Havoks VS Obliterators

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hmm, just wondering since we are talking about Havoc setups a little, what do y'all think of 5 Havocs with 2 MLs with Flak and 2 AC?

 

When I was still trailling our new 'dex, that's what I settled on -- seven guys and MoN for a little extra staying power. I never had the opportunity to try to shoot down a Flyer, but they worked well against flying MCs. The flakks give you solid numbers to force a grounding test, and I pulled a DP and a winged tyrant out of the air this way so that all of the plasma-carriers in the army could go to town and not worry about needing 6's to hit.

 

It's also reasonably effective against light armor, and only taking two sets of flakk missiles saves you a bundle of points.

 

 

Like I said, the 4 Plasmaguns worked. People always expect Havocx to just sit back, but sometimes it's nice to have a 10 man Marine squad running forward with 4 special weapons.

What about Chosen who don't use up your precious Heavy Support? That would be my only qualm about spec-weap Havocs.

 

The problem with Chosen for massed special weaponry is their expense. Using Havocs instead allows you to take more warm bodies to act as sponges for your riflemen at comparable costs for a minimum squad of Chosen with the same number and type of weapon. They do chew up a precious Heavy slot, but given that you can tack on that many more bolters, grenades, and swinging richards makes up for it.

[the jeske]

only bolters or str 4p ap- hth attacks kind of a suck in a game where most stuff is t4 +3 sv .

[Kol Saresk]

Like I said, the 4 Plasmaguns worked. People always expect Havocx to just sit back, but sometimes it's nice to have a 10 man Marine squad running forward with 4 special weapons.

What about Chosen who don't use up your precious Heavy Support? That would be my only qualm about spec-weap Havocs.

Well it depends on whether or not you view your Heavy Support slot to be as, if not more, valuable than your Elite slot. Some people see HS>Elite, some HS=Elite and others HS<Elite. The man's argument does make sense that he an make a rather cheap suicide unit of a Havoc squad. Is it what I would do with a Heavy support slot? No, but that's just me. He may not play a long-range shooting army so to him, a 36 inch shooting unit would be a waste. It may not be necessarily efficient for building an entire army, but if all we're doing is comparing the cheapest plasmacide units, a 5-man Havocs with 4 Plasma wins I believe at 115 points versus a 5-man Chosen with 4 Plasma at 150 points.

 

Will it ever be an efficient use? Probably not. But he can spend the points he's saving on the Chosen plasmacide and spend them towards Troops, FA, Elites or HQ.

[Deadman Wade]

5-man havoc squad with 4 plasmas is 135 pts, 5 man chosen with 4 plasmas is 150. Difference between them is 2 melee attacks. Also, chosen can take up to 5 special wepons, it's 193 pts for 5 plasmaguns and one combi-plasma, while havocs have only 4. Personaly, I prefer 4 AC or 4 Lascannon havocs over Obliterators, and 5 special weapons chosen over same special weapon havocs. For some reason, obliterators draw much more enemy attention than havocs and usually go down pretty fast.

[Kol Saresk]

My mistake. I was tired so I missed 20 points so I apologize. And yes, I know Chosen can have 5 special weapons. If you add a sixth model and give the champion a combi-weapon, for one turn you can have six.

 

Point still stands, if he isn't planning on really using Heavy Support and all he wants is a cheap plasmacide squad, while not as effective, it is still cheaper to do the Havoc. Smart? Eh. Effective? Maybe. Efficient? Points-wise yes, army-wise most likely not.

[Kythnos]

Hmm, just wondering since we are talking about Havoc setups a little, what do y'all think of 5 Havocs with 2 MLs with Flak and 2 AC?

 

I did that against a DE army and it worked reasonably well. They were kept save inside a defensively placed Rhino and there were always two Havocs shooting out of the top hatch, depending on the available targets. At the same time, the Rhino was annoying the squishy dark eldar with its havoc launcher, after they were shot out of their transports. Sure, you're giving up half of the shooting power of the unit each turn played this way, but in this particular game it worked for me and kept my backfield save.

 

I have no idea how the DE managed not to destroy your Rhino by the end of Turn One.

 

More pressing concerns in to his front than a measly Rhino somewhere in my backfield that he couldn't draw that much LOS to.

[UglyWretch]

My mistake. I was tired so I missed 20 points so I apologize. And yes, I know Chosen can have 5 special weapons. If you add a sixth model and give the champion a combi-weapon, for one turn you can have six.

 

Point still stands, if he isn't planning on really using Heavy Support and all he wants is a cheap plasmacide squad, while not as effective, it is still cheaper to do the Havoc. Smart? Eh. Effective? Maybe. Efficient? Points-wise yes, army-wise most likely not.

I usually do end up using my Elites more than Heavy Support. Sitting still is kinda suicidal in my club against IG, Eldar and the likes. But one of the main differences is that most often people watching you set up go "What're those?" And your say "Havocs." So they think 'Right, Havocs, they're just gonna sit there. I'll just avoid them' where as if they're Chosen, people keep an eye on them. I must point out that in this game I had 3 units of Havocs. It was a last minute throw together army. I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

[Excessus]

My mistake. I was tired so I missed 20 points so I apologize. And yes, I know Chosen can have 5 special weapons. If you add a sixth model and give the champion a combi-weapon, for one turn you can have six.

 

Point still stands, if he isn't planning on really using Heavy Support and all he wants is a cheap plasmacide squad, while not as effective, it is still cheaper to do the Havoc. Smart? Eh. Effective? Maybe. Efficient? Points-wise yes, army-wise most likely not.

I usually do end up using my Elites more than Heavy Support. Sitting still is kinda suicidal in my club against IG, Eldar and the likes. But one of the main differences is that most often people watching you set up go "What're those?" And your say "Havocs." So they think 'Right, Havocs, they're just gonna sit there. I'll just avoid them' where as if they're Chosen, people keep an eye on them. I must point out that in this game I had 3 units of Havocs. It was a last minute throw together army. I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

They'll just ignore them? Ignore them and their 48" cannons that are good att killing off light vehicles?

[the jeske]

I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

For the first time in a very long time , I just didnt knew what to write about this set up . I tried for like 10 min . And I still have no idea what kind of a match ups require the use of 2 flamers a single RL and a single AC . list building on this level is beyond my ability to comprehand.

[UglyWretch]

I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

For the first time in a very long time , I just didnt knew what to write about this set up . I tried for like 10 min . And I still have no idea what kind of a match ups require the use of 2 flamers a single RL and a single AC . list building on this level is beyond my ability to comprehand.

It was experimenting with whatever models I had to hand at the time. And I knew the AC and ML would get targeted so I threw the Flamers in to A- Take the wounds, B- to burn the beejesus out of anyone who got close.

I find the "list building on this level is beyond my ability to comprehend" rather condescending. I like to try and think outside the box and try different tactics. You might just spam your 'set' squads. People like me are the inovators who will try that quirky combo you've never even considered. And to prove the point, that Havoc squad did ok. So did the Plasmas. The Heavy Bolters were avoided and had blocked LOS until the enemy got up close and wiped them out. That's where the Flamers came in. My club uses scenery. Smart opponents can avoid long range LOS and in my club we do very often. People who look at the weapon, the range and the rules and just use them, well that's fine if all your games are played on open ground.

[eastern barbarian]

Fair play for experimenting mate :D I can see a certain logic behind it and might give it a go myself at some point.

[UglyWretch]

Fair play for experimenting mate :D I can see a certain logic behind it and might give it a go myself at some point.

Cheers!

It's also not a bad plan if you give them a Rhino- Flamers for if you move up close, heavies if you sit still and shoot.

[nhaunter]

I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

For the first time in a very long time , I just didnt knew what to write about this set up . I tried for like 10 min . And I still have no idea what kind of a match ups require the use of 2 flamers a single RL and a single AC . list building on this level is beyond my ability to comprehand.

 

I am fairly new to posting on this forum but have been long time reader.

This question is for you Jeske.

Why do you have such arrogant stand in front of everyone, I see you post here on Chaos topics like you won at least two big tourneys. So could you answer me that, have you won anything significant to back up your attitude.

Also have you considered that someone is still playing 40k like it is a game and that not everyone plays to WAAC. I dont give a c..p about "math hammer" (that single word impersonate everything bad in this game since its inclusion) because in the end everything depends on dice (luck) and most of all it should be fun game with your friends.

[UglyWretch]

I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

For the first time in a very long time , I just didnt knew what to write about this set up . I tried for like 10 min . And I still have no idea what kind of a match ups require the use of 2 flamers a single RL and a single AC . list building on this level is beyond my ability to comprehand.

 

I am fairly new to posting on this forum but have been long time reader.

This question is for you Jeske.

Why do you have such arrogant stand in front of everyone, I see you post here on Chaos topics like you won at least two big tourneys. So could you answer me that, have you won anything significant to back up your attitude.

Also have you considered that someone is still playing 40k like it is a game and that not everyone plays to WAAC. I dont give a c..p about "math hammer" (that single word impersonate everything bad in this game since its inclusion) because in the end everything depends on dice (luck) and most of all it should be fun game with your friends.

I wasn't gonna be that personal about it, but I agree 100% with your attitude towards people taking the GAME too seriously!

[Spaz431]

I suggest pulling in an extra 100 points max (possibly x2) for aegis defense lines to sit havocs in. You give them 4+ cover. And more fire power.

[Brother Amarel]

To be fair here, it is a very odd selection of weapons to group together, so I don't think it's particularly out of line for someone to point out that they find it a confusing mix.

 

Most people know that Jeske builds for competitiveness and comments on other people's lists based on this, which is generally appreciated. Personally I don't really care how many, if any, tournaments he's won as long as I can see the sense and value in his feedback. However, if you're building and playing purely for fun, or just using what's at hand, then it's probably worth taking any comments that discuss competitiveness with a pinch of salt.

[Azekai]

Why do you have such arrogant stand in front of everyone, I see you post here on Chaos topics like you won at least two big tourneys. So could you answer me that, have you won anything significant to back up your attitude.

Well, asking for proof of much of anything over the internet strikes me as silly, but the Jeske's meta is pretty cutthroat.

 

Also have you considered that someone is still playing 40k like it is a game and that not everyone plays to WAAC. I dont give a c..p about "math hammer" (that single word impersonate everything bad in this game since its inclusion) because in the end everything depends on dice (luck) and most of all it should be fun game with your friends.

I think in this case the Jeske would simply refer you to his signature quote.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

To be fair here, it is a very odd selection of weapons to group together, so I don't think it's particularly out of line for someone to point out that they find it a confusing mix.

 

Most people know that Jeske builds for competitiveness and comments on other people's lists based on this, which is generally appreciated. Personally I don't really care how many, if any, tournaments he's won as long as I can see the sense and value in his feedback. However, if you're building and playing purely for fun, or just using what's at hand, then it's probably worth taking any comments that discuss competitiveness with a pinch of salt.

 

I don't think the main objection was to what he says - it's how he says it.

[Sception]

So? Jeske's the endearingly grumpy old curmudgeon. He's got character. Not a pleasant character, but I still find it fun. Having Oscar around makes Sesame Street more fun than it would be if everyone were Big Bird or Elmo, and his competitive advice is generally sound, and also pretty blatantly from that kind of perspective, so it's easy to look past when you know that's not what you're going for.

 

If ever you get bitter at him for saying something mean (if, perhaps, also true), just remind yourself that he has to live in a garbage can, and his only friend is a worm, and you'll feel better. Heck, Jeske likes his garbage can, so you don't even have to feel bad for him.

[Excessus]

Well malisteen, him being grumpy can easily be seen as being arrogant and hostile to many people. And I can see where they are coming from really since I play Alpha Legion myself and have that self-imposed handicap to go with. Although I often agree with jeske that in a cutthroat environment his advice are often good, but there are many other ways to play for people that likes campaigns or that have their themes and favorite models/units and so on. Sure, this is not going to keep up to the hard-as-nails necron, ig or gk armies out there(but what the heck, even our most competetive csm lists wont), but perhaps they do well in their own environments...

 

Being angry with jeske for it is like being angry at a wall that was built in the wrong place though, just accept that it is there and you can walk around it instead...

[Azekai]

Jeske's the endearingly grumpy old curmudgeon. He's got character. Not a pleasant character, but I still find it fun. Having Oscar around makes Sesame Street more fun than it would be if everyone were Big Bird or Elmo, and his competitive advice is generally sound, and also pretty blatantly from that kind of perspective, so it's easy to look past when you know that's not what you're going for.

Quite so. There is also the language barrier to consider- and I am not being condescending here. Tone (especially online) can be a challenge for native speakers to master. If a none-native speaker comes off as prickly it hardly bothers me.

 

I call dibs on being Bert, by the way.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Jeske's the endearingly grumpy old curmudgeon. He's got character. Not a pleasant character, but I still find it fun. Having Oscar around makes Sesame Street more fun than it would be if everyone were Big Bird or Elmo, and his competitive advice is generally sound, and also pretty blatantly from that kind of perspective, so it's easy to look past when you know that's not what you're going for.

Quite so. I there is also the language barrier to consider- and I am not being condescending here. Tone (especially online) can be a challenge for native speakers to master. If a none-native speaker comes off as prickly it hardly bothers me.

 

I call dibs on being Bert, by the way.

 

Fine by me, but the Helchicken gets to be Big Bird.

[Sception]

Well malisteen, him being grumpy can easily be seen as being arrogant and hostile to many people. And I can see where they are coming from really since I play Alpha Legion myself and have that self-imposed handicap to go with. Although I often agree with jeske that in a cutthroat environment his advice are often good, but there are many other ways to play for people that likes campaigns or that have their themes and favorite models/units and so on. Sure, this is not going to keep up to the hard-as-nails necron, ig or gk armies out there(but what the heck, even our most competetive csm lists wont), but perhaps they do well in their own environments...

 

Being angry with jeske for it is like being angry at a wall that was built in the wrong place though, just accept that it is there and you can walk around it instead...

 

While you're right that there are as many different ways to play the game as there are players, internet discussion boards are a far more effective medium for conveying some of those methods than others. Theoryhammer and statistical investigations can be done online, but if you only care about games played, well, we can't play the game online, can we? One can have a serious debate about whether one unit or another is more effective in a generic, all comers environment, but there's little point discussing which units are 'more fun' or more effective against an individual player's particular opponents because those questions are simply too subjective. Not that more general competitive discussion is completely objective, but just because nothing is black or white and everything is a shade of grey, doesn't mean that everything is the same shade of grey.

 

So while there are plenty of right ways to play the game, there are fewer useful ways the talk about it in an impersonal, text-based online forum environment. Doesn't necessarily excuse the tone Jeske takes, but while it's purely a subjective preference, I like having an Oscar around. Jeske's our Oscar, our Treantmonk, our Erachima, our Sleboda. Every board has one, and I've certainly seen worse.

[Brother Amarel]

Just a reminder that this thread is supposed to be about Havoks vs Obliterators, rather than Jeske.

[Sception]

It is? Oh, right.

 

OK, so to recap my understanding of the thread so far: both are good, havocs like autocannons because missile launchers are expensive, and las is better on predators (but lashavocs are still decent), and tend to prefer shooting at light vehicles and light infantry. Oblits are versatile and pack lascannons for anti-heavy tanks, and can deep strike if for some reason doing so is favorable, but rely on having a wealth of targets so changing guns doesn't hurt them so much. If you want versatility, oblits are better than mixed guns in havoc squads. Havocs don't care much for marks in general, where as oblits live and die by the will of papa nurgle. Special weapon havocs are possible, but the extra couple guns they can field aren't generally enough to make them worth it compared to basic CSMs, which are scoring, and don't take a valuable heavy slot. Run havocs in 5s to 8s, preferably with an ADL & gun emplacement, while oblits like to run in twos to threes. Multiple units of either tend to be better than singular units of both, but a 2 & 1 split is still good. That about the long and the short of it?

 

Theoretically, I favor two pairs of nurtle oblits and a squad of 6 to 8 autohavocs manning an ADL with a quad gun or possibly icarus las, but in practice I run a mix of autocannons & missile launchers, and a defiler in place of the second oblit squad, purely for the sake of variety and aesthetic preference.