Defeating Screamer/Flamer Lists

[L30n1d4s]

GKs are obviously built to defeat Daemons (for Heavens sakes, they even have PE: Deamons :huh: ), so we should have one of the better chances of defeating the infamous Screamer/Flamer style armies that are highly popular at the moment.

 

Aside from simply massing SBs/Psycannons, I am taking a look at other options GKs have to deal with this kind of list. One of the best one appears to be massed Incinerators.

 

Since GKs have PE: Daemons, evach Incinerator auto-hits, ignores cover, and re-rolls all 1s t wound against Screamers and Flamers.... if bunched up, there is a good chance each Incinerator Template could hit 3-4 models, causing about 2 unsaved wounds each.... if you have Purifiers or Purgation Squads, you could have up to 4 Incinerators, so basically causing 8 unsaved wounds on average, thereby killing 4 Daemons in a single volley... throw in another 12 SB shots with Psybolts and you could kill anther Daemon or two, basically killing an 5-6 Daemons in a single volley, which leaves on a few left in a full sized squad to deal with.

 

Another possible weapon to use is the Orbital Strike Relay.... D3 S6 Large Blasts with PE: Daemon (i.e. re-roll all to Wounds of 1) could potentially do some real damage to a squad of Screamers or Flamers before they get in range to cause a serious threat to GK forces (Warp Quake can keep them at bay for that first turn DS).

 

Finally, throwing in a Henchman Warband with a Banisher in a Chimera or Storm Raven which can Move Flat Out around the table and provide a 6" bubble of forcing Daemons to re-roll successful Invuls can really amp up the damage output GKs do against Screamers and Flamers, whatever the weapon shooting at them.

 

I am curious what tactics others have used/plan to use to take on the Screamer/Flamer threat armies

[Gentlemanloser]

While this might be construed as yet another negative post, my plan is to just pack up my minis.

 

I will not face a full flamer/screamer list.

 

Incinerators aren't the answer. if we're in range to use them, we were in range of the flamers, and are dead.

 

They are the single most broken thing in 40k atm (forgewolrd is a seperate entity) and there isn't really an answer to them.

 

/bitter

[spartan249]

I play 4 strike squads, coteaz, and stormravens. I combat squad and quake up if I have the opportunity. This really limits their damage output while maximizing mine. The flamers are either shooting then dying, or running and eating saves (most likely dying). It gets bad only because of Kairos or pavane, which synergizes a bit too well to be kosher ATM. But if it's really going that bad, then I bring out my tailoring special (daemon auto lose T1 given win condition).

[Zeratul29]

Really, you're supposed to go strike squads Like Spartan pointed out above, it gives you a 12" bubble around your guys so if your opponen's units scatter within 12" of the gk's they suffer an AUTOMATIC mishap,

 

I believe this power was initially written for deamons, as to give gks breathing room so they arent ridiculously surrounded and so they can get the all important against deamons, the charge off, which you're better off just shooting them, cuz of overwatch flamers :)

[greatcrusade08]

interceptors also have warp quake dont they?

plus they have the cool shunt moves and are JP troops

[Gentlemanloser]

They have WQ, but aren't troops.

 

And don't have a Rhino to hide in.

 

If you try strikes for wq, it's best to stick them in a razor, and Wq off the hull. this also gives you one turns protection from the flames. unless screamers are sent in first.

[Zeratul29]

Yeah, if you don't get first turn, you're pretty screwed tbh...

[Captain Idaho]

Daemons deepstrike on their first turn, so going 1st or 2nd will not change your counter attack - you have to wait until they deepstrike before you can do anything about it.

 

Giving just how many psycannons and psybolts GK players can put onto the table I'd have thought they were best suited to killing Flamers?

[Gentlemanloser]

If you don't go first, you can't WQ the first wave that DSes in.

 

The problem with us is we're expensive, and die like guard to flamers. Other Marines can output the same shots with Bolters now, and are cheaper.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

First of all, no need to be depressed Gentlemanloser. It's a gimmicky troll list made because GW never read their own rules or playtest. Doesn't mean we can't.

 

I would further add (and I make this point everywhere I see 'doom n gloom') that the much-talked about tournament it won at was BP focused, not objective focused. They won by killing stuff, to put it bluntly. It shouldn't shock anyone that it did well, in such an environment. As we all know, real 40k doesn't actually care about killing stuff (except in 'Purge' of course), its who has more scoring on objectives at dice down. Killing Troops is a means to doing so, but if all your list does is kill hard at close range, it can be countered.

 

GK have all the tools to dismantle this terrible internet list. I will make the caveat that pure GK lists Achille's heel is this broken list, so for anyone adverse to Henchmen or Allies, pack up now. Srsly, Daemons were always designed to hard-counter small elite lists. Lets break it down unit by unit:

 

- Flamers:

 

Okay, so lets get the obvious out of the way. They are unchargeable (Crusaders are your only real option, Paladins don't have enough wounds) with anything valuable, and if they get within 20" of you its game over (their movement+flamer template range). On the plus side, they are absolutely woeful in actual melee (ie whatever survives or multi-charges them will club them to death fairly easily, even horde infantry will just mass them down).

 

So, your two basic strategies are to either engage them further than 20" (happily 24" is our army's effective range for most units) and to limit their movement (this is where cheap transports and units come into play). Going with option A, we have the right weaponry for the task. Acolyte storm bolters, Knight storm bolters, psycannons, plasma guns, autocannons, heavy bolters, multi-lasers, assault cannons, plasma cannons...You'll get basically two shooting phases to do your damage, then the survivors get in flame template range and obliterate your front line. In that context, I'd take Henchmen (specifically Acolytes with storm bolter and plasma cannon Servitors) as your front line. Any Knight units you take (Strikes are our most cost-effective shooting unit, plus they bring 'Quake', although Purifiers also bring quad psycannon for raw damage output) go behind this ablative shield. When the surviving Flamers hit your front line, they'll burn through the Acolytes but leave themselves open to a final round of shooting. You should walk backwards when this happens and keep firing (or keep the Purifiers stationary, as they are non-scoring anyway and you can afford to lose them if it means the Strikes live and score the objective).

 

Option B is a little trickier to pull off. Basically, you have to get the drop on the Flamers with a Crusader ball and tie them up in hand to hand. You need to choose Crusaders because DCA are overkill and will die in seconds to the Overwatch. Tank with your storm shields, on average enough Crusaders should survive to tarpit for at least a turn. Your two options are to place Crusader buffers as your front-line (replacing the Acolyte storm bolters), thus baiting the Flamers to try to clear them out. The other is to take two Ravens and drop two Crusader teams on top of the Flamers heads as they land. The last Flamer squad you'll have to focus down with your Shooting. In any case, once the Flamers are made stationary and have used up their Overwatch on cheap Henchmen, you can move up and multi-assault them. They can't Overwatch while engaged, which means your expensive Knight units can get a nice charge off and wipe them out handily. It's important that you don't over-commit though, ensure you've deal with the Screamer threat first (otherwise he'll dogpile you straight back, which won't end well).

 

- Screamers:

 

Lets get something out of the way. Jetbike movement is not an issue. Why? Because if you deploy correctly, they can't do their flyover move like Reavers and get hits. Force them to charge your front-line and eat cheap Henchmen. You win against this list based on deployment mostly, so take special care with how you place your units. Maximise 'Quake' coverage by Combat squadding, but keep everything behind a nice wall of cheap meatshields.

 

Daemons typically get around the castle by sending in the Flamers first to burn away this ablative layer, letting the Screamers zip past and eat the elite shooty stuff giving the Flamers problems. This is where Purifiers really come into their own. Two squads will still keep your Strikes alive and will have enough frontage. Ensure you are within difficult terrain, or buy a cheap Aegis line (or keep 'Sanctuary' on Coteaz). Regardless of how you do it, difficult terrain is essential, as despite all their buffs GW once again forgot to give Screamers frags (because yay, Imperial army bias). This means you don't have to invest in halberds, saving some points for psybolts on the Strike squads (a far better upgrade in this matchup). The Screamers first have their charge delayed by getting stuck on terrain, buying you another round of quad psycannon. They then finally hit your lines (at I1), which means they eat Overwatch and your melee attacks before getting hits with survivors. Even if they still manage to kill off both Purifier squads, the remnants will be able to get focused down by your Strike squads.

 

- Why They Suck aka getting rid of their Troops

 

So, remember that after investing in triple Screamers and Flamers, they have next to nothing in Troops (because often these lists bring flying Princes and Fateweaver for extra threat potential). The most you'll have to face are 3-4 Plaguebearer units, usually 7-10 strong. This kinda of thing is why Dreadknights were made. Shunt past his assault wave, light them up with a heavy incinerator. You then wanna get in close-combat and greatsword them to hell (re-rolling everything > re-rolling just 1's).

 

Your other tools for dismantling the Daemon assault wave (all that storm bolter, plasma, psycannon etc), whatever is left after the big clash can move up and get shooting. If you did it right, he'll have very little Flamer/Screamer left and be running his Troops backwards. You've already won by that point, so getting rid of the Troops is basically clean-up.

 

- A Note on Allies

 

I know we are only allowed to talk about Marines, which is silly btw (as Marines offer nothing in this matchup that we want). I will simply say there is another very guarded faction which suits this strategy guide, and another green faction who are better than Henchmen at being the Henchmen layer (minus the servitors obviously). Perhaps when B&C rescinds their ban on more general Ally discussion, I'll have more to say.

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, Crusaders are a very good option.

 

Thier low toughness and high Invulnerable save are the direct counterpoints to Flamers template weapons.

 

Thanks RD!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Haha no worries. Mind you, they're still gonna take a lot of wounds and probably lose half the squad at best, but yeah. As a hard-counter to both the 'problem' units that the power list spams, they are pretty hard to beat.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hmmm, how would you build an anti flamer/screamer list?

 

Coteaz (obviously)

 

Many Crusader Squads

 

Something shooty for Coteaz to join and shooting as they land.

 

Chimera over Rhinos?

 

NDKs or Dreads don't seem attractive really.

[DK1]

I have a guy in my LGS that plays the Flamer spam list, i use my Coteaz list to face him...thats Coteaz with two GKSS with psybolt ammo and 2x psycannons eash...if i dont get the first turn any of his squad of flamers that land within Coteazs reach normally die, plus i roll divination so if i get the "make you reroll sv" ability anything within that 6 inch move and 24 inch shooting is just about gone too...it is possible to beat without a lot of change to a competitive list. I have tabled him in 3 turns because he thought i was going to assault and i just shot him off the table, i didnt get first turn either. i just made a defense line in the corner that Coteaz was in the front.

 

He dosent play that list anymore.

 

Just my 2cents

 

DK

[Gentlemanloser]

If I was him, I'd just deploy outsdie of 12" of Coteaz (preferably aobut 20" away) and kill Coteaz turn 2.

 

From there on, it's just mopping up, if you're relying on Coteaz to keep the Daemons away.

[Grand Master Caloth]

seems to me that this is the case for the one weapon we ALL dismiss out of hand otherwise. Psilencers. Lots of rounds, always wound on fours against daemons.... its only downfall is it is a heavy weapon. otherwise, its simply more SB rounds. Its also king vs nurgle deamons of all kinds, all the greater deamons, and DPs

[DK1]

If I was him, I'd just deploy outsdie of 12" of Coteaz (preferably aobut 20" away) and kill Coteaz turn 2.

 

From there on, it's just mopping up, if you're relying on Coteaz to keep the Daemons away.

 

Hes tried that, also in that list is a GM and Dreadknight with a psycannon and psylancer, i wiped everything out turn 1 and he lost...hes tried that twice now and both times he has tried to do it i send 32 psy bolt rounds out with 16 psycannon shells plus 12 psylancer and 1 dish plate...i normaly serve him up with the Redeemer if anything is left.

 

This is only if i dont get the first turn, in all he has tested that list vs me about 20 times now and i have only lost once, and that was the first time since it took me about an hour to figure a hole in his plan.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Coteaz (obviously)

 

Many Crusader Squads

 

Something shooty for Coteaz to join and shooting as they land.

 

Chimera over Rhinos?

 

NDKs or Dreads don't seem attractive really.

 

Definitely Chimera bunkers. I'd get the Aegis line first, then worry about transports. Forcing the Flamers or Screamers to eat cheap armour first is a real help, plus it'll cluster them up for plasma blasts and incinerator death.

 

I'd consider taking a Dreadknight, to clear out the backfield Plaguebearers he'll drop on objectives, and also to deal with annoyances like the Tzeentch Heralds (they're impossible to catch with anything else except Interceptors). PsyDreads are a bit useless though, their S8 is wasted on Eternal Warriors.

 

I have a guy in my LGS that plays the Flamer spam list, i use my Coteaz list to face him...thats Coteaz with two GKSS with psybolt ammo and 2x psycannons eash...if i dont get the first turn any of his squad of flamers that land within Coteazs reach normally die, plus i roll divination so if i get the "make you reroll sv" ability anything within that 6 inch move and 24 inch shooting is just about gone too...it is possible to beat without a lot of change to a competitive list. I have tabled him in 3 turns because he thought i was going to assault and i just shot him off the table, i didnt get first turn either. i just made a defense line in the corner that Coteaz was in the front.

 

He dosent play that list anymore.

 

Just my 2cents

 

DK

 

Nice work. Good to see balanced lists fairing well against it.

 

seems to me that this is the case for the one weapon we ALL dismiss out of hand otherwise. Psilencers. Lots of rounds, always wound on fours against daemons.... its only downfall is it is a heavy weapon. otherwise, its simply more SB rounds. Its also king vs nurgle deamons of all kinds, all the greater deamons, and DPs

 

No, its awful and its functionally worse than the psycannon or incinerator against all targets. Even the gatling psilencer (which at least has a lot of shots) is functionally worse than the heavy incinerator or even the meh heavy psycannon. Taking psilencers is also way too much tailoring, as soon as you fight anything that isn't Daemons, its a huge liability. Just take psycannons.

 

Hes tried that, also in that list is a GM and Dreadknight with a psycannon and psylancer, i wiped everything out turn 1 and he lost...hes tried that twice now and both times he has tried to do it i send 32 psy bolt rounds out with 16 psycannon shells plus 12 psylancer and 1 dish plate...i normaly serve him up with the Redeemer if anything is left.

 

This is only if i dont get the first turn, in all he has tested that list vs me about 20 times now and i have only lost once, and that was the first time since it took me about an hour to figure a hole in his plan.

 

Great to hear man. Hopefully he steps up his game and Allies in some CSM to give you more of a challenge. Have you been playing straight KP missions, or objectives?

[DK1]

both...he playes so aggressive its always the same so it really dosent matter...he has more bloodletters now tho

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Bloodletters, lol. Throw the DK with sword+incinerator at them and laugh

[DK1]

Bloodletters, lol. Throw the DK with sword+incinerator at them and laugh

 

o i do...right now the only list he has that i dont have an answer for is Nurgel list...its like 6 full squads of Little Nurgs and filled out with Epidermis and a few princes...its just alot of units that thins out alot of normal fire. my Crowe and Draigo lists are evenly matched but its nasty.

 

He also has a Slanesh list i hate, but its crushed by my Coteaz armored list.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, when the Tally gets really high the Princes start getting insanely good. 3+ FNP rolls on top of Iron Hide is kinda nuts.

 

I came up with this the other day. Dunno if it works;

 

HQ:

 

Coteaz (keep default powers, 'Sanctuary' is crucial to screwing up their charges, and you only need re-rolls on the shooty Henchmen, all the Knights have 'Preferred Enemy' re-rolls to keep them accurate anyway)

(100 points)

 

(2) Inquisitor w/bolt pistol+force sword, Divination (delicious re-rolls to all that cheap plasma and storm bolter death, and they are Stubborn so you'll tarpit to the death)

(55 points each)

 

Elites:

 

(2) Flame Knight w/sword, 4 x Purifiers w/swords, 4 x Purifiers w/psycannons (re-roll 1's, 'Sanctuary' means you don't need halberds, dakka dakka dakka)

(280 points each)

 

Troops:

 

(4) 5 x Crusaders w/power axe+storm shield (keep em small and disposable, they're gonna die if things go to plan anyway)

(75 points each)

 

(2) 3 x Servitors w/plasma cannon, 7 x Acolytes w/storm bolters (gets rid of annoying Troops trying to drop on objectives, cheap dakka to supplement the Knights)

(109 points each)

 

(2) Justicar w/sword, 2 x Knights w/psycannons, 7 x Knights w/swords ('Quake', more psycannon and storm bolter)

(220 points each)

 

Fortification:

 

Aegis line (for when Coteaz can't get 'Sanctuary' working)

(50 points)

 

Total: 1,996 points

 

Maybe add a Mystic or servo-skull to make up the difference?

 

 

Your layers are as follows:

 

Outer ablative line: Crusaders, arranged in an arrowhead formation. Leave gaps to bait out the Screamers, but not wide enough for a flame template to be placed

Second ablative line: Purifiers, arranged in as long a formation as possible (spread out, they can't charge through you and you need to deny jetbike zoom landings by Screamers)

Inner phalanx: Aegis line, shooty warbands and Strike Combat squads get interspersed to provide maximal 'Quake' coverage. Coteaz should be deployed centrally to provide maximum 'Sanctuary' coverage. Aegis is insurance in case he fails his psychic test or gets assassinated.

 

So, due to 'Quake', he can't land near you. If he sends in the Flamers first, you have two layers he has to burn through before the Screamers are eating anything important. Remember, he can't split fire, hence he'll have to dedicate a whole Flame mob to each Crusader unit, otherwise they'll just tank the Overwatch and tarpit them. The Screamers are basically useless against this list, they will spend too long waiting around doing nothing. The Flamers are going to take the brunt of the shooting and they have to move forwards (the constant plasma bombardment forces them to, otherwise I'll just switch to blowing up whatever Troops they brought).

[DK1]

I mean in all there are ways to break the Chaos Flamer Spam...My Black Templer crush his Flamer spam with 60 troops and 15 terms...once his troops are on ground its a bolt pistol and assault fest, he can overwatch all he wants but it means little when he can only overwatch one unit and i assault with two full squads...its almost like playing IG sadly

[Reclusiarch Darius]

That's Templars though, we're talking Knights hard-countering them.

 

Invoking Allies for a moment, how about bringing a Null Zone Librarian and token Scout squad?

[greatcrusade08]

That's Templars though, we're talking Knights hard-countering them.

 

Invoking Allies for a moment, how about bringing a Null Zone Librarian and token Scout squad?

 

the land speeder storm has a jammer too, anything trying to DS within range (i cant remember if its 6 or 12) scatters 4D6