chaos's maw by ignoring the jumbo-sized warning signs on pretty much all of the above. Angron was just the tip of the mountain of skulls.

[Billuriye]

Mortarion turned because he was stinky.

 

:lol:

[yhta]

"Some of this was the Emperor's fault. The Emperor definitely miscalculated how weak Lorgar was"

 

no. he miscalculated how loyal lorgar was. he treat him like a guardsman who can push everything he wants and then expect blind loyalty without to see the fact that his belivie in the god emperor was the reason that he was so loyal. like visitor13 say. he just throw him to the chaos gods

 

"Horus was too proud. I am not sure I like the way the novels have painted his corruption as being more accidental than clear choice. Getting stabbed by the Chaos Knife just seems kinda... lame"

 

Horus was the warmaster and he want to be better that they alredy were. not only winning battles but even came peace and avoid war(yeah. the warmaster want avoid war) but then the accident of the false terra,the interex and davin happens and more thant everything you have erebus whispering in his ear.

 

and with magnus. he fate was alredy seal the momento tzeetch want him. and knowing tzeetch that probabily was eons after everything happens. chaos at work

[Nehekhare]

Bravo.

yeah funny how everything allows for another opinion that is equally true, but still people react by restating their own perspective with yet more emphasis ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don't see all the Chaos turned Primarchs as inherently evil in the beginning... The Emperor made some major mistakes along the way to being slaved to the Golden Throne. The Emperor took both Angron and Mortarion from their home worlds without ending the conflicts there that both had spent their lives up to then to right... The conflicts on both worlds could have easily been resolved by the might of the Emperor.

 

Magnus had his heart in the right place... Sure he screwed up a bit but the council of Nikea (sp?) demonstrated the duplicity of the Emperor and his cohorts - no one can deny that either.

 

Choosing Horus as his champion was obviously the wrong call. The Emperor tried to bring him back to his side during their final battle rather than first slay him outright and paid the ultimate price.

 

There are no Imperial Primarchs left fighting now while many of the Primarchs that turned are elevated to the rank of daemon princes and still fight. What the bad Primarchs did was wrong but it didn't necessarily have to be that way for all of them in my opinion. If just one of those Legions had remained loyal it might have turned out a lot different.

[Bulwyf]

Am I correct in thinking in the HH timeline we've seen from BL that Fulgrim had already turned traitor before Horus decided to do so?

 

Horus convinced Fulgrim to turn traitor. Lorgar>Horus>Angron>Fulgrim>Mortarion goes the timeline.

 

Wasn't Fulgrim already gone over to the demon before he talked to Horus?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

sort of - he was in possession of the daemon blade which was probably influencing his decisions, but he wasn't fully gone over to the daemon in the sense that it had taken over him.

[Jareddm]

Angryon was angry. He's a cardstock, two-dimensional villain. The more we learn about him, the less it makes sense that the Emperor ever let him run a legion, lol. BL could have gone a better direction with him, honestly. As it stands, he's still just really angry and an uncontrollable psychopath with flimsy motivations. He turned because he's angry. Should have spent as little time talking about him as possible. A terribly uninteresting character. He's angry. Horus tells him it would be sweet to be angry at the Emperor, he says yes, Isstvan happens. That's all we need to know. Angron is like a time travel movie, or a zombie movie. The less explaining you do, the more it makes sense.

 

I would argue against this, as Butcher's Nails shows a strong distinction between when and why he joined Horus compared to when and why he turned to chaos. I'm sure Betrayer will shed more light on the subject.

[gogmagog]

I was always wondered why the Emperor didnt just own Angrons enemies in the first place, I always thought this was a plot fail.

[Billuriye]

I was always wondered why the Emperor didnt just own Angrons enemies in the first place, I always thought this was a plot fail.

 

That planet's tech was pretty advanced. They were able to man certain individuals who were able to give Angron hard time and inflict terrible wounds. Considering how easy Angron killed a Custodes, i doubt it would be a piece of cake. That's the best explanation i come up with anyway.

[Emperor's Furor]

Or maybe the Emperor wanted to fuel Angron's anger?

[Nehekhare]

If you read the world eater background from HH: Betrayal, it becomes quite clear that the emperor may have created the legion as a necessary evil even before the finding of Angron, choosing only the most psychopathic specimen from all terran tribes for implantation after intense psychological screening. The Primarch fit in perfectly. Leads to speculation whether the emperor deliberately made him watch his brother gladiators die just to piss him off, doesn't it?

[Archlich]

Hi,

 

Is it only me who thinks that almost every traitor primarch had a chance?

 

Magnus: Obvious - he could have used astrotelepathy to warn his father, or just travel using ship. He could just capitulated, or surrender to his fate (not battle Russ). Also - he could just stick to hitting people with sharp objects after Nikea:)

 

Fulgrim: Why would he even bother taking xenoweapon in the first place!? Just stick to the one Ferrus Made for you. Alternativley: he could have lived after Istvaan - corrupted yes, but not possessed by daemon.

 

Peturabo: This entire motivation is stupid - ok, I get it, that sieges can be stressful... Explosions, trench warfare, etc... But IW were relegated to garrison duties just to relax and rest between combats. Besides sieges can bring a LOT of fame too, and you can rebuild the place afterwards (fun, and you can make all those visions of Peturabo came true). Why would they massacre civilian population of they homeworld in the first place (essentially they families!)? Honestly - I liked idea of a deamon possessed hammer.

 

Angron - old fluff - he could be easily saved by assisting him in his battle with slavers. New - doomed from the start.

 

Mortarion - funny guy with scythe and without friends (although I belive he should go along well with Russ). ANY person which trusts Typhus over trained navigators with guiding ENTIRE FLEET (trust me, I am very skilled in finding my ways in the fog, and also I HAVE POWERS) should not lead men, EVER!! He could have fared way better - he is now stinking daemon (not funny one like Fulgrim).

 

Horus - HH is called HH for some reason:)

 

Lorgar - basically he would be THE MOST LOYAL primarch if Emperor would just be a little bit more tolerant. Also - he basically won the heresy:) (Emperor is a god, his new masters are happy). Although he could have changed his ways, instead of worshiping the emperor he could worshipp technology, his genious, or just BE blindly devoted to the cause (crazed, maniacal atheist:) )

 

Curze - what a wonderful gift he had! Seeing the worst possible scenario of the future gives you untold advantage (ability to avoid it would be the obvious one). This should not make you depressed, this should make you happy. He should be happy, unicorn loving, pink wearing primarch of happiness and joy! See disaster - avoid disaster. I like him way more in Dorian Heresy (where he realises, that his visions are a gift). Easily easiest primarch to save (one, two therapy sessions with daddy, or ANY schrink:) ).

 

Alpharius&Omegon - I haven't read their further books, but let's be honest: you do not go through known universe killing aliens just to see Power Point presentation (made by Eldar BTW - holofields anyone:/? ), and believe it to the point that you betray father, and everything you and him stood for! Easily THE WORST explanation ever! And in the end vision was a lie - Horus lost, and Chaos got precisely what it wanted... The funniest thing is that even after they saw that it was a lie and failure they stick to loosing side (with they abilities to blend in, AL could easily pass as some "lost in the warp company\chapter").