Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Stormbrow II]

I think by the end of Betrayer, the answer to this will be Angron by far. Lorgar and other traitors were turned to chaos, but in doing so at least gave themselves a feeling of purpose.

 

The World Eaters mutilated their minds in order to be more like a Primarch that they willingly describe as broken, and they still don't have that feeling of fraternity, or even respect for their Primarch. Shameful.

Spoilers might be needed there, braw, as not everyone has read it.

 

Betrayer definitely proves its Angron, there's a prime example involving the Wolves. And that's all I'll say on that.

I won, I won. :D

Cue Guns. >)

 

Angron was

for the War Hounds alright.

[Legatus]

So, apparently Magnus also thinks that the Word Bearers won at Calth. Great.

[KarkassBC]

So, apparently Magnus also thinks that the Word Bearers won at Calth. Great.

 

Maybe the Ultramarines remained victorious at the end, because the WB fleet made an hasty retreat from the system, but for destruction and killing, the UM lost a great part of their strenght.

 

WB lost but UM were crippled at Calth.

[Augustus]

WB won a pyrrhic victory. Considering what was actually in store for the Ultramarines, they won a huge, yet bitter, victory.

[DarKnight]

Lorgar himself feels Calth was a loss, the Ruinstorm as well as the poisoning of the sun, though not insignificant, seems to be the only victory the Word Bearers can claim from their attack.

[Emperor's Furor]

I agree, Angron's effect on the legion was quite massive, they didn't even like him when they found him but they still undertook the nails to try to get closer to him.

[Kol Saresk]

Wasn't the main point of Calth to ignite the Ruinstorm? The Word Bearers did that.

To ignite the Ruinstorm and at least wound the Ultramarines. For all intents and purposes, the Word Bearers succeeded. It only "went bad" on the surface when a few of the Ultramarines survived, became an improbability and set up a resistance that was actually quite effective. It was a pyrrhic victory for both sides, but it worked for the Word Bearers because they achieved all of their objectives: Start the Ruinstorm and keep the Ultramarines in Ultramar. It didn't cripple the Ultramarines like they originally planned, but that is probably why the Shadow Crusade is happening. No I haven't read Betrayer yet, I won't get my copy until Wednesday most likely so please don't even think about spoiling it for me.

[Vazzy]

And since Betrayer is new, it is entirely forgiveable for Veteran Sergeant to have that opinion as he has not read it yet.

 

 

Oh definitely, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. If I did I apologize Veteran Sergeant, I'm just saying, apparently Lorgar never hated Guilliman, which, if I hadn't read it myself, I would've doubted.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Apparently I'm on a tirade. <_<

 

Forget it. This forum is entirely not worth the time.

[jc1138]

Here ya go Lorgar. TFH p64:

At last, he spoke, his eyes narrowed to slits. ‘My father was wrong about me. I am not a general like my brothers. And I refuse that destiny. I will not blindly walk the same paths they already tread. I will never understand tactics and logistics with the effortless ease of Guilliman or the Lion. I will never possess the skill with a blade shown by Fulgrim or the Khan. Am I diminished because I recognise my faults? I do not believe so.

 

From earlier in the conversation, Kor Phaeron p62:

‘You are all facets of the Emperor,’ Kor Phaeron amended. ‘You are aspects pulled from a genetic primer. The Lion is your father’s rationality – his analytical skill – unburdened by conscience. Magnus is his psychic potential and eager mind, unrestrained by patience. Russ is his ferocity, untempered by reason. Even Horus…’

‘Go on,’ Lorgar said, looking up now. ‘What of Horus?’

‘The Emperor’s ambition, unshaped by humility. Think of all the worlds where our Legion waged war alongside the Luna Wolves. You’ve seen it as well as I have. Horus hides his arrogance, but it is there – a layer beneath his skin, a shroud around his soul. Pride beats through his body like blood.’

‘And Guilliman?’ Lorgar let his hands rest on his knees again. A smile inched across his features.

‘Guilliman.’ Kor Phaeron’s narrow lips moulded into a grimace, opposing his primarch’s smirk. ‘Guilliman is your father’s echo, heart and soul. If all else went wrong, he would be heir to the

empire. Horus is the brightest star and you carry your father’s face, but Guilliman’s heart and soul are cast in the Emperor’s image

 

 

I know the conversation has developed some, but I want to make few points about this:

 

While I liked this part of TFH and the development of the primarch/Emperor mythos, I'm hardly going to take KP's word as gospel truth on the subject. It's pretty clear throughout the series and other sources that his is a skewed perspective (perhaps one of the most skewed, even).

 

That said, KP may still be spot on. I just don't feel like we have enough backing his words up yet (even with all the material we've been given), but I certainly don't trust him, and when I read the scene I'm suspicious--what with his constant attempts at manipulation of Lorgar when they are together.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Oh, for sure. In the post before that, where I mentioned those passages, I said that KP's depiction was just they way he said it, and not necessarily the actual truth. When you read the books, different characters seem convinced of different things. There are just as many suggestions that Horus would be the Emperor's first choice as a successor.

 

And KP is definitely manipulating Lorgar. Lorgar suffered a lot from the bad counsel of his most trusted cronies, which only helped the Chaos gods later.

[Kol Saresk]

Veteran Sergeant: Apologies are in order. I misread your post and then I saw Vazzy's post and misinterpreted as "Wait, that's right. There's new fluff that says something else," and I was just pointing out that you may be unaware of the new fluff.

 

Vazzy: I must also apologize. I was not trying to say you were being a jerk.

 

Hmm, some good points were brought. I'm just going to wait until I read Betrayer so I can form my own opinions.

[Veteran Sergeant]

To be fair, I never took any offense. Nothing about either of your posts was interpreted as aggressive.

 

Edit: The rest of this I'm sure was a tirade. <_<

[Vazzy]

Veteran Sergeant: Apologies are in order. I misread your post and then I saw Vazzy's post and misinterpreted as "Wait, that's right. There's new fluff that says something else," and I was just pointing out that you may be unaware of the new fluff.

 

Vazzy: I must also apologize. I was not trying to say you were being a jerk.

 

Hmm, some good points were brought. I'm just going to wait until I read Betrayer so I can form my own opinions.

 

 

Think nothing of it brother, I don't pretend to know nearly as much as yall do about the background but thought I'd throw up my two cents. Also, I have to agree with Veteran Sergeant on Angron. Despite ADBs best efforts Angron (and the whole legion, save a certain Contemptor,) are still ppants on head retarded.

[Kol Saresk]

Well you could argue that Angron and the World Eaters are just one pig personification of "in the heat of the moment." Normally when people are fueled by hate and rage, little of what they do actually makes sense. They just lash out and eventualky that hate and rage becomes self-perpetuating, much in a similar fashion as the Butcher's Nails. So the only thing anyone can do is just show us what created that rage. It will never have true shape or definition, it can only be explained.

[Wade Garrett]

Humph.

Magnus calls Lorgar out for his irrational views? Magnus, who walks the EXACT same path as Lorgar, except the outlet for his rage and frustration is Russ and the Wolves? At least Lorgar truly believes in the greatness of the Chaos gods, if Magnus sees Chaos as a false believe way to truth, why in the Warp does he keep scheming against the Wolves in particular and the Imperium in general? For him to try and upbraid Lorgar suggests hypocrisy or a lack of self knowledge on a staggering scale.

[Wade Garrett]

You know, I MIGHT be an irrational Lorgar fanboy. Maybe. I'm just saying.

 

On a serious note, Lorgar kept building churches in spite of the Emperor's disapproval, as Magnus wouldn't leave the issue of sorcery alone. Magnus's loathing of the Wolves was excaberated by the way the Emperor used them to scout the Sons before Nikea, as the Bearers despised the Ultramarines after the Scouring of Khur.

 

Both Lorgar and Magnus were convinced the Imperium was lacking a vital element (faith and psyker powers) and it was up to them to remedy that lack. They both looked down on the more martial Primarchs like Dorm and the Khan. ADB having them be Bros pre Heresy makes more sense the more you think about it.

[daveNYC]

I believe that the Wolves decided to make nice with the 1k Sons on their own, and then used what information they had gathered to call for the Council for Nikea.

[KarkassBC]

I believe that the Wolves decided to make nice with the 1k Sons on their own, and then used what information they had gathered to call for the Council for Nikea.

 

No the reason of Nikae was the angry of Russ after the "Great Library" incident where the TS kept the SW outside with a psychic shield (and killing two big wolves coming throught it).

 

There are some remarks about it made from Fulgrim and Mortarion (I will not count Lorgar because he was already on the path of Chaos).

 

Of course the testimony of Othere Wyrdmake, a guest in the TS encampment, had a great importance during the trial

[KarkassBC]

double post

[daveNYC]

I believe that the Wolves decided to make nice with the 1k Sons on their own, and then used what information they had gathered to call for the Council for Nikea.

 

No the reason of Nikae was the angry of Russ after the "Great Library" incident where the TS kept the SW outside with a psychic shield (and killing two big wolves coming throught it).

 

There are some remarks about it made from Fulgrim and Mortarion (I will not count Lorgar because he was already on the path of Chaos).

 

Of course the testimony of Othere Wyrdmake, a guest in the TS encampment, had a great importance during the trial

 

My bad. The events at the library (Flesh Change and dead wolves) were what triggered the Council.

The point that the Wolves were spying freelance, and not at the request of the Emperor, still stands.

Magnus' hatred of Russ is well founded. He killed off most of the Thousand Sons, burned down their city and all the books in it, and inflicted god knows how many casualties on the civilian population. Ordered by the Emperor, manipulated by Horus, influenced by Valdor? Sure, but at the end of the day that's a heck of a butcher's bill that the Wolves have racked up.

 

And I'm just ignoring the role that Magnus himself played in the drama, none of the Primarchs were know for being introspective.

[karden00]

And since Betrayer is new, it is entirely forgiveable for Veteran Sergeant to have that opinion as he has not read it yet.

Except his quote actually proves my pointl.

 

 

"At one point, I was jealous of him. "

 

 

Remember, there are more than fifty years between Monarchia and the events of Betrayer. And at this point in the timeline, Lorgar has been completely corrupted by Chaos and is no longer the same person that he was when he was broken and turned. Any facets of Now-Lorgar who is a vassal of Chaos are completely divorced from Then-Lorgar who was a broken man. He carries the confidence of his faith in Chaos, and the powers he has gained from it. What got him to that point is a different story. The Lorgar of TFH and Aurelian is an entirely different character. We see shadows of that Lorgar in Betrayer (at least as far as I have gotten in it), and shadows of him in KNF. When I talk of Lorgar's irrational anger, and feeble will, I'm referring to the traits that allowed Chaos to seduce him. Not to the traits he gained from that transformation from Primarch to Chaos Champion.

 

If you read into the conversation between Magnus and Lorgar, he actually calls out Lorgar several times on his irrational views, which suggests that Lorgar's self reporting cannot be completely trusted anyway.

 

‘It’s yours, as always. Though I’ll remind you what happened the last time you asked my advice, only to ignore it.’

 

The Word Bearer didn’t laugh at the bitter jest; he didn’t even smirk. ‘You mean when I found that Father was lying to the entire Imperium and that the universe is not the godless place he insists it is? Yes, I have a vague recollection of those events.’

 

‘That is one way of looking at it. Not the right way, of course.’

 

 

Lorgar is still being manipulated. He's still viewing the world from the distorted lens Chaos has offered him. In fact, he's even more delusional at this point because he's fully accepted the version of the truth Chaos has offered him. Drank the Kool Aid, so to speak.

 

I'm actually really enjoying Betrayer despite the fact that Angryon is my least favorite of the Primarchs. ADB does a great job writing the Primarchs (despite my continued misgivings of his portrayals of individual Space Marines), and a great job writing coherent bolter porn. The World Eaters are ridiculously stupid, but for some reason it doesn't matter, because it is entertaining. I found myself constantly laughing at just how completely ineffective the World Eaters would be as a fighting force, and how utterly insane it was for the Emperor to leave Angryon in charge. But I found myself willing to keep reading despite that, which shows it's a fairly good book. Kudos to ADB for trying to give Angryon a third dimension, and some life, though. It's a Sisyphean task, sadly. But the quality of the writing in the story has kept Betrayer moving along, despite my entertainment at the ridiculousness of the situations and combat. Events kinda happen in a vacuum a lot of the time, and sometimes there seems to be no reason for things to happen other than to drive the narrative

for example, when the World Eaters run up against the shield wall of Ultramarines, and get turned back. Then Khârn just gets really angry at being shot, and that magically allows him to defeat the Ultramarines shield wall that had moments before completely repelled the World Eaters assault, and Khârn had acknowledged that it had to be beaten the first charge, or they'd never be able to beat it. A couple paragraphs later, apparently the second charge is fine, as long as you get really, really angry, lol

. I think the narrative could have been tightened up a bit too. The battle of Armatura doesn't seem significant enough to have something like ten chapters (out of 23) devoted to battle scenes. I think the point it was trying to drive home could have been accomplished in six or seven easily. I will give ADB credit though, he seems to write the Ultramarines better than most others have. Not perfect by any means. His Ultramarines get really smart, and then kinda dumb in turn, depending on what they need to be for individual scenes, but the overall picture of the Chapter is better (as in more "accurate" and believable) than previous depictions by other authors.

 

 

Not to go too heavy on my fanboy but...

I couldnt agree more with this. This is my problem with some of the 'specialist' legions. I know this is all escapist fluff for entertainment purposes, but I have just never found these character traits in legions or individuals credible. Wars have historically been won by sound planning, crafty tactics and no small amount of logistical support. I dont mean to throw out another logistics bomb, but I've always found the 'rage' card in 40/30k to be just one dimensional. Its just not the way war works. Yes they take horrible losses, and are often criticized for their (lack of) tactics, but, it just doesnt work for me.

 

But this raises a rather more serious question that I dont know the answer to. Where do the World Eaters recruit from? Is it stated that they recruit at all? From the way they wage war, they ought to be one of the most heavily recruiting legions out there. What am I missing here, and where would I find it?

 

Logistics

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah it says they recruit from all over, so there's a massive difference in the way they all look, it's not so set on specific worlds like other legions.

[Arkangilos]

And since Betrayer is new, it is entirely forgiveable for Veteran Sergeant to have that opinion as he has not read it yet.

Except his quote actually proves my pointl.

 

 

"At one point, I was jealous of him. "

 

 

Remember, there are more than fifty years between Monarchia and the events of Betrayer. And at this point in the timeline, Lorgar has been completely corrupted by Chaos and is no longer the same person that he was when he was broken and turned. Any facets of Now-Lorgar who is a vassal of Chaos are completely divorced from Then-Lorgar who was a broken man. He carries the confidence of his faith in Chaos, and the powers he has gained from it. What got him to that point is a different story. The Lorgar of TFH and Aurelian is an entirely different character. We see shadows of that Lorgar in Betrayer (at least as far as I have gotten in it), and shadows of him in KNF. When I talk of Lorgar's irrational anger, and feeble will, I'm referring to the traits that allowed Chaos to seduce him. Not to the traits he gained from that transformation from Primarch to Chaos Champion.

 

If you read into the conversation between Magnus and Lorgar, he actually calls out Lorgar several times on his irrational views, which suggests that Lorgar's self reporting cannot be completely trusted anyway.

 

‘It’s yours, as always. Though I’ll remind you what happened the last time you asked my advice, only to ignore it.’

 

The Word Bearer didn’t laugh at the bitter jest; he didn’t even smirk. ‘You mean when I found that Father was lying to the entire Imperium and that the universe is not the godless place he insists it is? Yes, I have a vague recollection of those events.’

 

‘That is one way of looking at it. Not the right way, of course.’

 

 

Lorgar is still being manipulated. He's still viewing the world from the distorted lens Chaos has offered him. In fact, he's even more delusional at this point because he's fully accepted the version of the truth Chaos has offered him. Drank the Kool Aid, so to speak.

 

I'm actually really enjoying Betrayer despite the fact that Angryon is my least favorite of the Primarchs. ADB does a great job writing the Primarchs (despite my continued misgivings of his portrayals of individual Space Marines), and a great job writing coherent bolter porn. The World Eaters are ridiculously stupid, but for some reason it doesn't matter, because it is entertaining. I found myself constantly laughing at just how completely ineffective the World Eaters would be as a fighting force, and how utterly insane it was for the Emperor to leave Angryon in charge. But I found myself willing to keep reading despite that, which shows it's a fairly good book. Kudos to ADB for trying to give Angryon a third dimension, and some life, though. It's a Sisyphean task, sadly. But the quality of the writing in the story has kept Betrayer moving along, despite my entertainment at the ridiculousness of the situations and combat. Events kinda happen in a vacuum a lot of the time, and sometimes there seems to be no reason for things to happen other than to drive the narrative

for example, when the World Eaters run up against the shield wall of Ultramarines, and get turned back. Then Khârn just gets really angry at being shot, and that magically allows him to defeat the Ultramarines shield wall that had moments before completely repelled the World Eaters assault, and Khârn had acknowledged that it had to be beaten the first charge, or they'd never be able to beat it. A couple paragraphs later, apparently the second charge is fine, as long as you get really, really angry, lol

. I think the narrative could have been tightened up a bit too. The battle of Armatura doesn't seem significant enough to have something like ten chapters (out of 23) devoted to battle scenes. I think the point it was trying to drive home could have been accomplished in six or seven easily. I will give ADB credit though, he seems to write the Ultramarines better than most others have. Not perfect by any means. His Ultramarines get really smart, and then kinda dumb in turn, depending on what they need to be for individual scenes, but the overall picture of the Chapter is better (as in more "accurate" and believable) than previous depictions by other authors.

 

 

Not to go too heavy on my fanboy but...

I couldnt agree more with this. This is my problem with some of the 'specialist' legions. I know this is all escapist fluff for entertainment purposes, but I have just never found these character traits in legions or individuals credible. Wars have historically been won by sound planning, crafty tactics and no small amount of logistical support. I dont mean to throw out another logistics bomb, but I've always found the 'rage' card in 40/30k to be just one dimensional. Its just not the way war works. Yes they take horrible losses, and are often criticized for their (lack of) tactics, but, it just doesnt work for me.

 

But this raises a rather more serious question that I dont know the answer to. Where do the World Eaters recruit from? Is it stated that they recruit at all? From the way they wage war, they ought to be one of the most heavily recruiting legions out there. What am I missing here, and where would I find it?

 

Logistics

 

 

Actually you can win a war with poor planning and tactics. Just look at the Russians in WW2.

[Lepaca]

Actually you can win a war with poor planning and tactics. Just look at the Russians in WW2.

 

But then you need to have numbers on your side and all Space Marines tend to be outnumbered most of the time.

Heck, even if you equate 1 Astartes to 1000 guardsmen they tend to be outnumbered quite often.