Havoks VS Obliterators

[kcwm]

The OP questions is tough. I've run a unit of Havocs in every game I've played with the new codex. I'm still partial to Obliterators, simply because of their versatility and higher survival rate, but I've only run them in one game because autocannons are sufficient for the group I play with. If I went to a tournament, I'd prefer to run a unit of both, but if I had to choose, it'd be Havocs. They are cheaper, can take cheap ablative wounds, and can stick to cover and fire their heavy hitters whereas Obliterators have to be mobile.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

The OP questions is tough. I've run a unit of Havocs in every game I've played with the new codex. I'm still partial to Obliterators, simply because of their versatility and higher survival rate, but I've only run them in one game because autocannons are sufficient for the group I play with. If I went to a tournament, I'd prefer to run a unit of both, but if I had to choose, it'd be Havocs. They are cheaper, can take cheap ablative wounds, and can stick to cover and fire their heavy hitters whereas Obliterators have to be mobile.

 

For the few more points, I'd take missile launchers on the havocs. It's just that much more (1/6) to glance/penetrate and can actually glance a land raider. Plus you can, if you want depending on the conditions, give it flakk missiles. As far as I know, there is no WYSIWYG for flakk missiles specifically, so if you have ML havocs they can or cannot be carrying flakk. The ML's also overwatch with AP3 if you get lucky enough to hit. Granted autocannons are cheaper and the difference between 4 ML and 4 AC will buy you a whole marine and then some, but unless I absolutely knew that I would only be facing light vehicles (AV11 or less) and no flyers, I'd want the security and versatility of missiles. They just seem to work better when I've used them.

[Brother Ambroz]

Storm Dragons - That's why alot of people (including myself) go with a squad or two of x2 ACs and x2 MLs with skyfire.

[zyl-]

auto cannons vs missile launchers?

 

I am actually suprised this isn't a bigger debate here. It doesn't take a lot of mathhammer to figure out that missiles can instant death meq, do more wounds with frags against meq, ravage fliers with flak, and glance even the toughest armor. Teq would be the only shortfall of missile launchers, but that's assuming you can't use frag missiles to outwound the autocannons or krak to instadeath 2 wound models. Is it as tough a choice as I'm thinking it is right now, or did I forget something?

 

Also, comparing an obliterator to a multi weapon havoc squad- particularly one that contains heavy and assault weapons- doesn't seem like the best comparison. Maybe a squad that had say.. missile launchers, lascannons, and autocannons would be better, but that's still tactically eclectic at best.

[Sception]

At one shot apiece and only strength seven, 'ravage' fliers is a particularly strong term there. Also, the cost of missile launchers with flakk upgrade is so much greater than autocannons that you can afford three squads of autohavocs for the price of two squads of flakkhavocs. Or, more significantly, for the cost of two squads of flakkhavocs, you can have two squads of autohavocs plus a quadcannon ADL and have some points left over.

 

It's a lot of points, is what I'm saying, more than the difference is worth in my opinion and that of some others. The autocannons are superior against non-meq infantry and light vehicles, and aren't enough worse against light fliers to be worth the price difference. If you're looking for the versatility to also take on mid or heavy vehicles and infantry, then you're better off looking at obliterators, who do the versatility thing better.

 

Flakkhavocs aren't terrible, but they're just not as efficient as autohavocs, and with our codex so full of expensive units and options, that efficiency matters.

[zyl-]

I would say that a missile launcher's frag missiles would most likely be more effective against horde armies, or at least in my area. Due simply to the restraints of space on the table, horde armies tend to deploy and move in tight clumps, which are very vulnerable to the blast templates a missile launcher unit can deploy. I'll do some math later tonight and edit this post to include my musings. Mostly just to see what I come up with, as I'm perfectly willing to be mathmatically wrong, so long as my math is good.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I would say that a missile launcher's frag missiles would most likely be more effective against horde armies, or at least in my area. Due simply to the restraints of space on the table, horde armies tend to deploy and move in tight clumps, which are very vulnerable to the blast templates a missile launcher unit can deploy. I'll do some math later tonight and edit this post to include my musings. Mostly just to see what I come up with, as I'm perfectly willing to be mathmatically wrong, so long as my math is good.

 

I want to play where you play. Where I play, horde army players have become quite adept at either deploying their models so that you'll never get more than 2 or 3 beneath a small plate, or are running multiple Tervigons and just replacing every little gribbly you kill with 2 or 3 more that look just like it. I'd be a lot more keen on frag missiles if my meta wasn't so good at measuring out 2" between models.

[Tking]

Hi guys iv been away for a few days and all I can say is wow I was not expecting this many replies.

Thanks for the help every one.

Tking

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I would say that a missile launcher's frag missiles would most likely be more effective against horde armies, or at least in my area. Due simply to the restraints of space on the table, horde armies tend to deploy and move in tight clumps, which are very vulnerable to the blast templates a missile launcher unit can deploy. I'll do some math later tonight and edit this post to include my musings. Mostly just to see what I come up with, as I'm perfectly willing to be mathmatically wrong, so long as my math is good.

 

I want to play where you play. Where I play, horde army players have become quite adept at either deploying their models so that you'll never get more than 2 or 3 beneath a small plate, or are running multiple Tervigons and just replacing every little gribbly you kill with 2 or 3 more that look just like it. I'd be a lot more keen on frag missiles if my meta wasn't so good at measuring out 2" between models.

 

Sometimes they can and do disperse themselves; it happens and you take what you can get. But your AC will at best shoot one and that will be about 2/3 of the time. And here are some things to consider with dispersal: First, if the unit disperses, it takes up more of the table top area. This means that you can scatter further and still be likely to hit something. Secondly, if they are truly a hoard army, depending on the points value of the game, they can get quite crowded, especially with having to keep 2" between their units. That lessens your ability to scatter off target and it might mean they cannot disperse as much. Third, they will likely be using every scrap of terrain they can for cover saves but this also imposes limitations on them. Often they have to crowd behind the cover to use it well and that compacts them. Sometimes terrain funnels them in some manner whether it is to crowd on top of a narrow tower/hill/etc. or if they have to run through a 2" wide gape between a tank and impassible terrain. These choke points should be identified in deployment and your template users should be situated to have LOS on them. (I managed to do some serious damage to a unit of Bezerkers who were coming through a gap that was no more than 2-3 inches wide though, granted, it was with a Thunderfire. 16 hits is still fun to roll damage for.) Fourth, we have a lot of assault units, and as CAG points out in a few places, if you are assaulting them, you like them to be dispersed; it somewhat impairs their ability to fight that first assault turn because much of their horde will be out of 3" from base contact with you. Finally, if they really are dispersed so much that you would want to fire a single shot at them, you have Krak missiles which are AP3.

[Agerjag]

Sometimes they can and do disperse themselves; it happens and you take what you can get. But your AC will at best shoot one and that will be about 2/3 of the time. And here are some things to consider with dispersal: First, if the unit disperses, it takes up more of the table top area. This means that you can scatter further and still be likely to hit something. Secondly, if they are truly a hoard army, depending on the points value of the game, they can get quite crowded, especially with having to keep 2" between their units. That lessens your ability to scatter off target and it might mean they cannot disperse as much. Third, they will likely be using every scrap of terrain they can for cover saves but this also imposes limitations on them. Often they have to crowd behind the cover to use it well and that compacts them. Sometimes terrain funnels them in some manner whether it is to crowd on top of a narrow tower/hill/etc. or if they have to run through a 2" wide gape between a tank and impassible terrain. These choke points should be identified in deployment and your template users should be situated to have LOS on them. (I managed to do some serious damage to a unit of Bezerkers who were coming through a gap that was no more than 2-3 inches wide though, granted, it was with a Thunderfire. 16 hits is still fun to roll damage for.) Fourth, we have a lot of assault units, and as CAG points out in a few places, if you are assaulting them, you like them to be dispersed; it somewhat impairs their ability to fight that first assault turn because much of their horde will be out of 3" from base contact with you. Finally, if they really are dispersed so much that you would want to fire a single shot at them, you have Krak missiles which are AP3.

 

First off AC at best kill 2, not one, In general against swarms Ive found that AC kill more then ML with frags. At best you usually get 3 with lucky scatters and then you will wound less often as the str is low. Unless you play on some REALLY terrain heavy tables its really easy to spread out units. Yes against MC with a 3+ missiles are slightly better but thats a pretty specific scenario unless all you play is nids. The extra cost of flak as people have covered is inhibiting. VS most vehicles and psyflemen the 8 shots with autocannons will be better then ML. The exception is of course av 13(which is similar) and 14, where ML are not that great anyway. In most cases that I would want to take ML, LC would have been better anyway. +1 on damage table higher str and ap 2. Every other situation Id want AC.

 

Unless you play on some REALLY terrain heavy tables its really easy to spread out units.

[LordRoY]

I think Obliterators are great for mobile heavy weapon platform, while Havocs are good for holding ground and providing cover.

 

I would like people's opinion on my Havoc squad.

 

4x Autocannon + Champ + 4 extra havocs (total 9 for squad)

 

Load them into a Bastion with a Quad Gun on top.

 

Champ fires the quad gun, AC havocs on top with him, 4 extras in the middle level firing the heavy bolters (from the bastion).

 

Personally I think this is the best setup. The amount of firepower available is incredible.

 

Thoughts?

[Jacinda]

I'm not sure you can split the squad on two different levels of the bastion. You can either be embarked or on top.

[LordRoY]

I'm not sure you can split the squad on two different levels of the bastion. You can either be embarked or on top.

 

95% sure that you can put the entire squad into the bastion however you like, it has 2 levels. From what I have read you can put guys on the ground level, on the middle level, and the top and they will all be in legal unit cohesion. If I am wrong, I would like to know.

[Jacinda]

Ruins, yes. That is how it works. A Bastion follows the rules for Transport vehicles. One unit can be embarked and/or another unit can be on the roof but you can not have part of a squad embarked while another part is not. The bastion itself has a capacity of 30 while the roof is limited to how ever many models actually fit there. But in the end, a squad must either be wholely inside the Bastion not at all.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've been thinking of swapping my predators (lascannon sponsons and turretautocannon) and vindicator out as recently they have not been doing that well, and perhaps trying something like 3 havok squads, one with missile launchers (not sure on flakk) one with autocannons and one with lascannons, possibly with a defence line, what do people think?

[LordRoY]

Ruins, yes. That is how it works. A Bastion follows the rules for Transport vehicles. One unit can be embarked and/or another unit can be on the roof but you can not have part of a squad embarked while another part is not. The bastion itself has a capacity of 30 while the roof is limited to how ever many models actually fit there. But in the end, a squad must either be wholely inside the Bastion not at all.

 

You have confused me all together with your wording.

 

In my example, the entire unit of havocs (of 9) would be "embarked" into the bastion, which has 3 levels. Having 5 on the top level and 4 in the middle level would still have all of them "inside" the bastion, and I could still throw a squad of whatever into the lowest (floor) level. This is how everyone I have ever seen use the bastion use it. I am right, yes? Are you saying that being "on the roof" is not "inside" the bastion? So if the bastion is destroyed, anyone on the roof is not affected then?

[Agerjag]

I personally would do two auto and one las, defense line is of course amazing. Between defense line and AC flyers should not cause you a huge headache.

[zyl-]

ok

 

I started thinking about frag missiles vs autocannons math, and it sort of took too much time to acurately depict without making some approximations, which really defeats the purpose of math. Never the less, so long as we can agree that I have reasonable approximations, this is what I came up with for wounding a squad of 35 cultists.

 

autocannon: 8 shots x 2/3 chance to hit x 5/6 chance to wound comes to 4.44 wounds

 

frag missiles: 4 shots x 26/36 chance to hit x2 actual hits per shot x 2/3 chance to wound comes to 3.85 wounds

and here's where assumptions have to play a role

1/3 of the shots are direct hits on the scatter dice

1/6 of scatters do not move on BS 4

assuming you are shooting into a group's center, up to and including 3 inches of scatter should not put your shot out of the group, so for my example an additional 5/12 of shots will still be considered hits (representing the odds of rolling a number from 5-7 on 2d6) totaling 7/12

as for the number of hits, 2 or 3 sounds like a good way to estimate for a smart enemy (it's more like 4 or 6 when they are nice and packed), but if everything is well spread, you could actually get a direct hit for 1 wound. my calculation is going to assume 2 hits for the sake of it being an easy estimate for a smart player where it could go higher or lower. if you actually do play in a meta where people spread every single model out at max 2 inch range, then 1. i have no idea how they fit into a deployment zone, and 2. your chances to hit at least one model with the template are far higher unless they string them out to reduce scatter vectors, in which case, see 1.

 

I'm suprised it's not higher. Of course I can tell you it WILL be higher for me because in my meta people are rarely trying to get 2 inches in between models or string them out. Use the info as it applies to you.

[Sception]

I personally would do two auto and one las, defense line is of course amazing. Between defense line and AC flyers should not cause you a huge headache.

 

This. If I wanted to get the best use out of three havoc squads, I'd be looking at 2x4 autocannons and 1x4 lascannons in an ADL with a quad gun, or an icarus if AV12 fliers were common among my friends.

 

I prefer 1x autohavocs and 2x oblits, though.

[minigun762]

I personally would do two auto and one las, defense line is of course amazing. Between defense line and AC flyers should not cause you a huge headache.

 

This. If I wanted to get the best use out of three havoc squads, I'd be looking at 2x4 autocannons and 1x4 lascannons in an ADL with a quad gun, or an icarus if AV12 fliers were common among my friends.

 

I prefer 1x autohavocs and 2x oblits, though.

 

I'm leaning towards the mechanized version of this set up with hadesfiends and tri-las predators to round out my ranged firepower.

 

More on topic, I find that I must remind myself that one doesn't buy oblits if all they care about is lascannons. Havocs and predators are both cheaper and more reliable units for deploying the giant flashlights.

 

In my eyes, the new oblits' optimal range is 24" where they have access to the vast majority of their best weapons.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

In my eyes, the new oblits' optimal range is 24" where they have access to the vast majority of their best weapons.

Absolutely agree with this.

 

In every game I've played with Oblits, I've felt their short range very acutely. They still performed excellently--- but they couldn't always shoot at exactly what I wanted because of range limitations.

 

They seem to work best providing mutual support to other foot-infantry such as Plague Marines.

[Bob Marley]

To be fair, I think both have their uses. Oblits are more of your 'Jack of all trades' guys that you need for when you need 'that' weapon against 'that' target, infantry or tank. Havocs are more of your spam heavy weapons guys, who are there to apply long ranged pressure to enemies. I use a unit of each in all my lists, as they both are damned good.

[wargame insomniac]

So far in smaller games of 750 points I have tried Havocs (first time with Heavy Bolters, second time with Autocannons) and Obliterators (once Deep Striking and once footslogging).

 

The Deep Striking Obliterators worked the best when they eventually turned up, with TL meltaguns at vehicle rear armour or Heavy Flamer cutting down troops with AP4 templates. However in small games then Deep Striking Oblits were hot or miss depending on reserve rolls. So for smaller gamesI would usually footslog then, when TL Lascannons Assault Cannons come into play and then TL Plasmaguns at 12"-24".

 

For Havocs I have tried both Heavy Bolters and Autocannons. Given that they are same price I lean towards Autocannons due to the number of AV12-13 vehicles that have come across in games so far. I like the flexiibility of Missile Launchers with frag & krak- the Flakk option seems too pricey IMO. Likewise 4 Lascannons would be nice but too expensive- I would prefer a TriLas Predator of the 2 options.

 

So at the moment I am leaning to 2 squads of 3 Obliterators and 1 squad Havocs with Autocannons, possibly all with MoN for added durability.

 

Cheers

 

James

[CitadelArmyGuy]

... Likewise 4 Lascannons would be nice but too expensive- I would prefer a TriLas Predator of the 2 options.

... So at the moment I am leaning to 2 squads of 3 Obliterators and 1 squad Havocs with Autocannons, possibly all with MoN for added durability.

I'm torn about the Havocs vs Pred for Lascannon inclusion. Although that discussion would go in an open thread discussing ALL shooty-Heavy Support pitted against each other... but my comment would be 15pts gets you another LC and also greater durability (1 good pen on the Pred and its adios--- granted Pred is invulnerable to Small Arms fire but still...)

 

For Havocs Vs Oblits, honestly I've been taking a split as well except instead I run with 2 units of Havocs and 1 unit of Oblits. Cheaper overall and allows me to take 4-AC Havocs, 3-4 LC Havocs and 3 MoN Oblits.

 

Personally I wouldn't take MoN on Havocs unless you've got a Tally-List. Cheapness is a major factor Havocs have going for them. Before I ever take MoN, I'd take VotLW first for the Leadership-- that way the Champ can go up front as an ablative wound, and you are less afraid of failing morale and running off the table (Havocs tend to deploy close to that back edge as it is...)

 

Ld9 fails 1/6 (17%) but Ld8 fails 5/18 (28%). I'd say enough to be significant for a 5pt investment, if you have 5pts left over that is. Other things may generally take priority (like meltabombs or misc equip elsewhere in the list)

[Ifrit446]

For me, as of right now I'm still experimenting with my Heavy Support slots. But for fluff, I mainly use havocs and so far my Missile Launcher Havocs haven't really let me down yet :) I'm curious to see how Obliterators will fare in a tournament environment though, hope to hear some good news.

 

 

 

I had a 4 Heavy Bolter squad, 4 Plasmagun squad and a squad with 2 Flamers, 1 ML and 1 AC.

For the first time in a very long time , I just didnt knew what to write about this set up . I tried for like 10 min . And I still have no idea what kind of a match ups require the use of 2 flamers a single RL and a single AC . list building on this level is beyond my ability to comprehand.

 

Also, I'm trying to stay away from badmouthing Jeske here, and I understand that he's part of some hardcore tourney scene but his above comment has no relevance to the current discussion whatsoever. It's a condescending comment that does not add anything to the current conversation except for him thinking it's beneath him...which is bull :) That is NOT the attitude that we as forumsurfers should promote, ESPECIALLY not to fresh members here.

 

Just my two cents,

-Ifrit