Traitor Primarchs - Their Downfalls

[Brother Immolator]

While I agree on most parts, I find one to be rather...strange.

 

Why is considered Fulgrim to have gone well through the Heresy? He lost control of himself and essentially is an echo in a body controlled by demon.

[jc1138]

Jc1138: it dosen`t matter becasue tzeetch will do another plan to destroy them. if magnus stop is study of the warp maybe the wolf will be in istavaan and maybe russ sufer the destiny of manus. or wharever destiny tzeetch have for them

 

algo he is loyalto his TS see them and his whole planet to die that way was to much for him. i can`t see any primach withness the destrucion cause by the wolfs and just let then happen. one thing is let the wolfs the easy way to take prospero other is see prospero burn and die with his legion

 

Hmmm. I'll agree that Tzeentch is subtle, and would have gone to great lengths to secure Magnus and the TS, but it almost seems you're saying that one cannot really resist him because he will always win in the end (I may be miss-reading you, I'm not 100% clear what you're saying). I don't believe that. If it were true then Tzeentch would really be THE power player in 40k (and maybe he is, who knows?) and we haven't been presented with that so far.

 

And to your second point, It's far from certain, but I could believe that Dorn, Guilliman (I think these may be the most likely), and perhaps Sang, might have tried to give themselves up in order to save their men if put in Magnus's position at the attack on Prospero. Perhaps others, such as Russ and The Lion, may have gone down fighting, but I can't see them shaking hands with the devil, even (and maybe especially) to save their own hides.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Why is considered Fulgrim to have gone well through the Heresy? He lost control of himself and essentially is an echo in a body controlled by demon.

No, he's most certainly back in control. And very evil. Read Angel Exterminatus and that short story in ... Shadows of Treachery? It was in one of the anthologies...

[DarthMarko]

Jc1138: it dosen`t matter becasue tzeetch will do another plan to destroy them. if magnus stop is study of the warp maybe the wolf will be in istavaan and maybe russ sufer the destiny of manus. or wharever destiny tzeetch have for them

 

algo he is loyalto his TS see them and his whole planet to die that way was to much for him. i can`t see any primach withness the destrucion cause by the wolfs and just let then happen. one thing is let the wolfs the easy way to take prospero other is see prospero burn and die with his legion

 

Hmmm. I'll agree that Tzeentch is subtle, and would have gone to great lengths to secure Magnus and the TS, but it almost seems you're saying that one cannot really resist him because he will always win in the end (I may be miss-reading you, I'm not 100% clear what you're saying). I don't believe that. If it were true then Tzeentch would really be THE power player in 40k (and maybe he is, who knows?) and we haven't been presented with that so far.

 

And to your second point, It's far from certain, but I could believe that Dorn, Guilliman (I think these may be the most likely), and perhaps Sang, might have tried to give themselves up in order to save their men if put in Magnus's position at the attack on Prospero. Perhaps others, such as Russ and The Lion, may have gone down fighting, but I can't see them shaking hands with the devil, even (and maybe especially) to save their own hides.

This is what I posted 50 times...here is an example what Lorgar thought on that:

Emperor, commanding the second-largest Legion in the Imperium. You are a broken soul, leading a shattered Legion. Perhaps I was never the one that needed protection, nor did my arrogance lead to my downfall. You cannot claim the same, Magnus. We both knew the truth, but only one of us faced it.’

 

And such a truth. Bitter amusement lapped at Lorgar’s senses. The galaxy is a foul place. We are only making it fouler. Have you considered that it might be better to die in ignorance than to live with the truth?

 

Lorgar repelled his brother’s creeping emotions with a burst of irritation. The spectre shimmered again, almost dissolving into the air.

 

+ Have you considered it, Magnus? If so, why do you yet live? Why did you not surrender to the howling death that came for you, when Russ broke your spine over his knee? +

 

Magnus’s ghost-image laughed, but it was a forced sound, barely reaching Lorgar’s mind. Is this what we have come to? Is this the bitterness you have hidden from all of us for half a century? What did you see at the end of your Pilgrimage, my brother? What did you see when you stared into the abyss?

 

+ You know what I saw. I saw the warp, and what swims within its tides. + He hesitated a moment, feeling his fingers curl, forming fists in his rising rage. + You are a coward, to know of the Primordial Truth yet fail to embrace it. Chaos Incarnate is only grotesque because we see it with mortal eyes. When we ascend, we will be the chosen children of the gods.

 

[KarkassBC]

I read it but I miss which is your point.

[Wade Garrett]

No, he's most certainly back in control. And very evil. Read Angel Exterminatus and that short story in ... Shadows of Treachery? It was in one of the anthologies...

 

The story you are thinking of is "The Reflection Crack'd" and it was in the Primarchs anthology.

 

Returning to the subject of changes made Pre-Heresy, what's the consensus opinion of Mortarion's changes to the Dusk Raiders battle doctrine? They seem to have gone from a force that specialized in stealth tactics (and were, I assume, divided into Tactical, Assault, and Devastator squads like all the rest) to a group where everyone was equipped with a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and Close Combat Weapon, with a heavy emphasis on formations and the firepower of massed infantry men, who specialized in operating in hostile environments and difficult terrain.

[DarthMarko]

I read it but I miss which is your point.

Now don't get offended by this - but my point is that, taint was planted in him when he made Faustian deal - and he doesn't really have a choice in anything, just thinks he has, and when he had to make a hard choice, he relented...

Lorgar - for example, knows what he is...and doesn't mix anything...

 

Now this is my (rather radical) opinion...don't take it personal because you obviously like Magnus...

[KarkassBC]

I read it but I miss which is your point.

Now don't get offended by this - but my point is that, taint was planted in him when he made Faustian deal - and he doesn't really have a choice in anything, just thinks he has, and when he had to make a hard choice, he relented...

Lorgar - for example, knows what he is...and doesn't mix anything...

 

Now this is my (rather radical) opinion...don't take it personal because you obviously like Magnus...

 

I like Corax, Guilliman, Sanguinius, Perturabo, Lorgar, Alpharius/Omegon, Curze, Lion

I dislike Russ, Angron, Fulgrim, Horus, Dorn, Mortarion

 

I don't have an opinion on Khan, Ferrus and Vulkan... maybe less stories on them

 

It's not the point about the Primarchs that we like or not, but the reason of their downfall.

 

Lorgar and Magnus were different. Lorgar embraced the new faith while Magnus remained on the edge. He accepted the offer of Tzeentch only because there was another Primarch making "Godzilla" throught the streets of Prospero (Tizca). We cannot say what could happened without this event... maybe he could fall the same, but he could change his view and taking another path... we don't know because he needed to make a decision "do or die".