Crimson Fist Vets using pre Heresy Armour ?

[Torken]

Hi guys ,

 

I'm going to be starting a Crimson Fists army in the new year and have a question regarding armour types available to me .

 

I really love the MKII and MKIII forge world armour varients . My concern is that although the Crimson Fists were founded post Heresy how available would the MKII & III have been to their veteran squads ? I would like my army to be reasonably accurate in respect to the fluff .

 

Many thanks ,

 

T

[Bannus]

Because the Crimson Fists were founded by splitting an existing Legion, it would have access to the same armor types as either of the other two (Imperial Fists and Black Templars).

[Torken]

Thanks for the reply ,

 

I suppose I was a little worried that the Crimson fists were originally formed from the newer elements of the Imperial Fists and so thought that perhaps they would have the "newer armour varients" . I guess you couldn't form a Chapter from all fresh blood so I can let my personal wishes take precedent to an extent ?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Now that being said, I wouldn't overdo it with the old armor marks. Since such a huge proportion of their personnel and equipment were wiped out on Rynn's World, most of their armor would be new construction -- meaning Mk. VII and Mk. VIII, with a little Mk. VI thrown in for variation (since many Chapters still manufacture the Corvus-pattern). I'd say a good rule of thumb would be about 10% of your models in older marks, maybe 15%. But that's just me.

[Vodunius]

since many Chapters still manufacture the Corvus-pattern

 

That is based on an extrapolation of the original WD129 article saying that many chapters chose to continue with MkVI rather than adopt MkVII, the same article also stated that many modern chapters make use of MkIII for boarding actions so by the same logic MkIII is also still produced. Note the 'for boarding actions' there are two ways this would work: dedicated boarding squads (which would be a codex deviancy I believe) who wear it 24/7 or else the suits are kept in storage and donned only when needed much like Terminator armour. In which case it makes sense that at least some of the suits would be stored aboard the chapters vessels where - if the Crimson Fists do use MkIII - they would have survived the destruction of the fortress monastery and be available for making up the shortfall - either being issued to veterans or even issued to n00bs.

 

I'm a bit iffy about MkII but I can see pretty much all later marks being manufactured somewhere by someone - in which case I can easily see a Crimson Fist force having any such armour in notable numbers.

[Bannus]

Now that being said, I wouldn't overdo it with the old armor marks. Since such a huge proportion of their personnel and equipment were wiped out on Rynn's World, most of their armor would be new construction -- meaning Mk. VII and Mk. VIII, with a little Mk. VI thrown in for variation...

Ah, but many of the Vets (who would be equipped with the lion's share of the rare armors) survived - so the proportion of the older armor would not be significantly affected.

[Hymirl]

Or if the crimson fists had petitioned a forgeworld for supplies they may have been given the old armour from storage. You've got to put the scouts in something once they get their promotion.

[wilki1979]

TBH when a chapter is in trouble the other chapters that came from the same legion come to their aid either supplying gene-seed tech or man power so the other chapters Imperial Fists and Black Templars would help them with armour, ships, tanks and even tanks with any techpreists, apothecaries etc to help them rebuild so they would provide what ever they could for the armour marks

[Arachnid99]

My personal take would be one or two Heresy suits would be okay but probably Mk 4 rather than Mk 2 or 3. The Crimson Fists were formed from the newest recruits so were much more likely to be equipped with Mk 4 or later from the start and the combination of Rynn's World and 10k of attrition means I doubt many of those suits are left functioning and unlike the Iron Hands they aren't going to be making their own sets. With the exception of Heresy era forces being used for 40k I personally think any more than one or two relic suits is dodgy, remember 10k of constant war means the odds of a suit surviving are infinitesimally small and with so few suits around they aren't going to be used by line marines.

[Grizzly_bear]

I am currently doing a crimson fists army and I use a fair mix of armour mark parts spread out due to salvage and and aid from Rynns world and the two brother chapters helping out there in need brother chapter.

 

I've always looked more towards MKVI as they were originally pictured with that armour MK

[Kastor Krieg]

As far as I know, the Crimson Fists were always (probably because of some of the illustrations) something like THE iconic chapter for Beakie Marines. So if you can get your hands on the beakie helmets and the full "knee-less" shins, you're set ^_^

[Grizzly_bear]

As far as I know, the Crimson Fists were always (probably because of some of the illustrations) something like THE iconic chapter for Beakie Marines. So if you can get your hands on the beakie helmets and the full "knee-less" shins, you're set :D

 

 

This is so true, I currently have over 40 MKVI helmets to add to my Crimson fists.

 

But also as someone pointed out that the 1st company survived the Rynns world disaster, id still dot older MK suit parts here and there on the 'basic' marines as they would've scavenged parts from the monastery when they returned to start re building the fortress etc.

 

Rob

[Arachnid99]

As far as I know, the Crimson Fists were always (probably because of some of the illustrations) something like THE iconic chapter for Beakie Marines. So if you can get your hands on the beakie helmets and the full "knee-less" shins, you're set :)

 

Surely Raven Guard are the iconic beaky marines?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I must admit, I like the idea that whilst the MkvII-VII is the newer own, most chapters only grudgingly use it, preferring the earlier marks.

[ZAChos]

I don't actually see the heresy era armours as just heresy. With the state of data storage in 40k not all forgeworlds will have the blueprints to all armours, and not many magi would be willing to share. As such, not all "heresy" armours will be from the heresy. Some will be just from a small forge, who are just continuing on churning out the same armours theyhave for years.

[Death Spectre]

 

since many Chapters still manufacture the Corvus-pattern

That is based on an extrapolation of the original WD129 article saying that many chapters chose to continue with MkVI rather than adopt MkVII, the same article also stated that many modern chapters make use of MkIII for boarding actions so by the same logic MkIII is also still produced. Note the 'for boarding actions' there are two ways this would work: dedicated boarding squads (which would be a codex deviancy I believe) who wear it 24/7 or else the suits are kept in storage and donned only when needed much like Terminator armour. In which case it makes sense that at least some of the suits would be stored aboard the chapters vessels where - if the Crimson Fists do use MkIII - they would have survived the destruction of the fortress monastery and be available for making up the shortfall - either being issued to veterans or even issued to n00bs.

In the novel "Salvation's Reach" Gaunt Ghosts are assisted by 3 Astartes (from 3 different chapters, but...) who help spearhead a what is considered a potentially suicidal raid on an enemy space station. Despite the low chance of survival, they make use of boarding plate armor, together with boarding shields. It is specifically stated that these are separate suits, and they each have another set of armor that they wear before and after the operation. The Forgeworld series on the Badab war also introduces the concept of "Void Hardened" armor. Although power armor can operate in a vaccum, void hardened armor has had additional reinforcement and back-up systems fitted to make it more resilent and effective in that sort of environment. Sort of like Artificer armor for the depths of space. 

So there is some precedent for what you suggest.

 

Another thing I would point out is that, despite the Chapter Monastery being destroyed by a big explosion, there could have been some salvage recovered later. The Rynn's World novel has a scene immediately after the explosion, in which Kantor has come to and experiences regret that they don't have an Apothecary along to reclaim the geneseed of the fallen brothers. This would imply that there were some organic remains left, and by extension some of their armor could have been reclaimed. I think they end up burning the remains to avoid desecration. It might have required months of digging, but I'm sure they would have gone back to see what could be recovered and reused/repaired. As others have suggested, however, there probably would not have been much. Perhaps a solution would be to use pieces of Mark III or IV (e.g. a helmet, greaves) mixed with VII? There is a precedent for this in C:SM which has a picture of the entire Ultramarine's Second Company: you can pick out bits of Mark V and other marks here and there. Thats what I'm doing with my own army.

[Zopha]

It might have required months of digging, but I'm sure they would have gone back to see what could be recovered and reused/repaired. As others have suggested, however, there probably would not have been much. Perhaps a solution would be to use pieces of Mark III or IV (e.g. a helmet, greaves) mixed with VII? There is a precedent for this in C:SM which has a picture of the entire Ultramarine's Second Company: you can pick out bits of Mark V and other marks here and there. Thats what I'm doing with my own army.

 

 

I've gotten some MkV suits, MkIV torsos and MkII heads from FW that I'll be using in that way, mixing other marks in to get a good variety.

 

I can't remember much from the Rynns World book, did it mention that all ships of the chapter where at Rynn's world? If any where out of the system at the time then they more than likely have small detachments of marines on board along with equipment, armour (including void-hardened boarding armour) and possibly chapter relics. That's another source of equipment if you want to keep a fluffy post-Rynn's world invasion Cirmson Fists force. Even with quite a bit of debris in orbit from the Ork ships I can't imagine any chapter just getting out the garbage scows and dumping it all in to the local sun. If any of those chapter ships carried a relic, rare piece of equipment or even a hero of the chapter held in a dreadnought sarcophagi they'd have chapter serfs or the Mechanicus searching through the wrecks just in case something survived.

[Grizzly_bear]

All of the marines were deployed on the ground. The only space marine mentioned in space is the fleet master. But the chapter as a whole was left on planet,

 

Full 1st company, 2nd company elements of 3rd, 8th, 9th and 10th at new rynn city

 

2 squads of Sternguard at the space port

 

The rest of the chapter at the monastery.

 

As I said earlier in the post I'm sticking a lot to the old pictures fluff and using MKVI a lot

 

But this is YOUR army. If you want 30 Sternguard in MKIII then so be it.

[Bannus]

As I mentioned before, you can easily justify any proportion on antique suits of armor in your army. Even though the losses among the Crimson Fists were high, a significant portion of their veteran forces survived - which is where the majority of these suits would have been distributed to. So the majority of the losses in material among the Crimson Fists would probably have been among the newer Mk's of armor and not the older.

[Excubitor]

All of the marines were deployed on the ground. The only space marine mentioned in space is the fleet master. But the chapter as a whole was left on planet,

 

Full 1st company, 2nd company elements of 3rd, 8th, 9th and 10th at new rynn city

 

2 squads of Sternguard at the space port

 

The rest of the chapter at the monastery.

 

As I said earlier in the post I'm sticking a lot to the old pictures fluff and using MKVI a lot

 

But this is YOUR army. If you want 30 Sternguard in MKIII then so be it.

 

Just to point something out - tactically speaking, when deploying to defend a strongpoint, you don't just "man the walls". You also have prepared positions outside before the walls to slow down and inflict maximum damage before the siege. Something similar happened at the Emperor's palace, if I recall right. Plus you've got to take in the general robustness of Imperial, and especially Space Marine, wargear. Yes, the monastery was destroyed. Yes, the explosion would likely have killed all of those deployed at the Fortress Monastery. However, the explosion itself would not have immolated the bodies and gear of those on the wall and outside - the concussive force and debris would have been what killed them, most likely. The wargear itself would have been salvageable, to a degree. I remember reading somewhere a short story about a Land Raider that was outside the monastery gates when it went up. The crew was killed when the monastery blew up, but the machine-spirit fought on until overwhelmed if I'm remembering right.

 

Hell, considering how robust Marines themselves are, I can see the geneseed being retrievable after such an event from the less damaged bodies if you can get to them before the elements do.

 

Anyway, the point is there would have been significant amounts of salvage spread around the area of the fortress monastery. It would have needed a clean and a good repair job, but a good amount would likely have been able to be returned to service.

[Grizzly_bear]

The gene seed wasn't retrieved as the 16 survivors burnt the bodies. And you're spot on about reading about a LR surviving

[W0lfie]

It could be argued either way; the Crimson fists were imperial fists who were renamed and split, and therefore would have access to Imperial Fist gear.  On the other hand, the Imperial Fists were the ones who recovered the (at the time) new Mk VII armour, so they would probably have been wearing it almost exclusively by the time the split happened.

[goldenwonder]

I tend to agree with Bannus as far as background supporting the presence of older marks of armour. Contemporary Fists would have access to the early armour types, particularly for veterans as it these who survived Rynns World in the greatest number and these who are assigned the more venerable and prized suits of older mark armour.

 

For what it's worth, I am using mk3 and mk5 for my Sternguard, a unit of 10 in each mark.

[ulllyssies0110]

As far as I know, the Crimson Fists were always (probably because of some of the illustrations) something like THE iconic chapter for Beakie Marines. So if you can get your hands on the beakie helmets and the full "knee-less" shins, you're set

Surely Raven Guard are the iconic beaky marines?

Well MK VI is calles corvis after Corax and His Raven Guard But I love Beaky's So all my Marine armies have them As for the Topic I would use MK II & MK III