The Iron Within

[Tiger9gamer]

Hey guys, re-reading the Iron Within story now, and I was wondering what you guys think of it.

 

 

Also, what happened to the main character afterwards?

[Nehekhare]

i think the ultramarine character was totally unnecessary and uncalled for. Because of that spoof, Dantioch's honorable choice of siding with the emperor became a shadowy plot of manipulation by an seemingly omniscient guilliman. i hate this fanboying of loyalist legions in IW stories, like the ever-superior IF geneseed in Honsou. Does the IV Legion not have it's own heroes and decisions?

[Kol Saresk]

i think the ultramarine character was totally unnecessary and uncalled for. Because of that spoof, Dantioch's honorable choice of siding with the emperor became a shadowy plot of manipulation by an seemingly omniscient guilliman. i hate this fanboying of loyalist legions in IW stories, like the ever-superior IF geneseed in Honsou. Does the IV Legion not have it's own heroes and decisions?

You haven't read Angel Exterminatus have you?

[Týr]

i think the ultramarine character was totally unnecessary and uncalled for. Because of that spoof, Dantioch's honorable choice of siding with the emperor became a shadowy plot of manipulation by an seemingly omniscient guilliman. i hate this fanboying of loyalist legions in IW stories, like the ever-superior IF geneseed in Honsou. Does the IV Legion not have it's own heroes and decisions?

 

Seems like you missed the whole story. Sad.

 

 

To OP:

 

I loved the story. I think it's the best in the entire book because it surprised me so much. I hope we get to see more of them in future Abnett books, and find out why Dantioc was so important to Guilliman that he would send his personel champion.

Btw I started an old post. You might find some interesting takes on the story there as well.

 

Old post

[Tiger9gamer]

you know, I noticed something during the second read through...

 

It seemed like the Iron Warriors where in the "imperial cult." they where even in a chapel!

[Kol Saresk]

A chapel is nothing more than a gathering place. It is given a religious connotation only because of who used it. It's "purpose" was also derived from that. If anywhere that people with religion met deserved a religious connotation to be tagged with it, then homes would have to be included as well since the early Christians met in their own houses when they were avoiding persecution from the Jews and the Roman Empire. So no, meeting in a chapel does not make them servants of the Lectitio Divinatus.

[Nehekhare]

i've just recently read both Angel exterminatus and (anticipiating that) Iron within, kol (btw I was a bis disappointed by the character upwash and found the allusion to honsou at the end of the book very unnecessary).

 

tyr if i missed anything then enlighten me, but as it stands this is just my personal opinion regarding what I enjoy to read. I think I'm allowed to have that.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the allusion was and wasn't. After all, Honsou was the bastard because he was made with Imperial Fist and Iron Warrior gene-seed. And it was kind of necessary to explain the "potential" that was mentioned to exist in Honourable Soulaka's gene-seed and why Imperial Fist gene-seed was needed to create Honsou in the first place. A tying up of loose ends so to speak.

 

Also, the Ultramarines Champion did almost nothing. He offered Dantioch a choice. He didn't manipulate him. So everything is still Dantioch's choice. Dantioch had three choices: Join the rest of the Iron Warriors, Stay with the Imperium and fight back, or stay with the Imperium and go help with the Imperial Palace. Nicodemius wasn't overpowered either. By the end of the book he was practically half-dead.

[Emperor's Furor]

The "stubborness" which was inherent in the imperial Geneseed was extracted and used to make Honsou, the stubborness was a very real part of the geneseed as it allowed only the Imperial Fists who where experimented on to retain awareness, this was passed on to Honsou I guess. I've never really liked the geneseed manipulation stories tbh, like the clone ventris and the creation of Honsou, they never appealed to him and kind of came across as being shoe horned fluff.

[spu00sed]

I liked the story, I didn't get the premises.

 

There s a fortress hidden within a moonlit, with a small garrison force

 

We can

 

Ignore it

 

Mine the entrances

 

Try to blow it up from orbit

 

Invade it

 

Why was option four chose, it had no strategic importance, nor did it hold any important artefact/weapon

[Týr]

I liked the story, I didn't get the premises.

 

There s a fortress hidden within a moonlit, with a small garrison force

 

We can

 

Ignore it

 

Mine the entrances

 

Try to blow it up from orbit

 

Invade it

 

Why was option four chose, it had no strategic importance, nor did it hold any important artefact/weapon

 

Dantioc challenged the current warsmith (forgot his name) on his right to lead his company, and his abilities as an warrios of the IV legion. If he had not stood up to the challenge, his warriors would most likely have had a hard time to look up to him, and Perturabo would have a reason to replace him with a more capable commander.

And perhaps he was under specific orders from Perturabo that Dantioc was an important asset, and that he should be captured if he refused to join.

[spu00sed]

Dantioc challenged the current warsmith (forgot his name) on his right to lead his company, and his abilities as an warrios of the IV legion. If he had not stood up to the challenge, his warriors would most likely have had a hard time to look up to him, and Perturabo would have a reason to replace him with a more capable commander.

And perhaps he was under specific orders from Perturabo that Dantioc was an important access, and that he should be captured if he refused to join.

 

Still seemed forced to me

 

They put the fortress underground so it couldn't be destroyed from orbit, then had a "shown up In front of the company" to force an assault.

 

It suffers from the whole 30/40k wars must be fought on the ground, rather than blast them from orbit.

 

Still loved it

[spu00sed]

Dantioc challenged the current warsmith (forgot his name) on his right to lead his company, and his abilities as an warrios of the IV legion. If he had not stood up to the challenge, his warriors would most likely have had a hard time to look up to him, and Perturabo would have a reason to replace him with a more capable commander.

And perhaps he was under specific orders from Perturabo that Dantioc was an important access, and that he should be captured if he refused to join.

 

Still seemed forced to me

 

They put the fortress underground so it couldn't be destroyed from orbit, then had a "shown up In front of the company" to force an assault.

 

It suffers from the whole 30/40k wars must be fought on the ground, rather than blast them from orbit.

 

Still loved it

[Kol Saresk]

spu00sed: You do recall that the surface of the planet was so inhospitable that even Titans had a hard time on it? Mining the entrances would have been rather hard. Maybe further in the cave but there's no guarantee that you got all of the entrances since they weren't able to properly view the surface of the world.

 

Also, ignoring it was out of the question. The other Warsmith was there specifically to either claim the garrison in the name of the Iron Warriors, or to destroy it. Never leave an enemy at your back who can pick up a sword when you have the oppurtunity to kill them.

[Nehekhare]

that's the thing that lets me down: without nicodemus' offering, it would have been dantioch's own choice. All this character did was spoil that chance and take the limelight with his deus ex machina appearance. as it is, the story shows that "the iron within" the old iron warrior veteran supposedly isn't very strong without an ultramarine wielding it ;)

 

wasn't honsou created of harvested IF seed without any IW? if so, it's a shame that the most prominent IW character is an IF actually. considering our long feud, it's an insult really.

how would IF fans feel if a new story would detail how Lysander was secretly made from perturabo's geneseed or calgar was in fact an alpha legion spy?

 

yeah, i'm biased. glory to the IV.

[Týr]

Dantioc challenged the current warsmith (forgot his name) on his right to lead his company, and his abilities as an warrios of the IV legion. If he had not stood up to the challenge, his warriors would most likely have had a hard time to look up to him, and Perturabo would have a reason to replace him with a more capable commander.

And perhaps he was under specific orders from Perturabo that Dantioc was an important asset, and that he should be captured if he refused to join.

 

Still seemed forced to me

 

They put the fortress underground so it couldn't be destroyed from orbit, then had a "shown up In front of the company" to force an assault.

 

It suffers from the whole 30/40k wars must be fought on the ground, rather than blast them from orbit.

 

Still loved it

 

Another issue could be that the fortress was so deep underground it would impossible to destroy it without also destroying the whole planet. And most likely the power to utilise planet-killer weapon still lay with the primarchs even tough the Heresy was going on, so the only option was a (under)ground war.

[Legatus]

that's the thing that lets me down: without nicodemus' offering, it would have been dantioch's own choice. All this character did was spoil that chance and take the limelight with his deus ex machina appearance. as it is, the story shows that "the iron within" the old iron warrior veteran supposedly isn't very strong without an ultramarine wielding it ;)

Didn't Nicodemus basically just inform Dantioch about what was currently happening in the galaxy? It was a secluded outpost, and Dantioch would have been ignorant of the events otherwise. Nicodemus acted mainly as a messenger.

[Kol Saresk]

Nicodemius told him what was going on and that if he wanted to remain loyal to the Emperor, there was always the option of going to Terra and aid in the fortification of the Imperial Palace. Otherwise, the Iron Warriors would have arrived, given Dantioch the ultimatum to join or die, the same events would have played out except that Dantioch would not have known what to do and would not have had a "pardon" from a Loyalist Legion that would allow him to enter the Sol system and not be shot down since the IV Legion was declared Traitor. But maybe that's what should have happened so we can have a tragic hero and the Iron Warriors fans can be happy that a Warsmith made the choice to be loyal and was gunned down by the very people he sought to serve because he didn't have a Loyalist to speak in his defense.

 

And no, Honsou's gene-seed is part Imperial Fist and part Iron Warrior, most likely because Soulaka's gene-seed was partially damaged in the fire caused by the Imperial Fists. That's why he was called the "Half-Breed". Where the Imperial Fist gene-seed came from is left to speculation although Storm of Iron gave the impression that it was "salvaged" from the dead Imperial Fists after the Iron Cage incident.

[Nehekhare]

Really? where can I find that statement? The Lexicanum article agrees with you, but the only citation it gives is the bit with hon(orable) sou(lakas) name on the tube at the end of angel exterminatus, which does not say anything about the real honsou. as far as I recall, storm of iron indeed gave the impression that honsou was created from the geneseed harvested during the iron cage, called "half-breed" because he wasn't a true iron warrior, just adopted. I would suppose the IW would not have to rely on fabius when they have the daemonculaba on medrengard and lots of geneseed to feed it with, much less to have him give a name to any new IW recruit based on some burned tube 10,000 years earlier. I never read anything about mending of gene-seed (which doesn't mean it's not there, I'm happy to learn).

 

about dantioch: if any IW were to be gunned down at first sight, why did Guilliman send his champion to one in the first place? The eisenstein wasn't gunned down either. I guess once decided on staying true to one's ideals, making for earth would have been the logical conclusion anyway. With the possibility of it looming, dantioch's choice would have been even more heroic actually.

Neither would be tragic - for that, dantioch's last stand would have had to cause even greater harm for the loyalist side. He is rather an epic hero, staying true despite of hardship.

IMHO, Nicodemus unneeded help ruins Dantioch's heroism, because with Guilliman's personal champion holding his hand, what he does isn't overcoming his fears or idealistic endurance anymore - only walking along the path of least resistance, where everything is laid out for him (as he wouldn't have had much chance siding with the IW anyway).

 

and that is what lets me down as an IW fan: loken, garro or tarwitz didn't need an ultramarine to stand to their ideals, but the IW supposedly does :lol:

[Emperor's Furor]

If you listen to Sword of Truth you'll see why someone needs to vouch for any Legionaries coming to the Sol system.

[KarkassBC]

Really? where can I find that statement? The Lexicanum article agrees with you, but the only citation it gives is the bit with hon(orable) sou(lakas) name on the tube at the end of angel exterminatus, which does not say anything about the real honsou. as far as I recall, storm of iron indeed gave the impression that honsou was created from the geneseed harvested during the iron cage, called "half-breed" because he wasn't a true iron warrior, just adopted. I would suppose the IW would not have to rely on fabius when they have the daemonculaba on medrengard and lots of geneseed to feed it with, much less to have him give a name to any new IW recruit based on some burned tube 10,000 years earlier. I never read anything about mending of gene-seed (which doesn't mean it's not there, I'm happy to learn).

 

In the new book "The Siege of Castellax" there are two half-breed Iron Warriors. And for the open talks between the traitor marines about the use of mixed geneseeds leave to me the idea that is a widespread use. They accepted them but there is a split between "pure blood" and "bastards" (considered a second rate group).

 

Of course the book don't belong to the Horus Heresy but to the 40K timeline.

 

About the novel "Iron Within" and the character of Dantioch they are both awesome.

 

The reason for the protracted siege without regard for the overall cost for the traitor side is already written in the same novel.

Dantioch explained to Nicodemus the meaning of the arrival of reinforcement sent by Horus to break the siege. It's not a military reason because the world was not a primary target or full of resources. Horus didn't want the news about the loyalist resistance spreading out in other systems. Every news of loyalist victories or stubborn resistance could have bolstered the resolve of similar units falling in the middle between remaining loyal to the Emperor or siding with Horus and in the end giving more problems to the traitor's side.

[Kol Saresk]

If you listen to Sword of Truth you'll see why someone needs to vouch for any Legionaries coming to the Sol system.

Actually I was going off of the Raven Guard's treatment when they went to Terra and The Last Remembrancer in the Age of Darkness anthology. Very beginning of the story, a ship is gunned down because it "had appeared without warning and without the correct identification signals." Then it goes on to show that they did not give it a chance to explain its purpose and gunned it down.

 

@Nehekhare, I just woke up so I'll look through the books today to find the melding part.

 

As for the walking hall-pass being sent, Gulliman happened to find out about Dantioch, and made a bet that Dantioch was still loyal. Without that hall-pass, if Dantioch chose to go to Terra, the Sol system would see a IV Legion ship. The IV Legion are believed to be Traitors in their entirety would mean they would get the same treatment as the Sons of Horus ship mentioned above.

[Kol Saresk]

@Nehekhare; Actually I didn't have to go very far. I don't have the Storm of Iron novel at hand, just the Iron Warriors omnibus so that's the page number I'll use. On page 51, here's what we see:

 

To be created from the gene-seed of the enemy was an insult both to himself and that enemy, and a constant reminder that he was not pure, not of true Iron Warrior stock, despite those fragments of gene-seed that had come from the chosen of Olympia.

[Týr]

and that is what lets me down as an IW fan: loken, garro or tarwitz didn't need an ultramarine to stand to their ideals, but the IW supposedly does :P

 

I don't think you should see the story like that. Of course it could have been written with only IW vs IW and still have the same outcome.

But the Ultramarine added tension and mystery to a story, as to what Guilliman is up to.

 

Had it been Loken and not Dantioc stationed on a planet far away, then perhaps an ultramarine would also have come to him and asked for Lokens help.

I think both Dantioc and Nicodemius both rocked in this story. I fear the story would have seemed unnessecary if Nicodemius had not been there. Then it would just be an account of a random battle within a legion.

[Nehekhare]

fragments of gene-seed that had come from the chosen of Olympia.

Ah, indeed. I read over that...thanks for the info! Now i'm intruiged about the specifics of the process. I still take the hon...sou...-thing more as the author's self-reference than a hint of genetic origin.

Doesn't change that I don't like the fact that anybody *polluted* by Dorn's seed should encompass the IV on their own ground, though. In an IF novel, sure. In codex: space marines, maybe. But not in the stories that belong to my legion!. Yes, again: I'm biased. But that is what I want to read. the IV should have it's own heroes.

 

@karkassbc: yeah maybe. But just think of it: would dantiocs choice have been more heroic with or without the safeguard the UM provided?

 

@tyr: exactly the opposite (for me). I'm not interested in any allusions to guillimans mastermind behind it all. does that really further any character's development? it's not mysterious or tense, it's more of a comic relief actually: "just as planned". In the grad scheme of things, dantioch's experience with siege tactics would have been essential to the defense of the imperial palace either way. Imagine how he himself could have made his way to terra, maybe encountering guilliman on the way like garro, having to argue with dorn and earn his trust. I was only interested in the story because it was IW against IW.

With Nicodemus' offer, Dantioch is less a hero, more a traitor to his primarch. that may be of no importance to you if you have no particular interest in IW, of course.