Emperor's Furor Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 According to Betrayal Mortarion only got on with Horus and ocassionally Curze. Both Corax and Roboute had already reported him to the Emperor for his dubious methods and behaviour but the Emperor dismissed them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Peturabo: This entire motivation is stupid - ok, I get it, that sieges can be stressful... Explosions, trench warfare, etc... But IW were relegated to garrison duties just to relax and rest between combats. Besides sieges can bring a LOT of fame too, and you can rebuild the place afterwards (fun, and you can make all those visions of Peturabo came true). Why would they massacre civilian population of they homeworld in the first place (essentially they families!)? Honestly - I liked idea of a deamon possessed hammer. Read Angel Exterminatus. Essentially, it's about Peturabos misunderstood and undervalued architectual genius. He is gifted with an innate understanding of gravity, force and matter. So despite creating the most beautiful and functional structures, he is used for war and not allowed to ever bring any of his creations to reality. and not any kind of war, but the dull chore of siegecraft. On top of that, his less gifted brother Dorn gets all the props, becoming praetorian, being depicted in artwork and famed for heroism, while Perturabos Legion does all the dirty work and gets nothing. Competition turns into hatred. So when rebellion breaks out on Olympia of all the home planets, in the heart of the best defended fortress ever, this is a slap in the face of epic propotions. The Lord of Iron not able to hold his own fortress? This is why he goes overboard on punishment. After all, the olympians get the same treatment as every other oppenent - once the siege has begun, there is no mercy. Basically, he is manipulated into choosing between two equally bad choices: either live with the shame of the olympian rebellion, or extinguish it and cross the line. Once he chose the latter, Horus offers him not only forgiveness, but laudation for his resolute action. Since the emperor won't understand the genocide, siding with horus is the only option left... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Im looking foward to this book. I have been waiting for the IW to be fleshed out a bit. It sounds like the IW and IF should have been brothers, with the IWs building the fortification and the stoic IFs defending them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Peturabo: This entire motivation is stupid - ok, I get it, that sieges can be stressful... Explosions, trench warfare, etc... But IW were relegated to garrison duties just to relax and rest between combats. Besides sieges can bring a LOT of fame too, and you can rebuild the place afterwards (fun, and you can make all those visions of Peturabo came true). Why would they massacre civilian population of they homeworld in the first place (essentially they families!)? Honestly - I liked idea of a deamon possessed hammer. Read Angel Exterminatus. Essentially, it's about Peturabos misunderstood and undervalued architectual genius. He is gifted with an innate understanding of gravity, force and matter. So despite creating the most beautiful and functional structures, he is used for war and not allowed to ever bring any of his creations to reality. and not any kind of war, but the dull chore of siegecraft. On top of that, his less gifted brother Dorn gets all the props, becoming praetorian, being depicted in artwork and famed for heroism, while Perturabos Legion does all the dirty work and gets nothing. Competition turns into hatred. So when rebellion breaks out on Olympia of all the home planets, in the heart of the best defended fortress ever, this is a slap in the face of epic propotions. The Lord of Iron not able to hold his own fortress? This is why he goes overboard on punishment. After all, the olympians get the same treatment as every other oppenent - once the siege has begun, there is no mercy. Basically, he is manipulated into choosing between two equally bad choices: either live with the shame of the olympian rebellion, or extinguish it and cross the line. Once he chose the latter, Horus offers him not only forgiveness, but laudation for his resolute action. Since the emperor won't understand the genocide, siding with horus is the only option left... I have a doubt. Why Perturabo worried about the genocide? Other Legions made the same during the Great Crusade without a word from the Emperor. I read the results of some "kill everyone" made by World Eaters and Space Wolves and Word Bearer (after the Emperor's cure). Moreover Curze attacked Dorn (seriously wounding him) and destroyed Nostramo and still his Legion was sent to Istvaan V to protect the Imperium against the evil Horus... So it's clear that the Emperor allowed everything except a precise order made by him... he didn't care for a single genocide, probably even for 100 considering his galaxy wide view and his consideration for the human life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 True. The emperor himself ordered the genocide at monachia by the ultramarines, which pretty much started the heresy. But the Olympians were just Perturabo's own choice, slaughtered to avenge his personal shame. I dount the emperor would have looked too kindly on that. And even if he had, Perturabo himself did not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archlich Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Peturabo had skills, support of mechanicum, and whole legion full of people with pickaxes and shovels. After siege is done - you need to rebuild. WB wasted plenty of time building catchedrals and converting people. UM conquered and "restored infrastructure". Horus usually choose long negotiation process over quick conquest. You can come like WS and essentially bike planet to submission, then go without even saying why you came ("Who were those people?":pinch: ), or SLAUGHTER your way through - if you are into that sort of a thing... Or you can complete the siege and then rebuild to your liking:) Let's also not forget that IW had a lot of garrissons - perfect opportunity to make people build something for the glory of Peturabo Even SOH did that in Horus Rising... Of course this would turn IW into space faeries building stuff for the people - not dreadful Chaos Space Marines. As for Praetorian thing: I distinctively remember that in one book when it was declared that IF will RETURN to Earth to act as Emperor's Preatoprians - ordinary legionaries believed that this is a punischment fort some failure: no battles=no glory (seriously-can someone quote some big IF victory from crusade era?) So essentially Peturabo could fulfill himself building stuff on conquered planets - he choose not. He was just whining instead. Sad thing is that with his legions potential he could create empire to rival Ultrammar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Rogal Dorn shared a lot of the traits of Peturabo, Rogal Dorn hated to tear down the Emperor's Palace, he thought it was beautiful, it turns out Perturabo has a eye for beauty as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Of course this would turn IW into space faeries building stuff for the people - not dreadful Chaos Space Marines.As for Praetorian thing: I distinctively remember that in one book when it was declared that IF will RETURN to Earth to act as Emperor's Preatoprians - ordinary legionaries believed that this is a punischment fort some failure: no battles=no glory (seriously-can someone quote some big IF victory from crusade era?) So essentially Peturabo could fulfill himself building stuff on conquered planets - he choose not. He was just whining instead. Sad thing is that with his legions potential he could create empire to rival Ultrammar. You are perfectly right. The IF are lame compared to the IW. I don't remember a story about a siege or a fortress with them (attackers or defenders). The only possible element was the Phalanx. The description of the IW is quite strange. They are considered the best siege breaker specialists and they ended in building new fortresses and garrisoning them. So, which is their real expertise? Building a fortress or putting down one... it's not the same... to be a master you need to know how the enemy think or act, but you cannot be a master both in attack and in defence... I think the idea to build new fortresses came not from the Emperor but from Perturabo himself. Every other Legion left the reconstruction and the governance of the conquered planet to an Imperial Governor choosen between the Imperial Guard commanders. Only with the IW the building of the new fortress are a task for the Astartes. Why did exist this exception? Only for Perturabo choice, because he preferred to build and not to tear down a fortification. And at the end, when the building was completed, they didn't want to give what they have built to someone else and in that case they put inside some Iron Warriors as a garrison. His hatred against Dorn and the Emperor came out from his desire to built the Imperial Palace and not for the use as a siege breaker or in garrison duty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Hi, Is it only me who thinks that almost every traitor primarch had a chance? Magnus: Obvious - he could have used astrotelepathy to warn his father, or just travel using ship. He could just capitulated, or surrender to his fate (not battle Russ). Also - he could just stick to hitting people with sharp objects after Nikea:) astrotelephathy is not a email or something like that. he can send one but there is the chance that the emperor cant here until is to late and it dosent matter. because he still use sorcery to know about horus so the emperor will thow him to wolfs Curze - what a wonderful gift he had! Seeing the worst possible scenario of the future gives you untold advantage (ability to avoid it would be the obvious one). This should not make you depressed, this should make you happy. He should be happy, unicorn loving, pink wearing primarch of happiness and joy! See disaster - avoid disaster. I like him way more in Dorian Heresy (where he realises, that his visions are a gift). Easily easiest primarch to save (one, two therapy sessions with daddy, or ANY schrink:) ). you see, curze think that he cant fight fate. and see how everything happens in the heresy he was right. so is a curse more than a gift. about perturabo i remenber that other legions use the IW in garrison forces to avoid using is one tropes or using the siege ability to take the worst of a fight and them take the credit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Magnus, Horus were done in by pride. A case for pride can also be made for Fulgrim, Lorgar, and even Perturabo, and Mortarion although other factors certainly played a larger role than with Magnus and Horus. Angron, Curze, and Alpharius/Omegon, had other factors, not really related to pride. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Magnus, Horus were done in by pride. A case for pride can also be made for Fulgrim, Lorgar, and even Perturabo, and Mortarion although other factors certainly played a larger role than with Magnus and Horus. Angron, Curze, and Alpharius/Omegon, had other factors, not really related to pride. i think in aurelian say something like that: some like angron,fulgrim and mortarin will join by the own reasons,others like magnus and horus need to be push on the right side and there are ones like lorgar who join for mankind Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 One theory I've heard about why the Emperor didn't smite Angron's enslavers from orbit is that Angron's rebellion was much less "We few, we proud, we band of brothers...FREEEEDDOOOM!" and much more "Blood for the...Skulls for the...you know, guys, I feel like we're missing something here, but I can't say what. Ah well, take that city and kill every living thing in it, maybe it'll come to me." Betrayer will probably blow this to pieces, but it seems sensible, no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3252890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Lorgar - because he was weak-willed and needed something, anything to pray to Horus - poisoned by warp magic, his sense of being betrayed by the Emperor due to normals taking over command of the Imperium, not being trusted with the knowledge of the Imperial Webway, and pride. Alpharius/Omegon - stupidity, idiots who believed in some aliens' movies Perturabo - felt underestimated, under-appreciated Angron - felt betrayed by the Emperor twice, first by pulling him out of a last stand (instead of helping him), then leaving the Great Crusade Fulgrim - Pride and vanity Magnus - his is the most tragic, he was loyal till the end, even when the wolves attacked Prospero, he refused to turn. only when he had nothing no other choice did he turn. the wolves burning Prospero instead of just bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra as the Emperor ordered was the main cause Konrad Cruze - his wish to see his own philosophy bear fruit, evil will always be punished Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archlich Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Alpharius/Omegon - stupidity, idiots who believed in some aliens' movies Totally agree. God I hate that legion and attempts to make it look cool\almighty. Fulgrim - Pride and vanity I disagree. Everyone seems to believe that this was out of pride and his quest for perfection. But I read "Fulgrim" - for me it is just that sword altered his perception of reality, and at some point just drive him mad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Personally, I think a lot of it boiled down to the fact that every Primarch was flawed in their own way. The only thing that kept some of them loyal and the rest turning traitor was merely timing and circumstance. For the sake of argument I'll look at 3, loyalist and traitor Primarchs. First up Lorgar, imagine he found out what Erebus and Kor Phaeron had been doing before they got smacked down by the big E. They'd have been DEAD. Hence no turning Horus. Next we have Rogal Dorn. Probably his greatest flaw was his inability to accept that his brothers were coming to Terra and they would kill everything in their way and he wouldn't be able to stop them. Faced with that, does he stay loyal? Yes he does, because he was on Terra, with his father and at the end he even had Sanguinius and the Khan with him. Lastly the Night Haunter. He went off the deep end because the world he thought he had made stable turned its back on him and fed him torturers rapists and killers for his Legion. His flaw? Better to ask his virtues because lets face it bar Angron he is the most messed up Primarch there is. But if all this had happened before the outbreak of the heresy it would have been dealt with and in all likelihood he'd be dead or back on the straight and narrow. In summary, most of them turned either due to what happened to them during the Great Crusade/pre Heresy and the circumstances around the start that provided them the opportunity/pitfalls to get sucked in Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yeah, the Twins were so dumb. How could they possibly have believed it when the Cabal showed them a vision of whag would happen if the Loyalists won the Heresy...which turned out to be exactly what happened when the Loyalists won the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Only that the Emperor half died and sorta ends in a Stalemate Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yeah, the Twins were so dumb.How could they possibly have believed it when the Cabal showed them a vision of whag would happen if the Loyalists won the Heresy...which turned out to be exactly what happened when the Loyalists won the Heresy. Of course I'm not neutral on this matter. First, I'm not completely sure that they accepted as truth the info from the Cabal. A Xeno organisation that explained to them to betray the Emperor to allow him to win against his adversary with the killing of everybody... Difficult to believe for a Legion that believe in secrecy, treachery and duplicity in order to accomplish a mission... and kill everybody is a last resort option not an initial one... Second. In Deliverance Lost, even the other traitors were suspicious of the actions of the Alpha Legion. Alpharius (the "real" one) thought about Istvaan V outcome and said to himself that he allowed many loyalists to escape in order to obtain balance and not a complete victory for Horus. Omegon. Modified the final mission from destroying the genecode to keep it. And they sent out the Cabal Emissary in a harsh way... considering him as every one else... expendable. I think they decided to "follow a narrow path" in order to reach a final stalemate between Chaos and Order... maybe their project broke when the Emperor jumped inside the Horus's battlebarge, because they planned for the arrival of the relief force and Horus ending the assault and heading to the Eye before the arrival of the loyalist reinforcements. My personal opinion is they are secret servants of Tzeentch because "He/It does not plot towards some end (at least none that can be comprehended), He/It schemes simply to scheme". After all the hydra is another reptile like the ouroboros of the TS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 they are secret servants of Tzeentch interesting, as we see lorkar paired up with angron (khorne) and perturabo with fulgrim (slaanesh) in other publications. anything about curze and mortarion (or is it horus, as he falls to chaos when he is wounded by a champion of nurgle?)...? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Commander Danek Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Curze - what a wonderful gift he had! Seeing the worst possible scenario of the future gives you untold advantage (ability to avoid it would be the obvious one). This should not make you depressed, this should make you happy. He should be happy, unicorn loving, pink wearing primarch of happiness and joy! See disaster - avoid disaster. I like him way more in Dorian Heresy (where he realises, that his visions are a gift). Easily easiest primarch to save (one, two therapy sessions with daddy, or ANY schrink:) ). Seeing the worse possible future does not = being able to avoid it. Just cuz he saw the finish does not mean he saw the roads that led there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Curze - what a wonderful gift he had! Seeing the worst possible scenario of the future gives you untold advantage (ability to avoid it would be the obvious one). This should not make you depressed, this should make you happy. He should be happy, unicorn loving, pink wearing primarch of happiness and joy! See disaster - avoid disaster. I like him way more in Dorian Heresy (where he realises, that his visions are a gift). Easily easiest primarch to save (one, two therapy sessions with daddy, or ANY schrink:) ). Seeing the worse possible future does not = being able to avoid it. Just cuz he saw the finish does not mean he saw the roads that led there. Especially since no matter what you do to try and prevent a horrible future, there is probably another horrible future out there that could still potentially happen. It'd be like seeing a picture of a puppy that's going to die that day, and even if you save that puppy, the next day there is another puppy that's going to die. Imagine a being as powerful as a Primarch being granted visions of how grimdark things can get, and coming to the painful realization that even he can't save everyone. Especially since he had managed to obtain complete control over Nostromo back in the day (through the use of intestines as garlands). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc1138 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Magnus - his is the most tragic, he was loyal till the end, even when the wolves attacked Prospero, he refused to turn. only when he had nothing no other choice did he turn. the wolves burning Prospero instead of just bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra as the Emperor ordered was the main cause I'll agree that Magnus's story is a tragic one, certainly more than many of his brothers, but I don't believe he had "no other choice." He could many times before Prospero was attacked have turned away from tapping into the warp. But he didn't. Why? Because he thought he knew better than ANYone. Also, during the attack he could have (and almost did) gone to his and his legion's death rather than taking Tzeentch by the hand knowingly (he'd made a deal with him before, but he knew much more what he was getting into the second time). Many, including Magnus himself, consider him to be a paragon of loyalty to the Emperor, but his choices show him to be more loyal to: 1) Knowledge (especially of the warp), and the pursuit thereof 2) His TS 3) Himself (As an aside, I find Magnus the Red one of the more interesting Primarchs) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3255829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I don't think Perturabo's reasoning for turning traitor will ever be good enough for me. I could see him being embarrassed, and losing face in the eyes of his brothers, but why would the Emperor never forgive him for eradicating sedition upon his world? That's the whole point of the Great Crusade, isn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3256497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Magnus - his is the most tragic, he was loyal till the end, even when the wolves attacked Prospero, he refused to turn. only when he had nothing no other choice did he turn. the wolves burning Prospero instead of just bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra as the Emperor ordered was the main cause I'll agree that Magnus's story is a tragic one, certainly more than many of his brothers, but I don't believe he had "no other choice." He could many times before Prospero was attacked have turned away from tapping into the warp. But he didn't. Why? Because he thought he knew better than ANYone. Also, during the attack he could have (and almost did) gone to his and his legion's death rather than taking Tzeentch by the hand knowingly (he'd made a deal with him before, but he knew much more what he was getting into the second time). Many, including Magnus himself, consider him to be a paragon of loyalty to the Emperor, but his choices show him to be more loyal to: 1) Knowledge (especially of the warp), and the pursuit thereof 2) His TS 3) Himself (As an aside, I find Magnus the Red one of the more interesting Primarchs) Like his "traitor" brothers he went to the edge of the abyss... between loyalty and corruption... but he fell because he was pushed... this is the great difference between the other traitor Primarchs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3256541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Jc1138: it dosen`t matter becasue tzeetch will do another plan to destroy them. if magnus stop is study of the warp maybe the wolf will be in istavaan and maybe russ sufer the destiny of manus. or wharever destiny tzeetch have for them algo he is loyalto his TS see them and his whole planet to die that way was to much for him. i can`t see any primach withness the destrucion cause by the wolfs and just let then happen. one thing is let the wolfs the easy way to take prospero other is see prospero burn and die with his legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266884-traitor-primarchs-their-downfalls/page/2/#findComment-3256571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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