Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Kol Saresk]

Honest confession, I skipped that part of the anthology because he was dead. :P

 

Not to pick apart people's internal logic, but.....

 

Did you also skip Know No Fear, Prince of Crows, and Fear to Tread? Considering we already know the end game for Curze, Rob, and Sanguinus. :P

Dead in the series. And I've read everything else. Although my memory of Prospero Burns is hazy as all get out.

 

Hmm, some interesting stuff has cropped up. To be honest, while I think Angron wasn't necessarily the best influence out there, I hardly think he was the worst. He spread the Nails to his warriors yes. But that's because they agreed to it in After De'shea. It's not like he forced it. They welcomed the Butcher's Nails so they could become closer with their Primarch. So to be honest, I'm not sure who is the influence and who is the influenced. It's sort of like asking whose fault is it that Faust lost his soul? The devil for asking or Faust for accepting the deal?

[DarthMarko]

Dorn,"IF" would crush "IW" if he didn't order them retreat ("the Crimson fist"novel), and I will add IRON CAGE after which imho was just purging...

[Emperor's Furor]

Nah, the War Hounds were agressive before Angron was found, they were already considered reckless, but the Dusk Raiders were considered honourable and respected throughout the unification and the great crusade until 8 decades past and Mortarion turned up and crushed all that and turned them into a legion which was widely scorned to the point Corax and Guilliman had to talk to the Emperor about them. The only thing they retained was their tactic of war of attrition and heavy infantry assaults, all the honour etc had gone.

 

All legions weren't the same when they left Terra, they wore the same armour but shortly their character came out, this had already started during the war of unification when the legions were first used, the dusk raiders painted their right arm red in an attempt to replace it's symbolism of the right hand of the Unspeakable King with that of the right hand of the Emperor's Justice and they received the name Dusk Raiders because they would attack at dawn with waves of heavy infantry. The 16th Legion would become the Luna Wolves because the leaders of the gene labs on Luna stated "call off your wolves" when they surrended, thus earning the new name. The first kept their original name until they found the Lion.

 

All legions had character before their Primarch turned up, some were good and honour until the Primarch turned up and they turned for the worse, some where pretty bland but then their Primarch turned up and made them better (I'd argue the Emperor's Children are an example of this).

[Anvilarium]

That doesn't seem to fit with how the Legion is portaryed in Feat of Iron (in the Primarchs anthology) the Iron Creed is already well and truly entrenched in the Legion, and Ferrous says that an Iron Hand who removed his bionic arm to fight in area the eldar had magically warded to turn the Hands's bionics against them will be punished for violating the Creed.

 

Feat of Iron is garbage as far as depicting the Iron Hands goes. Theres so much wrong with the story that it pains me to have read it.

 

If you read Wrath of Iron, (the Space Marine Battles novel), there is an excerpt at the start from the Neimerel Scrolls, which were supposedly written by Ferrus Manus:

 

 

They are not my hands.

 

This fact is forgotten by my brothers – inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine. And that counts for something.

 

They forget that the silver on my arms comes from a beast that I vanquished. It is the mark of a great evil that I ended, and yet it persists within me. It is alien, artificial; an uneasy corollary to the superlative physical frame given to me by my father.

I would struggle to remove it now. The problem is not one of surgery, for I have no doubt my father’s chirurgeons could remake me entirely if he gave them the command. No, I will not remove the silver from my flesh because I have learned to depend on it.

 

The fault is with my mind. I rely on the augmentation given to me by my metal gauntlets, so much so that the flesh beneath them is little more than a memory.

 

It is a crutch, this silver. A day will come when I will strip it from me, lest I lose the power to master myself forever. Already my Legion’s warriors replace their shield hands with metal in my honour, and so they too are learning to doubt the natural strength of their bodies. They must be weaned off this practise before it becomes a mania for them. Hatred of what is natural, of what is human, is the first and greatest of corruptions.

 

So I record it here: when the time comes, I will strip my hands of their unnatural silver. I will instruct my Legion to recant their distrust of the flesh. I will turn them away from the gifts of the machine and bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood.

 

When my father’s crusade is over, this shall be my sacred task. When the fighting is done, I shall cure my Legion, and myself. For if fighting is all there is, if we may never pause to reflect on what such devotion to strength is doing to us, then our compulsion will only grow.

 

Already I see the madness that path leads to, and so I shall excise the silver from my hands. In doing so I shall weaken myself and my sons, but nonetheless it must be done.

 

The hands are strong, and have created great things, but they are not mine.

 

 

So basically,

 

 

Ferrus was aware of the illness in his Legion, and was going to fix it after the Crusade was complete.

 

 

However, Ferrus is still responsible for ruining his Legion because he didn't remedy the situation immediately. He should have brought the problem to the attention of the Emperor and arranged a Nikea-style intervention for his Legion.

 

Also, I completely agree with the above description of forcing his legion to be tactically inflexible. No Jetbikes, no Librarius, just lots of armour and sheer brute force.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'd so be interested in reading about an Iron Hands successor who reads these words and decides to follow it, but the main Iron Hands chapter and other chapters don't take kindly to it.

[Billuriye]

I'd so be interested in reading about an Iron Hands successor who reads these words and decides to follow it, but the main Iron Hands chapter and other chapters don't take kindly to it.

 

It's not exactly a matter of decision. The hate of flesh is pathological like Red Thirst, but unlike other legions, Iron Hands enforce it. With each bionic graft, Iron Hands also lose a portion of their humanity more so than any other legion despite the brain isn't touched by bionics. Considering even the most modified Adepts of Mechanicum have emotions, there is something else going on with Iron Hands.

[Nexus25]

Lets get down to who really screwed up not just one legion the most but "ALL" the legions by being a Galactic dick, flip floppy rule monger, and hypocrite the Emperor. That right come at me!!! This one person did more damage to the legions than all the Primarchs combined, lost included.

[Billuriye]

Lets get down to who really screwed up not just one legion the most but "ALL" the legions by being a Galactic dick, flip floppy rule monger, and hypocrite the Emperor. That right come at me!!! This one person did more damage to the legions than all the Primarchs combined, lost included.

 

He did sloppy work with his sons sure but that sounds more like incompetent than a dick.

[Emperor's Furor]

I know it's not a matter of decision but I get the feeling the majority if not all of the Iron Hands failed to notice or take heed of what ever was said on the subject of replacing flesh with bionics, this passage in the right hands could cause a civil war between the current Iron Hands and their successors. It's already happened once with the Sons of Medusa who took a different philosophical view during Moirae Schism, and that was based on the mechanicus, I think someone claiming the words of Ferrus Manus might make a bigger impact on the chapters.

[daveNYC]

I'd so be interested in reading about an Iron Hands successor who reads these words and decides to follow it, but the main Iron Hands chapter and other chapters don't take kindly to it.

 

It's not exactly a matter of decision. The hate of flesh is pathological like Red Thirst, but unlike other legions, Iron Hands enforce it. With each bionic graft, Iron Hands also lose a portion of their humanity more so than any other legion despite the brain isn't touched by bionics. Considering even the most modified Adepts of Mechanicum have emotions, there is something else going on with Iron Hands.

 

It might be pathological, but that doesn't mean that it's tied to their geneseed.

[Billuriye]

@WoT

I guess that's possible.

 

It might be pathological, but that doesn't mean that it's tied to their geneseed.

Sure, but most of the Astartes quirks come from geneseed.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Approaching it form a "before" and "after" approach there are several top contenders:

 

Angron- Yes the Warhounds were aggressive before hand. True. But then Angron decided "Boy, these painful rage inducing nails used by my hated overlords to enslave my will sure are a GREAT time! I know! I will share them with my Legion!" As for "choice"...yeah military organization of gene bred warriors in space with your genetic father saying "Bloody Well Do It!" offers ever so much choice. Angron turned his Legion from aggressive warriors on a leash to frothing nutters enslaved to rage makers in their head. Ironic (or just plain stupid) for a guy who purportedly hated enslavement to tyrants.

 

Mortarion- The Dusk Raiders seem to be bloody (as with all Astartes) but honorable before the coming of Mortarion. The dark character he molded them to fit and the brittle pride in toughness he instilled in them set them on the path to ruin. Distinct character shift for the worse.

 

Horus- Seemed like a REALLY good thing. But, alack and alas, bound them too tightly to him and dragged them into ruin.

 

Lorgar- "How to turn your Legion into a bunch of whiners and failures 101" a book by the One Who Didn't Get It, the Poor Dope.

 

Nigh Haunter- Let us consider the demarcation line to be "arrived at Nostromo" rather than simply "KUURRRRZZZEEEEE!" Unless it comes to light they were ALWAYS sadistic loonies, there is a distinct switch in character post-Primarch.

 

Alpha Legion- Once Alpharius showed up, they were doomed. Doomed to be crow-barred unnecessarily into idiotic periods in the Heresy while having their enemies made stupid just to allow nonsensical and overly convoluted plans go off. Oh, and forced to say "I am Alpharius" which made introductions at office parties really awkward.

[daveNYC]

@WoT

I guess that's possible.

 

It might be pathological, but that doesn't mean that it's tied to their geneseed.

Sure, but most of the Astartes quirks come from geneseed.

 

It'd work better if the geneseed made them obsessive, but the actual loathing of the flesh came from the legion's tradition. Otherwise you have a goofy situation where their geneseed turns their bodies into seven foot tall killing machines, which they then immediately start replacing with machines. The geneseed causes them to hate what the geneseed caused them to become. The Emperor was a screw up, but that's really pushing it.

[Billuriye]

It'd work better if the geneseed made them obsessive, but the actual loathing of the flesh came from the legion's tradition. Otherwise you have a goofy situation where their geneseed turns their bodies into seven foot tall killing machines, which they then immediately start replacing with machines. The geneseed causes them to hate what the geneseed caused them to become. The Emperor was a screw up, but that's really pushing it.

 

Emperor has worse geneseed screw ups e.g. Thousand Sons. It might not even have anything to do with Emperor. Maybe Iron Hands simply went over the edge after Ferrus' death. Or maybe they are cursed by Asirnoth. Some C'tan cursed Necrons resulting Flayed Ones so the reverse is plausible too.

[Anvilarium]

Iron Hands simply went over the edge after Ferrus' death.

 

But according to recent Heresy stories (Feat of Iron & Angel Exterminatus), the Iron Hands already had this flaw before Ferrus Manus was killed. Ferrus was well aware of it and was going to rectify it after the Crusades had concluded.

[Wade Garrett]

Although the excerpt at the beginning of Wrath of Iron was neat and adds some pathos to Ferrous's story...I treat the same way I do Sahaal and Talos's claims that the Emperor sanctioned the VIII Legion's work. Even Wrath only says that the scrolls are attributed to the Gorgon, and even if we throw out Feat it still doesn't jibe with how Manus was portrayed in Fulgrim.

[Fire Golem]

Lorgar turned his Legion into preachy whiners and cowards. That can't be good, lol.

 

Have you read Know No Fear? They kicked ultramarine ass (well mostly) I wouldnt call them cowards.

 

That said, Lorgars actions not only affected his legion, but all of them. So his impact was pretty bad.

Curze and angron as people have said.

Fulgrims legion got pretty messed up, as did Mortarions. And Magnus' :L

[Lorenzen]

take lorgar out & the heresy would be totally altered, death guard was typhons fault with what happened, mort chose the wrong side thats all.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

It doesn't matter how brutal the Legion was before hand, turning all of them into berzerkers via the Burtcher's Nails implanted in their skulls is just a little terrible for your Legion's well-being.

 

I'm not sure about Night Lords. On one hand, they became so potent a weapon that after a certain point they couldn't find any conflict because everybody they encountered were so terrified of them. On the other hand, Curze's neglect of Nostramo led to the Legion becoming full of criminals that did the fear thing for fun.

 

Sigismund singlehandedly saved Dorn's bloodline from becoming both generic and yellow :yuck: Not the worst thing that can happen to a legion, but not exactly wonderful either.

 

 

 

I think the winner goes to Sanguinus though, if only for his post-mortem contribution to his legion - that is, causing the Black Rage and Red Thirst. His entire bloodline is dying out because of those two curses, not to mention driving countless astartes insane. For a loyalist legion, they have it pretty bad.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Lorgar turned his Legion into preachy whiners and cowards. That can't be good, lol.

 

Have you read Know No Fear? They kicked ultramarine ass (well mostly) I wouldnt call them cowards.

They struck from complete treachery, and had total surprise. I could beat Anderson Silva in a fight if I got to hit him in the head with a baseball bat when he wasn't looking, lol.

 

Know No Fear wasn't really a good example of anything other than just how effective total surprise is. However, once the Ultramarines rallied, they turned the tide fairly quickly, which suggests they were really just that much better than the Word Bearers. It makes sense though. The Ultramarines spent the entire Great Crusade conquering stuff. The Word Bearers spent most of it building churches, and only decided to be all conquery at the very end. Ultramarines commanders probably had like 100-150 years more combat experience, heh.

 

Remember, almost every single Word Bearer who attacked Calth died, lol. The only ones that survived were the ones who escaped when the fleet ran away. Which can't be many of them, because they had to do it in a hurry. The Word Bearers were sacrificed by Horus to delay the Ultramarines. Probably because they were the least experienced and least hardened of the Traitor Legions.

[Lepaca]

Lorgar- "How to turn your Legion into a bunch of whiners and failures 101" a book by the One Who Didn't Get It, the Poor Dope.

 

What is it with people completly misunderstanding the Word Bearers?

Their quest for religious enlightenment has led them to discover the only truly divine force in the universe.

They were the legion that brought about the Heresy.

They were amongst the most succesful warriors during the Heresy.

They are the biggest Space Marine force in the present (besides the Black Legion maybe but they are no longer a real mono-geneseed legion)

And they still have some resemblance of organisation and unity.

[Emperor's Furor]

The only major problem I had with Know No Fear was the bolter porn is descended into, it didn't help make either side look especially impressive.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Their quest for religious enlightenment has led them to discover the only truly divine force in the universe.

They were the legion that brought about the Heresy.

Good or a bad thing? Ultimately, they did that because they were tricked. Lorgar was weak. The Chaos Gods lied to him. They told him what he wanted to hear, so he switched sides. Then, thinking he'd finally found his deities, he betrayed his entire species, and started a war of galactic genocide against the very people he was entrusted to protect. All because he was reprimanded by his Father, and he couldn't handle the rejection. Now he's been sitting in a tower for 10,000 years writing a book nobody will read.

 

They were amongst the most succesful warriors during the Heresy.

Never once seen this implied, anywhere. Their only real "success" was Calth, and that was a gambit by Horus in which half the Word Bearers Legion was sacrificed. They were treated as a strategic asset because of their sheer numbers, but ultimately they were expendable. Unless you mean amongst the most successful in the Crusade, a point which I say is contentious because they were only successful at the end. Up until the last approximately 50 years, they were the absolute least successful, which suggests they would have had a lot of ground to make up.

[Brother Immolator]

Guys for those of you who say the Lion did a crap job and played favourites and things like that and splited the terrans and so on and so on. I have news.

 

All where the lies of delusional fallen (Astelan) the author of the book said so too.

 

For me two stand out. Magnus, because more or less he was a pawn of Tzeentch from the very beginning and Angorn for the above mentioned reason of turning the entire legion into psychopaths.

[KarkassBC]

Word Bearers were quite successful during the Crusade almost at the level of the Ultramarines.

 

They were slower but they created the most loyal worlds in the entire Imperium. There is no meaning in simple conquest and coming back later to destroy a rebellion... the problem is when we considered them only in the number of military victories and not the final results... keeping fewer systems without problems is better than conquering more than they could control.