Dreadnought weapon cost oddities

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Just going over the list, and I thought about using my dreadnough again, and looked at the hellbrute option, does anyone know why the heavy flamer costs the same as a spell familiar or why swapping a multie melta for a twin linked heavy bolter is the same price as a melta bomb? both just strike me as odd, partly as Heavy flamers in most places seem to be the same price for 2 melta bombs, whilst the heavy bolter price seems more liek what you would pay if it was the other way round.

[minigun762]

I don't have a good answer. Just like in the IG codex, I don't understand why the price autocannons and heavy bolters at the same level as they aren't equivalent weapons. Autocannons and missiles would make more sense.

 

As for the heavy flamers, I could only imagine its because you can pair them up and a pair of heavy flamers will do some nasty things against infantry. That said, I think they're overpriced and I wouldn't buy them. Maybe if we had drop pods or something similar.

[zyl-]

I've been running brutes for a bit now, and while they always seem to do well, it's hard for me to finalize how I want to equip them. I think melta/flamer will probably be my final decision, but it'll require some more testing. The flamer may not make the grade for points value.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

That's the thing, I've had some luck with plasma cannon/lascannon and casting invisibilty on it (which it turns out is not that good as all it tae is an imperial guard tank to hit it with a searchlight and it's gone.) and the combat fist is moddeled with a heavy flamer, and my wolves one always took it, but in the chaos codex the fact ti costs more then a plasma cannon...

[Brother Amarel]

After a few games, I'm pretty settled on the cheap & cheerful Plasma Cannon and Power Scourge. It's not expensive and it can handle itself in combat as well.

 

Its worst disaster was taking a glancing hit and then destroying itself when it fired twice on it's next turn and rolled double ones followed by a 2 and a 3 to avoid the damage.

[zyl-]

After a few games, I'm pretty settled on the cheap & cheerful Plasma Cannon and Power Scourge. It's not expensive and it can handle itself in combat as well.

 

Its worst disaster was taking a glancing hit and then destroying itself when it fired twice on it's next turn and rolled double ones followed by a 2 and a 3 to avoid the damage.

 

Plasma hazards aside, does the flail not seem a waste in the end? Reducing attacks is not a big deal in most cases, because you can't reduce below 1 attack and the most dangerous attack you face is a krak grenade against meq armies. I realize that I could sit here and mathhammer hellbrutes out of the realm of the practical, but I'm really curious as to how often the flail actually makes a difference.

[Excessus]

After a few games, I'm pretty settled on the cheap & cheerful Plasma Cannon and Power Scourge. It's not expensive and it can handle itself in combat as well.

 

Its worst disaster was taking a glancing hit and then destroying itself when it fired twice on it's next turn and rolled double ones followed by a 2 and a 3 to avoid the damage.

 

Plasma hazards aside, does the flail not seem a waste in the end? Reducing attacks is not a big deal in most cases, because you can't reduce below 1 attack and the most dangerous attack you face is a krak grenade against meq armies. I realize that I could sit here and mathhammer hellbrutes out of the realm of the practical, but I'm really curious as to how often the flail actually makes a difference.

I think you misread something about the scourges...

[Sception]

scourges reduce weapon skill, not attacks, which lets you hit on 3's, and if you're lucky (1/3 chance) those kraks will need 5's to hit you back.

 

Seems decent, but I prefer the heavy flamer.

[minigun762]

As far as 'Brute loadouts, I'm moving away from my previous view of mixed weapons and considering the straight 2x power fist build. Literally just run it towards the enemy lines and hope to be a pain in the bum with it. Only 1/3 of the crazed results will stop me and unlike the last version, I don't have to make a crazed roll each turn. I figure he'll take some heat off my defilers and rhinos.

[zyl-]

As far as 'Brute loadouts, I'm moving away from my previous view of mixed weapons and considering the straight 2x power fist build. Literally just run it towards the enemy lines and hope to be a pain in the bum with it. Only 1/3 of the crazed results will stop me and unlike the last version, I don't have to make a crazed roll each turn. I figure he'll take some heat off my defilers and rhinos.

 

I have been running this for a few games, and I think I can safely say it is not the optimal way to go. I've found that everything 2 power fists can do can be done better with a meltagun/powerfist setup with the exception of pulling out of a tarpit. If we could drop pod them, outflank them, or any other way of getting them annoyingly close to the enemy quick I would probably change my mind here, but we are not loyalists so we must suffer.

[minigun762]

I have been running this for a few games, and I think I can safely say it is not the optimal way to go. I've found that everything 2 power fists can do can be done better with a meltagun/powerfist setup with the exception of pulling out of a tarpit. If we could drop pod them, outflank them, or any other way of getting them annoyingly close to the enemy quick I would probably change my mind here, but we are not loyalists so we must suffer.

 

You don't think the extra attack or backup weapon is better than the 1-2 melta shots you're likely to fire off?

 

I was thinking of the common complaints with the maulerfiend (poor WS, I values and lack of attacks) could maybe fill the same roll while being cheaper and using a less valuable FOC slot (albeit much slower).

[zyl-]

Here's why I say that from personal experience.

 

Charging marines, you will die to krak grenades before they fall back. I know it doesn't seem likely, but it's happened too many times to me. In my mind, the multimelta shot before the charge is better than an extra pf attack, and if you don't win first round it's not looking good. Same with Terminators.

 

Charging cultists, you are just gonna plow through them and make them turn tail because "our weapons are useless".

 

Charging a vehicle, once again the multimelta shot is even better than a fist in terms of pen hits within 12 inches, and you get an extra chance to hit in at 24' unless you run.

 

Fire frenzy can actually be used with a multimelta

 

The only downside is that twin heavy flamers can overwatch like none other, but you can still get 1 heavy flamer with a meltagun.

[minigun762]

Interesting, I will have to reconsider my use of the fisty 'brute then.

 

I will admit a large part of my interest in him is the cheapish price tag and the general lack of effective elites out there.

[Lieutenant Steel]

I've definitely wondered what was up with the cost of the weapons on our new Dreads.

 

I've also been looking at taking either a couple, or three, Helbrutes in a new CSm force for the same reasons- lack of other Elite units that I want and to add to armour saturation; I'd also been looking at taking the 2xPF and Heavy Flamers combo for what I thought looked like a very aggressive build. I like the argument for the multi-melta now that I've heard it [it also sounds good against any enemies that are WS4+ as you'll hit with your BS more easily than the extra close combat attack would] but I would still be a little worried about weapon redundancy, i.e. someone knocking out your only PF and you being left to struggle (don't have my rulebook but isn't it S6 AP- after that?) against anything better than GEQ.

 

What are peoples thoughts on the pros and cons of Power Scourges vs. Powerfists on our 'Brutes? I like the look of them more as they should help fend off pesky grenades as someone mentioned earlier, and allow more of your attacks to land against WS4 opponents- and they're still strong enough to insta-gib MEQ characters and the like.

 

Would 2x Power Scourges be any more of a viable build than 2xPF (probably with twin Heavy Flamers)?

 

The more I think about it the more I just start leaning towards taking 'shootier' Dreads... I mean Brutes and leaving them to enjoy the benefits of cover rather than move them out/ toward the enemy when they don't seem that strong/ survivable in close combat.