Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Legatus]

The Emperor has already shown a complete lack of any leeway towards any form of religion, especially in his honor.

Something of which Lorgar somehow had been entirely unaware. This makes me wonder how important that matter really was to the Emperor, when one of his generals had never heard of such a notion before. But then this may just be one of those plot holes GW/BL opened up by carelessly rewriting their own background.

[Kol Saresk]

But he had heard of it remember? His belief was that since the Emperor denied his divinity, it meant that he truly was divine.

[Legatus]

Was he also aware that the Emperor did not tolerate any form of worship? Because he did seem pretty surprised when Malcador told him that the issue with Monarcha was it's worshipping of the Emperor. (So were many readers, I guess, since that had not been an issue in previous lore.)

[Vazzy]

Betrayer definitely proves its Angron, there's a prime example involving the Wolves. And that's all I'll say on that.

[Kol Saresk]

"The truth is the biggest lie ever told." Basically, Lorgar didn't care about the lack of tolerance, until it destroyed a city, killed a couple hundred people and slapped him right upside the face. Of course, being a Primarch granted him sort of leniency. Although that really makes you wonder just what the other two did to warrant being erased from history.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The Emperor has already shown a complete lack of any leeway towards any form of religion, especially in his honor.

Something of which Lorgar somehow had been entirely unaware. This makes me wonder how important that matter really was to the Emperor, when one of his generals had never heard of such a notion before. But then this may just be one of those plot holes GW/BL opened up by carelessly rewriting their own background.

You misunderstand me; the Emperor showed how merciless he was through censuring Lorgar :)

[Legatus]

Ah, I see.

 

It is still the case that the situation after the Heresa is drastically different from before the Heresy, though. Before the Heresy, the Emperor was personally there to lead mankind. Now his leadership is missing. Whether the loyal Primarchs believe that the Emperor himself did not know about Chaos, or whether they believe that he did, the minds of the Imperial people need to be focused on him now. The Tau doctrine is so dangerous in conjunction with converted human populations not because it promotes belief in heretic deities, but because it allows it. Similar with renegade Space Marine Chapters. They may not initially have betrayed the Imperium to side with Chaos. But without the cause of the Emperor to drive them, they will soon find other causes. When the Emperor was still alive, his edicts, transmitted throughout the human worlds, would have been enough to dispell superstitious beliefs. But now he is only a distant and unknown figurehead, and he has to be promoted to a supernatural figure in the minds of the people. The religious state of the Imperium is not just a nasty byproduct of hard times, it serves a very important purpose. Heretic elements are not hunted and eliminated because of an arbitrary decree that such things must be eliminated (or because they may be perceived as a threat to the established power structure), but because heretic thoughts alone can cause a world to be sucked into a hell dimension in a literal sense.

 

And aside from the point that some of the loyal Primarchs had already witnessed the development of Imperial Cults after the Heresy, I am certain that if the matters of Chaos Cults and their dangers were explained to a returned/awakened loyal Primarch, he would be quite capable to understand.

[Arkangilos]

I think that if he returned, he wouldn't do anything about Religion until he had won.

 

Once he had defeated Chaos, the 'Nids (for a time), the Tau, and the other races, he would start the dismantlement of the religion.

 

And he did tolerate religion. He allowed the Mechanicus to worship the machine god because if he didn't, he wouldn't have had them. He knows when to use certain things and when to demolish them, and he would know that he wouldn't be able to win if he attacked religion instantly.

 

He might not say anything on the matter, or maybe just say, "There are no gods" but he wouldn't kill anyone for it. I see him beating Chaos and saying, "Do you understand now? They are not gods, because they can be defeated." Something like that.

[jc1138]

The Emperor has already shown a complete lack of any leeway towards any form of religion, especially in his honor.

Something of which Lorgar somehow had been entirely unaware. This makes me wonder how important that matter really was to the Emperor, when one of his generals had never heard of such a notion before. But then this may just be one of those plot holes GW/BL opened up by carelessly rewriting their own background.

You misunderstand me; the Emperor showed how merciless he was through censuring Lorgar :yes:

 

It seemed like to me that the Emperor was baiting Lorgar on with his "censure" in:

1- Sending Lorgar's estranged (to say the least, they were almost enemies) brother Guilliman to witness and help carry out the action.

2- Having Malcador give it the old college try, while the Emperor himself waited in orbit. I would be offended by this if I were Lorgar, my father not facing me himself at such a time. (Perhaps the E's plan was to come down and give succor to Lorgar after the scolding was over, but that hardly fits with how the scene plays).

3- Breaking Lorgar then leaving. It's a rule of leadership to give extra effort to build up a subordinate after tearing them down (and, incidentally, to correct in private...), but the Emperor does the exact opposite, leaving Lorgar more open to Erebus/KP (pawns of the CGs).

 

Yes, this shows the Emp as merciless when he needs to be, but there's a difference between merciless and poor leadership/fathering. I'm afraid I have to side with those who cry plot-hole/needless revision on this one, unless we can get some insight into the Emperor's motivation on this, which could be quite interesting if handled well.

[Arkangilos]

The Emperor has already shown a complete lack of any leeway towards any form of religion, especially in his honor.

Something of which Lorgar somehow had been entirely unaware. This makes me wonder how important that matter really was to the Emperor, when one of his generals had never heard of such a notion before. But then this may just be one of those plot holes GW/BL opened up by carelessly rewriting their own background.

You misunderstand me; the Emperor showed how merciless he was through censuring Lorgar :yes:

 

It seemed like to me that the Emperor was baiting Lorgar on with his "censure" in:

1- Sending Lorgar's estranged (to say the least, they were almost enemies) brother Guilliman to witness and help carry out the action.

2- Having Malcador give it the old college try, while the Emperor himself waited in orbit. I would be offended by this if I were Lorgar, my father not facing me himself at such a time. (Perhaps the E's plan was to come down and give succor to Lorgar after the scolding was over, but that hardly fits with how the scene plays).

3- Breaking Lorgar then leaving. It's a rule of leadership to give extra effort to build up a subordinate after tearing them down (and, incidentally, to correct in private...), but the Emperor does the exact opposite, leaving Lorgar more open to Erebus/KP (pawns of the CGs).

 

Yes, this shows the Emp as merciless when he needs to be, but there's a difference between merciless and poor leadership/fathering. I'm afraid I have to side with those who cry plot-hole/needless revision on this one, unless we can get some insight into the Emperor's motivation on this, which could be quite interesting if handled well.

 

The first HH book tells us exactly why.

[jc1138]

The Emperor has already shown a complete lack of any leeway towards any form of religion, especially in his honor.

Something of which Lorgar somehow had been entirely unaware. This makes me wonder how important that matter really was to the Emperor, when one of his generals had never heard of such a notion before. But then this may just be one of those plot holes GW/BL opened up by carelessly rewriting their own background.

You misunderstand me; the Emperor showed how merciless he was through censuring Lorgar :P

 

It seemed like to me that the Emperor was baiting Lorgar on with his "censure" in:

1- Sending Lorgar's estranged (to say the least, they were almost enemies) brother Guilliman to witness and help carry out the action.

2- Having Malcador give it the old college try, while the Emperor himself waited in orbit. I would be offended by this if I were Lorgar, my father not facing me himself at such a time. (Perhaps the E's plan was to come down and give succor to Lorgar after the scolding was over, but that hardly fits with how the scene plays).

3- Breaking Lorgar then leaving. It's a rule of leadership to give extra effort to build up a subordinate after tearing them down (and, incidentally, to correct in private...), but the Emperor does the exact opposite, leaving Lorgar more open to Erebus/KP (pawns of the CGs).

 

Yes, this shows the Emp as merciless when he needs to be, but there's a difference between merciless and poor leadership/fathering. I'm afraid I have to side with those who cry plot-hole/needless revision on this one, unless we can get some insight into the Emperor's motivation on this, which could be quite interesting if handled well.

 

The first HH book tells us exactly why.

 

Care to elaborate? It's been awhile since I read Horus Rising and remember nothing about this in that book.

[Arkangilos]

The Emperor has already shown a complete lack of any leeway towards any form of religion, especially in his honor.

Something of which Lorgar somehow had been entirely unaware. This makes me wonder how important that matter really was to the Emperor, when one of his generals had never heard of such a notion before. But then this may just be one of those plot holes GW/BL opened up by carelessly rewriting their own background.

You misunderstand me; the Emperor showed how merciless he was through censuring Lorgar ;)

 

It seemed like to me that the Emperor was baiting Lorgar on with his "censure" in:

1- Sending Lorgar's estranged (to say the least, they were almost enemies) brother Guilliman to witness and help carry out the action.

2- Having Malcador give it the old college try, while the Emperor himself waited in orbit. I would be offended by this if I were Lorgar, my father not facing me himself at such a time. (Perhaps the E's plan was to come down and give succor to Lorgar after the scolding was over, but that hardly fits with how the scene plays).

3- Breaking Lorgar then leaving. It's a rule of leadership to give extra effort to build up a subordinate after tearing them down (and, incidentally, to correct in private...), but the Emperor does the exact opposite, leaving Lorgar more open to Erebus/KP (pawns of the CGs).

 

Yes, this shows the Emp as merciless when he needs to be, but there's a difference between merciless and poor leadership/fathering. I'm afraid I have to side with those who cry plot-hole/needless revision on this one, unless we can get some insight into the Emperor's motivation on this, which could be quite interesting if handled well.

 

The first HH book tells us exactly why.

 

Care to elaborate? It's been awhile since I read Horus Rising and remember nothing about this in that book.

 

Well, it is all from the mouth of chaos, so it isn't too reliable. However, Chaos told Horus that Emperor was seeking to destroy them and become a god.

[Kol Saresk]

Technically it was Horus in False Gods, although the fact that it is Erebus makes it a little worse. Not to mention that it's a different line then from what Lorgar got. Basically, I think this is how the "Star Child" has been reintroduced into the fluff.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Sorry for the character analysis tirade. :lol:

[DarthMarko]

But he had heard of it remember? His belief was that since the Emperor denied his divinity, it meant that he truly was divine.

Yeah, but @Kol his worship diminished very quickly, when he found something higher to worship...

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, after the Emperor smacked him upside the head, told him that what he was doing was worthless, that he needed to be a general and conquer worlds, not educate them and then Kor Phaeron told Lorgar that he had found religions strikingly similar to the Old Faith of Colchis on other worlds and that there was a possibility that the Old Faith was actually true which led to the Pilgrimage which led to Lorgar's belief that the Emperor is simply the wrong god while the Chaos pantheon are the right ones. Even now he still believes the Emperor is a god. Just not the one worthy of his worship. Hence the moniker "Corpse-God."

[jc1138]

Thanks for the expanded background, Veteran. My reading of the scene in The First Heretic (finished the book 2 days ago) was that Lorgar and Guilliman already had bad blood between them, at least on Lorgar's part. Granted, my reading was probably influenced by where I knew things would go between the WB's and the UM's (Calth, etc) but that's still how it came across to this reader.

 

PS, I really liked the book. For the Word Bearers at least, a case can be made (as others have) for Erebus and Kor Pharon having the most-negative impact on this legion.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Wouldn't want to offend anyone by talking about Lorgar in a way that doesn't make him out to be completely awesome and justified. I'll edit out this tirade.

[DarKnight]

I think by the end of Betrayer, the answer to this will be Angron by far. Lorgar and other traitors were turned to chaos, but in doing so at least gave themselves a feeling of purpose. The World Eaters mutilated their minds in order to be more like a Primarch that they willingly describe as broken, and they still don't have that feeling of fraternity, or even respect for their Primarch. Shameful.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Sorry, tirade. Don't want to demean any Lorgar fans. :P

[Augustus]

Betrayer definitely proves its Angron, there's a prime example involving the Wolves. And that's all I'll say on that.

 

This.

[Vazzy]

Actually, I'm fairly sure that all came from TFH. But it might be Aurelian. Lorgar sits down with one of his cronies (Kor Phaeron I think, but it might be Erebus, don't have it in front of me), and talks about his brothers. He laments how he never had the abilities at warfare some of the other Primarchs did, and could never match them. Guilliman is one of the ones he mentions specifically. His crony talks about how Guilliman was the one that the Emperor had chosen to succeed him and rule the Imperium if anything were to happen to the Emperor (this is supposition by that character, not confirmed fact). While it isn't stated explicitly, that's probably a fair bet on what sets Lorgar off on the Ultramarines. That idea festering over time that Guilliman was everything the Emperor wanted his Primarchs to be, and that he, Lorgar, wasn't good enough. And because the Emperor is isn't somebody Lorgar believes he can actually harm (and the fact that despite the fact that he is really angry, he still worships the Emperor at that point and cannot internally reconcile his hatred of what happened with the real target of his hatred, the Emperor), he focuses his hatred on Guilliman instead. After long enough time, and the fact that the Chaos Gods help nurture this hatred in order to further split Lorgar away from his brothers, Lorgar forgets why he was angry. Only that he is angry.

 

Lorgar's hatred for Guilliman is as intense as it is irrational. Which suggests it's probably not about Guilliman and the Ultramarines at all, but instead what they represent, and the association they have with his humiliation on Monarchia.

Emphasis mine, this is incorrect, Lorgar states as much in Betrayer.

 

'

Do you hate Guilliman this much?’ Magnus asked suddenly. ‘Do you despise him so much that crippling his Legion at Calth isn’t enough? You’ve already won. Why must you reach out to annihilate his peaceful and prosperous empire?’ Lorgar’s smile faded, but didn’t die. The scripture inked across his face smoothed into neat rows once more. ‘I don’t hate him, brother. At one point, I was jealous of him. But that was fifty years ago, and I was a different man. I have since learned that the warp is a song, Magnus, a symphony, and I am the only one willing to play it. That’s why we’re here

."

[Kol Saresk]

And since Betrayer is new, it is entirely forgiveable for Veteran Sergeant to have that opinion as he has not read it yet.

[Arkangilos]

That makes me feel even worse for Magnus, though.

[KarkassBC]

Kor Phaeron's comments only reinforce that idea, but he also puts Guilliman on that same pedestal. Even more, by basically saying that Guilliman is the Emperor Jr, he's created the situation where Lorgar's rage against the Emperor can easily be transferred onto Guilliman.

 

Not only that.

 

Magnus and Ahriman described the worlds liberated by Guilliman better than the worlds under the Emperor.

 

Maybe the project for the Emperor was Magnus on the Throne as a beacon and Guilliman as ruler of the Empire.