Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Arkangilos]

Actually you can win a war with poor planning and tactics. Just look at the Russians in WW2.

 

But then you need to have numbers on your side and all Space Marines tend to be outnumbered most of the time.

Heck, even if you equate 1 Astartes to 1000 guardsmen they tend to be outnumbered quite often.

 

Agreed, but legionary era astartes had an easier time with that.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Apparently I'm on a tirade. :huh:

 

I apologize for not liking this book. That's very selfish of me and I wouldn't want anyone to feel demeaned.

[Wade Garrett]

What many ignore is that the Butcher's Nails didn't just fry the brains of those implanted with them. They also gifted the wearer with speed, strength, and pain tolerance far beyond the not inconsiderable amounts already possessed by Space Marines. Consider the veteran World Eater in Outcast Dead: clad in nothing but a prison jumpsuit, he ripped a fully armed and armored Custodian to bits. Although to be fair, said Custodes was assigned to be a jailer instead of a front line fighter because of some unspecified crippling injury or other. Still, driving one's fist through Custodian war plate is pretty impressive.

 

If you're physically superior to your enemy, you don't need perfect strategies to succeed. I think four NFL players wouldn't require blackbelts in karate and tutoring in small unit tactics to beat up the average 4th grade class.

[Arkangilos]

The only problem is that, by admission in the story, the Ultramarines were the Russians in terms of numbers, as well as having the superior tactics.

 

The WE and WB won on angry and plot armor alone, lol.

 

Though, again, to be fair, I didn't think the book was bad because of this. It was bad for other reasons. I was chuckling though the battle scenes though, at how ridiculous some of the situations were.

 

I think you are overly critical of everything. Just relax and enjoy it.

[KarkassBC]

Unfortunately, battles are not won by the fastest or more resilient units.

Artillery and armor make the big difference. Infantry come for the capture of objectives or positions, and to keep them.

 

The description of the WE way of warfare is completely fictional. So we read for some "human wave" attacking tactics against opposition who prefer to make another close combat fight.

 

But considering the numbers of space marines, they are elite not common soldier... so they need to be used only to obtain a breakthrough. After the Imperial Guard regiments (loyals or traitors) will continue the attack or delay the movement of enemy reserves to close the gap.

 

Only in this way the WE are believable, otherwise they will be blasted by any opposition. There are too many solutions to destroy an huge attacking army if you have more firepower at a longer distance.

[Visitor13]

I had been hoping FW's Betrayal and ADB would actually make the WE less dumb ;)

[Veteran Sergeant]

Apparently I'm on a tirade. :lol:

 

I'll take this down so nobody feels demeaned.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. Right up until the 1860s( I think) the common military tactic was to line up in clean, crisp military formations and march into the cannon and rifle fire. Nowadays, any officer who ordered that to happen is as likely to get shot by his own troops as they are the enemy. It is still widely debated, proven and disproven that if an enemy had enough numbers and discipline, they could repeat that tactic in modern terms of warfare with varying degrees of success and defeat. Right now there is only one country that even has the numbers to attempt it.

 

However, back in the days of Colonial Europe, it wasn't uncommon for a European army to fight people armed with bows and spears who simply charged through the gunpowder and actually manage to beat back the Europeans. So even today's terms, it is still a manageable tactic. Actually with today's tactics leaning towards causing as much damage with as few casualties as possible, it might actually be more manageable. Not smart, but possible.

 

There are still hundreds of variables to consider though. But when it is a Legion of genetically enhanced warriors that can shrug off physical and mental trauma that would normally kill a man like it is nothing, who have been further enhanced by cybernetic neural implants that increase reaction times by limiting thought processes, deadens the brain's receptors to everything but rage and is constantly inducing the body to produce adrenaline and other stress-induced chemicals, combined with the combat stimms provided by the power armour, the tactic becomes not just feasible, but likely to have a high success rate. Especially when you put a Primarch who has been similarly enhanced at the forefront.

 

EDIT: Even with all of these positives, it would never be something that I would because the casaulty rate would still be insane. So it does and always will surprise that this is the suggested tactic of some WAAC players. or "assumed tactic of choice" might be a better way to put it. But I can't imagine ADB doing any worse than when Graham McNeill had the World Eaters trying to cut down a wall with their Chainaxes in Galaxy in Flames. But I haven't the book yet so don't spoil it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I think you are overly critical of everything. Just relax and enjoy it.

'snip'

There is attacking, and this is not an example of such. If, for example, he called you a whiny old man, or something else that could be seen as insulting for being overly critical (which I frankly can't think of anything serious, although I'd prefer to remain ignorant in such slander) then the correct response is not to try to improve your superiority, correct or not, rather hit the report button. Our jobs is to take care of these things, please let us do so. Also, at the level that comment was you too could be faulted; your continued tirades against Lorgar are demeaning to his fans such as I and as a form of belittlement. You no doubt found that ridiculous, so too is the thought he was insulting you. He was merely criticizing you, as you criticize the work of others, to each their own no?

[Wade Garrett]

Now, I haven't read Betrayer yet so I may be way off base, but every other time the World Eaters have made an appearance they have been willing to employ tactics besides "run towards the target on foot while waving a chainaxe overhead and bellowing incoherently". In Galaxy In Flames they hit the loyalist positions by leaping out of Thunderhawks, in the Gaunt novel Ghostmaker they spring an ambush on an armored column, and so on.

 

The XII Legion prefers simple tactics, but unless ADB went way off the reservation they are not and have never been stupid. Artillery and gun lines become much less feasible when the psychopathic supermen use Dreadclaws, Thunderhawks, Land Raiders, and teleportation to quickly close the distance and then engage in a bloody close quarters brawl.

[Kol Saresk]

In GiF, they showed up jumping out of Thunderhawks and Stormbirds. Or rather, that's how Angron made his entrance. For the rest of the novel, the author resorted to the typical "Me World Eater! Me smash! Grr! Argh!" Although in TOD McNeill showed not one, but three intelligent World Eaters who prefered straight up fights but had a grasp of tactics. And to be honest, I don't think "Grr! World Eater smash!" Should be what authors aspire to create. Just look at Chosen of Khorne by Anthoney Reynolds.

[Wade Garrett]

I think I can clear some confusion up:

Ben Coulter wrote Galaxy in Flames, Graham McNeil wrote The Outcast Dead.

 

I agree with you that "Me World Eater-me SMASH loyalist!" Is just plain lazy writing, on up there with "Me Ultramarine. The Codex Astartes approves of this smashing!" and "Me Iron Hand-me smash own face and replace with metal one!".

[Kol Saresk]

Yep, you're right. I was getting the authors for False Gods and Galaxy in Flames. I apologize. I will fix that now. Although I still can't say that I rememer the World Eaters being described favorably in that book either. Although the scene of Angron bursting out from under a pile of rubble is awesome.