Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Adra'Melek]

Angron didn't just introduce the Nails. It was noted in Betrayal that he drastically ramped up the brutality of their training as well. Considering it was already harsh it suggests they were no where near as bad as they became. There's a difference between being brutal (to a normal human soldier quoted in the book) and being excessively brutal for an Astartes.

[Rain]

Why does everyone assume that the Butcher's Nails were a bad thing anyway? Once they could start being implanted successfully they actually enhanced the World Eaters' prowess, though at the cost of some sanity. But again, the WE were already a pretty dodgy lot. Even before the Nails they were feared by the Imperial army for their quirky reputation for attacking their own side and exterminating entire regiments that "failed" them or were seen as cowardly. This was of course kind of the point, they were the big E's pack of monsters that kept everyone in line, Angron just cut the leash.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Guys for those of you who say the Lion did a crap job and played favourites and things like that and splited the terrans and so on and so on. I have news.

 

All where the lies of delusional fallen (Astelan) the author of the book said so too.

 

That's a nice try, but since Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels are not that book nor were written by that author, and the events in both pre-date the events of Angels of Darkness, your point is irrelevant and is also not 'news'. :)

[Billuriye]

Why does everyone assume that the Butcher's Nails were a bad thing anyway? Once they could start being implanted successfully they actually enhanced the World Eaters' prowess, though at the cost of some sanity. But again, the WE were already a pretty dodgy lot. Even before the Nails they were feared by the Imperial army for their quirky reputation for attacking their own side and exterminating entire regiments that "failed" them or were seen as cowardly. This was of course kind of the point, they were the big E's pack of monsters that kept everyone in line, Angron just cut the leash.

 

Butcher's Nails kills you from brain hemorrhage. Angron would die, if he didn't ascend. That's pretty bad.

[Rain]

Nowhere does it say that. Lorgar thought that it was going to kill Angron, but Lorgar is big on worrying, he is like the Jewish mother of primarchs, there are thousands of Heresy era World Eaters still running around just fine.

[Billuriye]

Nowhere does it say that. Lorgar thought that it was going to kill Angron, but Lorgar is big on worrying, he is like the Jewish mother of primarchs, there are thousands of Heresy era World Eaters still running around just fine.

 

Lorgar simply didn't add Khorne to the equation. He rectified his error. But without Khorne, Angron's brain would end up as a pulp.

[yhta]

Their quest for religious enlightenment has led them to discover the only truly divine force in the universe.

They were the legion that brought about the Heresy.

Good or a bad thing? Ultimately, they did that because they were tricked. Lorgar was weak. The Chaos Gods lied to him. They told him what he wanted to hear, so he switched sides. Then, thinking he'd finally found his deities, he betrayed his entire species, and started a war of galactic genocide against the very people he was entrusted to protect. All because he was reprimanded by his Father, and he couldn't handle the rejection. Now he's been sitting in a tower for 10,000 years writing a book nobody will read.

 

They were amongst the most succesful warriors during the Heresy.

Never once seen this implied, anywhere. Their only real "success" was Calth, and that was a gambit by Horus in which half the Word Bearers Legion was sacrificed. They were treated as a strategic asset because of their sheer numbers, but ultimately they were expendable. Unless you mean amongst the most successful in the Crusade, a point which I say is contentious because they were only successful at the end. Up until the last approximately 50 years, they were the absolute least successful, which suggests they would have had a lot of ground to make up.

 

the emperor reject him? is not like he just said "i not a god" they destroy everything lorgar believes only to find out that his father LIE TO HIM FIRST. and know is his writing of the legius diviniatus that humanity have a weapon against chaos and in the end his father become a god. so you can understand the role of lorgar

 

not only that. lorgar chose not to fight with them based in the vision of a deamon. and kor made some damage to guillman.

 

also. all the space marine have some mental issues to the point of obsesion. just look: the ultras and the codex, iron hand and their hate of flesh, the quest of perfeccion fo the emperor children, thing they know everything to thousand sons and so one and one. some of this were corrupt by chaos other so become worse. is how the heresy changes the primarch and with them their legions

[Augustus]

Other legions had problems with their Terran Marines and homeworld Marines.

 

Those that I know of:

Death Guard

White Scars

Dark Angels.

 

Eight out of nine traitor legions PURGED a large portion of their legion's Terran marines who did not go along with them. (sans Thousand Suns)

 

We don't know who the Lion preferred. As he sent back a majority of Caliban Marines and yet Astelan was from Terra.

 

I also question your "half the Legion turned" This has been brought up frequently but I still have not seen any data on it. Unless the Dark Angels arrive at Caliban and suddenly and spontaneously 1/2 of the legion that was with the Lion decides to change sides, then that "half the legion turned traitor" is complete is poop.

Cause as it stands now there are only 4000 marines with Luther on Caliban.

 

Considering that the White Scars had marines side with Horus...I don't think of it as any thing super unusual that Luther turned men under his control.

 

Side note:

Word Bearers did not win. The Imperium is a Force of Order in the galaxy. That is anathema to Chaos. Yes, white its abusive, authoritarian, inhumane etc. it is still a Force of Order and it still exists. The Horus heresy was a stalemate.

[Brother Immolator]

Guys for those of you who say the Lion did a crap job and played favourites and things like that and splited the terrans and so on and so on. I have news.

 

All where the lies of delusional fallen (Astelan) the author of the book said so too.

 

That's a nice try, but since Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels are not that book nor were written by that author, and the events in both pre-date the events of Angels of Darkness, your point is irrelevant and is also not 'news'. :wub:

 

I am not trying to prove anything, find the authors remarks. Also please quote me something cause I fail to remember something that denotes your statements from the above books.

 

Also as Augustus said, most of the garrison were Calibanite in fact. Not returned but bread and trained. There where some who returned but the bulk was new recruits. Caliban was the recruiting world and HQ of the Legion.

[KarkassBC]

Side note:

Word Bearers did not win. The Imperium is a Force of Order in the galaxy. That is anathema to Chaos. Yes, white its abusive, authoritarian, inhumane etc. it is still a Force of Order and it still exists. The Horus heresy was a stalemate.

 

No one said that. Many readers said the WB were not the worst Legion in term of military achievement during the Crusade or later.

 

The biggest point for them is the Cult of the Emperor made by Lorgar. Regardless the abscence of a Primarch as a guide (he went traitor), the cult prospered and in the end giving some moral victory to Lorgar and his WB.

[Lepaca]

Their quest for religious enlightenment has led them to discover the only truly divine force in the universe.

They were the legion that brought about the Heresy.

Good or a bad thing? Ultimately, they did that because they were tricked. Lorgar was weak. The Chaos Gods lied to him. They told him what he wanted to hear, so he switched sides. Then, thinking he'd finally found his deities, he betrayed his entire species, and started a war of galactic genocide against the very people he was entrusted to protect. All because he was reprimanded by his Father, and he couldn't handle the rejection. Now he's been sitting in a tower for 10,000 years writing a book nobody will read.

 

 

How were they tricked? When was Lorgar being lied to? Yes, they told him what he wanted to hear but that was actually the truth. ;)

 

Considering the original question: I think that a lot of the Primarchs had a really negative effect on their legions.

Fulgrim and Angron caused their legions to lose all military discipline and organisation (post-heresy of course).

The Lion caused his legion and it's descendants to become extremly paranoid and secretive to the point where they actually kill their allies to protect their secrets.

Who knows what Alpharion and his brother did to their legion.

Corvus almost destroyed his whole legion by messing with their gene-seed.

 

And so on and so on. Which primarch had the worst influence? Really depends what you consider to be the worst!

For me it might be Fulgrim and Angron because I really dislike the fact that both the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters are mostly warbands of roaming lunatics at this point.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I think the only primarchs we can safely discount from causing harm to their legions are Vulkun and Roboute, woul say Sanguinius, but he did start the blood rituals, or at least not stop them that would make his cure worse then it would have been.

[Emperor's Furor]

Their quest for religious enlightenment has led them to discover the only truly divine force in the universe.

They were the legion that brought about the Heresy.

Good or a bad thing? Ultimately, they did that because they were tricked. Lorgar was weak. The Chaos Gods lied to him. They told him what he wanted to hear, so he switched sides. Then, thinking he'd finally found his deities, he betrayed his entire species, and started a war of galactic genocide against the very people he was entrusted to protect. All because he was reprimanded by his Father, and he couldn't handle the rejection. Now he's been sitting in a tower for 10,000 years writing a book nobody will read.

 

 

How were they tricked? When was Lorgar being lied to? Yes, they told him what he wanted to hear but that was actually the truth. ;)

 

Considering the original question: I think that a lot of the Primarchs had a really negative effect on their legions.

Fulgrim and Angron caused their legions to lose all military discipline and organisation (post-heresy of course).

The Lion caused his legion and it's descendants to become extremly paranoid and secretive to the point where they actually kill their allies to protect their secrets.

Who knows what Alpharion and his brother did to their legion.

Corvus almost destroyed his whole legion by messing with their gene-seed.

 

And so on and so on. Which primarch had the worst influence? Really depends what you consider to be the worst!

For me it might be Fulgrim and Angron because I really dislike the fact that both the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters are mostly warbands of roaming lunatics at this point.

 

 

I was thinking of what they did to the legion prior to the heresy even starting, it's obvious who made big errors going into the heresy, but what about before that, who laid the worse seeds within the legions that changed them from a noble aspect to the slope into oblivion?

[Brother Immolator]

The Lion caused his legion and it's descendants to become extremly paranoid and secretive to the point where they actually kill their allies to protect their secrets.

 

The Lion was pretty much wherever he is now, when the whole affair started. And I am not speaking about the betrayal. I am speaking of the DA learning that the Fallen do in fact still exist. The Lion tried to eliminate them in Caliban completely.

To be completely honest though anything goes since this is speculation on a grey area in the fluff. But from what we know the sequence of events goes like this:

 

Betrayal-Bombardment-Blow Up-Lion MIA-Superficial Codex reforms (that most likely has been according to the Lion)-Undisclosed time since fallen rediscovery.

 

Also they don't turn on their allies. They wipe out certain members who know whats what and on rare occasions where there is no option leave a battle. But nobody knows this for a fact.

The fluff behind the DA is a complex thing with many grey areas and requires in-depth analysis and understanding. They are a complex entity and answers are not simple things to come by for their actions.

 

Contrary there are worse chapters out there. The illustrius blood angels and their successors been prime examples. And on that side note we forgot to mention the winged angel and the profound effect his death had on his legion.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Well I am glad that Leman Russ has not been considered detrimental to the VI Legion.

Leman might have been a dick to the other Primarchs but not to his own legion. Another good reason to be a Space Wolf fanboy

[Emperor's Furor]

The Lion caused his legion and it's descendants to become extremly paranoid and secretive to the point where they actually kill their allies to protect their secrets.

 

The Lion was pretty much wherever he is now, when the whole affair started. And I am not speaking about the betrayal. I am speaking of the DA learning that the Fallen do in fact still exist. The Lion tried to eliminate them in Caliban completely.

To be completely honest though anything goes since this is speculation on a grey area in the fluff. But from what we know the sequence of events goes like this:

 

Betrayal-Bombardment-Blow Up-Lion MIA-Superficial Codex reforms (that most likely has been according to the Lion)-Undisclosed time since fallen rediscovery.

 

Also they don't turn on their allies. They wipe out certain members who know whats what and on rare occasions where there is no option leave a battle. But nobody knows this for a fact.

The fluff behind the DA is a complex thing with many grey areas and requires in-depth analysis and understanding. They are a complex entity and answers are not simple things to come by for their actions.

 

Contrary there are worse chapters out there. The illustrius blood angels and their successors been prime examples. And on that side note we forgot to mention the winged angel and the profound effect his death had on his legion.

 

Well the Dark Angels did destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser and did attempt to kill Space Wolves during one of the Ragnar novels due to a Fallen being around.

[Brother Immolator]

Well the Dark Angels did destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser and did attempt to kill Space Wolves during one of the Ragnar novels due to a Fallen being around.

 

It got lost in the warp...

 

Seriously now, for all we know the templars might be in the cells in the rock. If only they were not so stubborn it could have been avoided by handing over a prisoner. After all the DA are a First founding Legion.

And if you remember in the novel with the wolves the DA kill team Lions Pride sides with Ragnar and they part ways peacefully. Ragnar is the only person outside the DA command structure to know of the secret out of respect.

[Wade Garrett]

Topic Primaris:

People forget that the Nails didn't just make the War Hounds angrier, they led to noticeable physical superiority over regular Astartes as well. Consider the unarmored World Eater in Outcast Dead punching through a Custodians breastplate with his bare hands.

 

Topic Secundus:

The only area I can think of where the Chaos Gods might have lied to the Word Bearers was the claim that Chaos was humanity's only hope for survival against the xenos. It's not like there's some teeming horde of aliens that is currently eating its way through Ultima Segmentum or anything... :lol:

 

Not to mention I have no idea where Veteran Sergeant got his info on Calth but that was definitely a win for the XVII, they crippled the Ultras naval assets and put them out of action for the rest of the Heresy. The Ultras did return and take back the planet...by killing off such stragglers as the Word Bearers had left behind when they evacuated after blowing up Calth's sun.

 

Topic Triaris:

The Black Templars should bow to the DA because they're a First Founding? How about the Angels show some respect for a force that was forged in the fires of the Siege of Terra while the Angels were futzing around the middle of nowhere playing hide and seek with the Night Lords?

[daveNYC]

Well the Dark Angels did destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser and did attempt to kill Space Wolves during one of the Ragnar novels due to a Fallen being around.

 

It got lost in the warp...

 

Seriously now, for all we know the templars might be in the cells in the rock. If only they were not so stubborn it could have been avoided by handing over a prisoner. After all the DA are a First founding Legion.

And if you remember in the novel with the wolves the DA kill team Lions Pride sides with Ragnar and they part ways peacefully. Ragnar is the only person outside the DA command structure to know of the secret out of respect.

 

Oh god that's horrible writing. Hey, yeah, I know we usually kill everyone who we even suspect of getting close to this secret, including other Astartes and even members of the Inquisition, but you're pretty cool so we'll let you walk. Guh.

 

And being a First Founding chapter probably doesn't go as far with the Second Founding chapters as it might with a younger chapter. Especially one like the Black Templars who are all survivors of the Siege of Terra and think that they're the ones doing things right and the rest of the codex chapters are the idiots.

 

DA: Hand him over, we're First Founding and you should show some respect.

BT: We were forged from the survivors of the Siege of Terra, we held the line against the traitors and have spent the last ten thousand years crusading against the enemies of mankind.

 

Good luck with that.

[DarthMarko]

The Lion caused his legion and it's descendants to become extremly paranoid and secretive to the point where they actually kill their allies to protect their secrets.

 

The Lion was pretty much wherever he is now, when the whole affair started. And I am not speaking about the betrayal. I am speaking of the DA learning that the Fallen do in fact still exist. The Lion tried to eliminate them in Caliban completely.

To be completely honest though anything goes since this is speculation on a grey area in the fluff. But from what we know the sequence of events goes like this:

 

Betrayal-Bombardment-Blow Up-Lion MIA-Superficial Codex reforms (that most likely has been according to the Lion)-Undisclosed time since fallen rediscovery.

 

Also they don't turn on their allies. They wipe out certain members who know whats what and on rare occasions where there is no option leave a battle. But nobody knows this for a fact.

The fluff behind the DA is a complex thing with many grey areas and requires in-depth analysis and understanding. They are a complex entity and answers are not simple things to come by for their actions.

 

Contrary there are worse chapters out there. The illustrius blood angels and their successors been prime examples. And on that side note we forgot to mention the winged angel and the profound effect his death had on his legion.

 

Completely agree...+1

[Brother Immolator]

Hide and sick with the nightlords... We are the survivors of the siege of terra.... Yeah right because the nightlords were nothing and its the same templars since then right? And thats excactly what the dialogue exchange went? You probably have no Idea what the meaning first founding has and the dialogue you posted is totally out of context of the situation at hand which you basically fail to grasp.

 

EDIT: And because you got it wrong, since you highlighted that part i assume, I didn't mean out of respect for the DA, which ofc he does since the bond between the respective chapters runs deep, what I meant was out of respect for him since he handled the whole afair honorably and with understanding.

 

Unless you can offer an appropriate answer based on fluff there is no point discussing this on the kindergarten sorry.

[daveNYC]

Hide and sick with the nightlords... We are the survivors of the siege of terra.... Yeah right because the nightlords were nothing and its the same templars since then right? And thats excactly what the dialogue exchange went? You probably have no Idea what the meaning first founding has and the dialogue you posted is totally out of context of the situation at hand which you basically fail to grasp.

 

EDIT: And because you got it wrong, since you highlighted that part i assume, I didn't mean out of respect for the DA, which ofc he does since the bond between the respective chapters runs deep, what I meant was out of respect for him since he handled the whole afair honorably and with understanding.

 

Unless you can offer an appropriate answer based on fluff there is no point discussing this on the kindergarten sorry.

 

It's been a while since I read the DA codex, but I believe it mentioned that the DA would do anything to keep their secret. Up to and including killing or mindwiping their own members if it appeared like they couldn't handle the truth. They are a chapter whose definining characteristic is keeping secrets. The only person who knows the whole truth of things is the chapter master, below that level you get lies by omission, and once you leave the Deathwing/Ravenwing level of the chapter you're being fed just straight up lies and half-truths. And along comes Ragnar who finds out the ultimate shame of the DA, and they let him walk away? The DA are an insular chapter who are paranoid that the truth of the Fallen will be found out, and that insularity and paranoia only increases as you move up the command structure (they self select for it). Trusting Ragnar, a Space Wolf (and we all know how much those two chapters love each other), to keep their secret on the basis that he's a honorable man stinks of bad writing done specifically to make Ragnar an awesomely awesome Mary Sue type character. I mean seriously, the one non-Dark Angel to know about the Fallen and he's a freaking Space Wolf?

 

I know exactly what First Founding means. You aren't taking into account what the Second Founding was. It wasn't grabbing a command group of marines and then building up some mooks from scratch using geneseed from Mars. It was splitting the men, equipment, and relics of the various Legions. Every initial member of a second founding chapter was once part of one of the legions. They might not have the Imperial Fist name, but their history goes back just as far, which is quite different from some eleventy-somethingorother founding from M36. Plus the BT aren't just any second founding chapter. They're the portion of the Imperial Fists that thought the codex was for suckers, grabbed a pile of ships to go kick xenos and heretic butt, and haven't stopped kicking butt for the last ten thousand years. They're not going to pay attention to a first founding chapter trying to pull rank. They're the Black Templars and they think everyone else is doing it wrong.

[Brother Immolator]

Hide and sick with the nightlords... We are the survivors of the siege of terra.... Yeah right because the nightlords were nothing and its the same templars since then right? And thats excactly what the dialogue exchange went? You probably have no Idea what the meaning first founding has and the dialogue you posted is totally out of context of the situation at hand which you basically fail to grasp.

 

EDIT: And because you got it wrong, since you highlighted that part i assume, I didn't mean out of respect for the DA, which ofc he does since the bond between the respective chapters runs deep, what I meant was out of respect for him since he handled the whole afair honorably and with understanding.

 

Unless you can offer an appropriate answer based on fluff there is no point discussing this on the kindergarten sorry.

 

It's been a while since I read the DA codex, but I believe it mentioned that the DA would do anything to keep their secret. Up to and including killing or mindwiping their own members if it appeared like they couldn't handle the truth. They are a chapter whose definining characteristic is keeping secrets. The only person who knows the whole truth of things is the chapter master, below that level you get lies by omission, and once you leave the Deathwing/Ravenwing level of the chapter you're being fed just straight up lies and half-truths. And along comes Ragnar who finds out the ultimate shame of the DA, and they let him walk away? The DA are an insular chapter who are paranoid that the truth of the Fallen will be found out, and that insularity and paranoia only increases as you move up the command structure (they self select for it). Trusting Ragnar, a Space Wolf (and we all know how much those two chapters love each other), to keep their secret on the basis that he's a honorable man stinks of bad writing done specifically to make Ragnar an awesomely awesome Mary Sue type character. I mean seriously, the one non-Dark Angel to know about the Fallen and he's a freaking Space Wolf?

 

I know exactly what First Founding means. You aren't taking into account what the Second Founding was. It wasn't grabbing a command group of marines and then building up some mooks from scratch using geneseed from Mars. It was splitting the men, equipment, and relics of the various Legions. Every initial member of a second founding chapter was once part of one of the legions. They might not have the Imperial Fist name, but their history goes back just as far, which is quite different from some eleventy-somethingorother founding from M36. Plus the BT aren't just any second founding chapter. They're the portion of the Imperial Fists that thought the codex was for suckers, grabbed a pile of ships to go kick xenos and heretic butt, and haven't stopped kicking butt for the last ten thousand years. They're not going to pay attention to a first founding chapter trying to pull rank. They're the Black Templars and they think everyone else is doing it wrong.

 

 

First of all glad you turned around and came to reply with facts.

Now lets see. Whether it is bad writing or not it is there. You want my opinion about BL and 40k lore in general? Its a bad copy paste of a thousand other works especially the Dune series. Having said that its still there and regardless of our opinion thats what defines that universe. Plus you forget that the DA and SW contrary to what people believe are true brothers. There is a strong bond and kinship between them. A dark angel and a space wolf would keep barking and teasing one another but in the end one would sacrifice himself for the other, just as the Lion and the Wolf would do.

 

As for the foundings. I know that you know that. Or to be more precise, I have that mind set you have it too. Go tell that to a space marine. We are speaking about savages who have been genetically manipulated and indoctrinated to be killing machines with a delusion of honor and glory. The ultramarines send two marines into they eye of terror just because they didn't follow the tenets of a ten thousand year old book and thereby 'tarnishing' the honor of the chapter.

The DA have kept their secrets partly thanks to the facts that they are 1st founding and the very first legion. Its Roman empire politics. Prestige and honor. Is it dust in the wind? It certainly is. Does it work like that in the imperium of man? It does indeed, after all the DA did manage to convince the High Lords to commission a whole new chapter without specifying a purpose. Do you honestly believe that a second founding chapter would pull through all the stunts (abandoning allies, though not confirmed, inquisitors missing, not even communicating with their allies unless 100% needed) without the political leverage of their position? A later founding chapter would have been excommunicated or at the very least put under harsh inquisitorial survey. You are arguing that the templars gave the finger to the codex. Yes they did (and I am with them on that) but that doesnt change their standing(or in fact it does see below), they are second founding and in the politics of the imperium it works like that. Even they fanatical as they are know that you have to keep friends inside the imperium. After all they have a few odd marines to hide themselves. And if they dont then you have this: The words of a second founding chapter who outright defies the decree of the codex astartes (which the inquisition fully embraces by virtue of controlling the chapters) vs a The first legion (remember its all about prestige) who formally has only good deeds to show to the imperium and is fully compliant. And no evidence to make a case. So yes they are going to pay attention to the first foundings 'pranks' because they have to play by the rules. Point in case the matter in the gulf ended there and as a forum member said: We have nothing to do with them, they got Gulfed.

 

Just to clarify. I am a pro templar and I am quite verse in their fluff. Before I started with the green dudes I did my homework on the both of them.

Just because we highjacked the thread a lot I would like to ask anyone who wants to continue this debate to switch to PMs. I am happy to oblige as long as it is kept civil.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Ragnar Blackmane never has anything more than suspicions about the Dark Angels in Sons of Fenris. The truth is never fully revealed and both Chapters leave each other to their secrets. Reading the books or doing a little fact finding would help you from derailing the OPs topic ^.^

 

Anyways, I have to agree with Khestra the Unbeheld and say the Lion had the most negative impact on his Legion in the Pre-Heresy period for the reasons he outlined. They are the only Legion I could think of that has an internal schism brewing within it before the arrival of the Emperor. All the other Chapters/Legions all made their decisions on if they were Loyal or Traitor and did the appropriate housecleaning to ensure that was the case. The Dark Angels were the only Legion that failed in this task.

[Wade Garrett]

The words of a second founding chapter who outright defies the decree of the codex astartes (which the inquisition fully embraces by virtue of controlling the chapters) vs a The first legion (remember its all about prestige) who formally has only good deeds to show to the imperium and is fully compliant. And no evidence to make a case. So yes they are going to pay attention to the first foundings 'pranks' because they have to play by the rules. Point in case the matter in the gulf ended there and as a forum member said: We have nothing to do with them, they got Gulfed.

 

First Founding or not, the Dark Angels are in no way, shape, or form a fully compliant chapter with only good deeds to show. The lengths they will go to in keeping their secret ("Inquisitor Bob vanished while on an investigation near Caliban, you say? Nope. We never saw him. He must have been lost in the Warp. Very tricky things, the Warp currents around Caliban.") ensures that they're going to have a less than sterling reputation with the other factions of the Imperium.

 

As for the respect and prestige of being a First Founding Chapter...I'm sure there are some Space Marine Chapters who are very reverential of the First Foundings (for instance, Genesis and Aurora Chapters are very respectful of the Ultramarines.) And there are some Chapters who literally could not care less. The Black Templars very much in category B, they're not the only ones, and this is a well documented part of the background.

 

We've seen how the Black Templars react to a First Founding they disagree with in Helsreach. That reaction was to tell the Salamanders "Get out of my city." The Red Hunters chapter conducted an orbital bombardment of Fenris during the Space Wolves little scuffle with the Inquistion after the First War of Armegeddon, the Minotaurs told Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines where he could go and what he could do when he got there during the Badab War, and the Marines Malevolent did everything but start a full chapter far with the aforementioned Salamanders.