Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Kol Saresk]

The "prestige" of being a First Founding Chapter is only observed by other First Founding Chapters and the more "respectful"(Is that the right word?) of the Successors. As for the Imperium at large, it varies even more, leaning towards the "I don't know so I really don't care" side of the spectrum. It's just not that big of a deal any more. Chaos Marines hold onto it simply as a matter of "I've done more than you so I should be in charge and have all the power."

 

Also, someone said Ragnar knows the secret of the DA. That is not true. Ragnar only knows that the DA were after that one specific Guard commander. He never found out why and he never even found out that the Guard commander was actually a Space Marine. So that statement is riddled with holes. I can't point specifics since my book is in another town at the moment, btu I do remember that part rather clearly because it was pointed out to me when I had made a similar statement forever and a half ago on another forum. So from one wrong person to another, the statement is false.

 

As far as the Lion, it's kind of "eh" because the Dark Angels could have just went the route of "Here are our scars and sins. We shall wear them not as marks of shame, but symbols that we have undergone our crucibles and that we have come out better for it." They chose their damnation willingly with no "recorded" influence from the Lion. Even the schism isn't truly the Lion's fault. Yes, he is more than partially responsible for the discontent of the DA on Caliban, but to be honest I think something fishy is going on there. I think it's going to end up coming out that Luther was loyal to the Lion, not the Imperium and when he got sent home, he suffered from "Lorgaritus" and forced Caliban to go rebel. I mean, something else is at work. Caliban hasn't even heard of the Edict and IIRC, they don't even know the Heresy is happening. Information is not flowing into Caliban for some reason. Whether it's Luther imposing a communications black out or its some side effect of the Heresy at large(all those warp storms). We can argue what is what all night and day and not one side be proven correct though. It's just the way I see it, the DA did it to themselves.

[Wade Garrett]

If we're done discussing the Dark Angels, then I will bring up:

 

Roboute Guilliman, for reducing the Ultramarines from an uncountable Legion to a mere 1,000 Marine Chapter.

:D

[Veteran Sergeant]

How were they tricked? When was Lorgar being lied to? Yes, they told him what he wanted to hear but that was actually the truth

Almost everything the Chaos Gods told Lorgar was a lie. They even admitted that they were lying, and Lorgar believed it anyway. Read Aurelian, lol. The Oracle says "Hey, I'm gonna pull a storyline right of the movie Labyrinth and tell you that normally I tell one truth, and one lie. But not this time. Totally swear this is all the truth. :)

 

Wait a minute. One truth... "I always tell one truth and one lie", and then one lie... "I'm gonna tell you only the truth this time".

 

Oops. Lorgar is terrible at counting.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, they told him everything. Every lie and every truth. That's why he was allowed to see every outcome of the Heresy. Not just the "if Horus wins" and "if Horus loses" outcomes the Cabal showed Alpharius Omegon. And it's "One head lies and one head doesn't", not "one lie and one truth".

[Arkangilos]

All of you guys who said Sanguinius because of the Red Thirst and Black Rage after he died have forgotten that the Red Thirst existed before his death. I don't know if it existed before Sanguinius was reunited with his legion or before then, but it had existed for as long as Sanguinius had recalled. It just wasn't all that bad.

 

I think the only primarchs we can safely discount from causing harm to their legions are Vulkun and Roboute, woul say Sanguinius, but he did start the blood rituals, or at least not stop them that would make his cure worse then it would have been.

 

And they didn't drink blood before then, because they were more controlled. So saying that Sanguinius "kept their blood rituals" or whatever it was that you said, the blood ritual consisted of putting their blood together into a cup. They didn't drink it. There is nothing blood thirsty about that, it is like becoming a blood brother. Literally, how it was described in the book made it have nothing to do with the Red Thirst, which is the need to drink blood. It was just a blood bonding experiences.

 

 

I'm not saying that Sanguinius' death did not screw up his legion, but being united with his legion did not harm his legion, it only made it stronger. Since this is about when he was united with them, and set before his death, I mention that.

[Veteran Sergeant]

And it's "One head lies and one head doesn't", not "one lie and one truth".

No, very clearly:

‘I am Kairos, the Oracle of Tzeentch,’ said both heads. ‘I am bound to always speak one truth and one lie.' The creature rattled its withered wings. Several blue-black feathers, the colour of

ugly bruises, drifted from its pinions.‘But this is a moment of great divinity. A nexus of possibility. A fulcrum. The Great Gods have bound me to speak only the truth, in this moment of moments.'

p.79

 

One truth. One lie. It's crystal clear. "We're totally gonna lie to you half the time. So, hey, check this out. Swear this next part is true." ;)

 

Though, to be fair, it isn't Labyrinth I was thinking of. That's one door guy always tells the truth, one door guy always lies. The one truth, one lie comes from somewhere else that escapes me right now.

 

 

As an aside, notice that the encounter with Guilliman in the vision in Aurelian is almost identical to what happens between Guilliman and Kor Phaeron in Know No Fear. Lorgar/Phaeron beats Guilliman using Chaosy powers, then moves to gloat Bond Villain style instead of finishing him off. The Chaos Gods knew that Guilliman would win that encounter, probably because he fights with his logic and reason, and the Word Bearers fought with their emotions. By tricking Lorgar into staying away from Calth, they saved their new Primarch Toy, and Kor Phaeron gets gutted instead. Tzeetch loves his plots and manipulations, and changing stuff.

[Brother Immolator]

I think Fulgrim did a great job degenerating the emperors children to nothing more than pleasure seeking drug induced psichopaths.

 

All of you guys who said Sanguinius because of the Red Thirst and Black Rage after he died have forgotten that the Red Thirst existed before his death. I don't know if it existed before Sanguinius was reunited with his legion or before then, but it had existed for as long as Sanguinius had recalled. It just wasn't all that bad.

 

 

Agreed, although I think the fact that they had since before the heresy is a recent retcon no? Anyway, his death opened the Pandoras box really. It got it only worse to the point of been responsible for the friendly neighborhood flesh tearers been almost nothing more than khornate cult.

[Lepaca]

Well the Dark Angels did destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser and did attempt to kill Space Wolves during one of the Ragnar novels due to a Fallen being around.

 

It got lost in the warp...

 

 

Oh yes, I'm sure that was all a terrible misunderstanding. :no:

 

How were they tricked? When was Lorgar being lied to? Yes, they told him what he wanted to hear but that was actually the truth

Almost everything the Chaos Gods told Lorgar was a lie. They even admitted that they were lying, and Lorgar believed it anyway. Read Aurelian, lol. The Oracle says "Hey, I'm gonna pull a storyline right of the movie Labyrinth and tell you that normally I tell one truth, and one lie. But not this time. Totally swear this is all the truth. ;)

 

Wait a minute. One truth... "I always tell one truth and one lie", and then one lie... "I'm gonna tell you only the truth this time".

 

Oops. Lorgar is terrible at counting.

 

I did read Aurelian, lol. :P

 

And yes, while the Oracle does also lie to him (Because that is it's freaking nature. It simply has to speak in lies and riddles!) the Chaos Gods none the less also reveal the truth to Lorgar (to stand against the Gods would be the end of humanity, the union between mortal and neverborn will produce the highest form of existence, etc.) and he chose to believe those truths.

So I still don't see your point really.

[Billuriye]

Almost everything the Chaos Gods told Lorgar was a lie. They even admitted that they were lying, and Lorgar believed it anyway. Read Aurelian, lol. The Oracle says "Hey, I'm gonna pull a storyline right of the movie Labyrinth and tell you that normally I tell one truth, and one lie. But not this time. Totally swear this is all the truth. :P

 

Wait a minute. One truth... "I always tell one truth and one lie", and then one lie... "I'm gonna tell you only the truth this time".

 

Oops. Lorgar is terrible at counting.

 

How do you know it told the truth saying "i am bound to always speak one truth and one lie"?

[Brother Amarel]

I think Fulgrim did a great job degenerating the emperors children to nothing more than pleasure seeking drug induced psichopaths.

This really isn't true until after the fall, and even then I don't think you can lay that entirely at the door of Fulgrim.

 

Stopping the timeline for this debate once the HH is affecting the Legions is probably the best way to see the effect of the Primarch, rather than Chaos, and I don't think many of them come out if it particularly well. Every Primarch modified their, up until that point, working rather well Legion to better suit their preferred style. In most instances this served to simply enhance the latent genetic flaws that were always bubbling under; the Dark Angels were always paranoid, the Emperor's Children were always vain, and so on.

 

The only Primarch whose Legion was split before the HH was El'Jonson. So, surely, it must be him?

[Brother Immolator]

The DA were split after the Heresy, The Lion tried to return to terra durring the siege, and got delayed along with the SW on the way because of those irrelevant Night Lords and those irrelevant subsectors in the way that were rebelling/joined chaos.

He arrived to Callibans system to (assuming) split the legion after the siege of Terra. At least thats what the dex says, we will see in a few books me thinks.

 

Yes the E. Children were always vain but was not he that introduced Slaanesh worship into the warrior lodges (or whatever they called them?). Seeking perfection and aestetics is one thing (the BA did too to a degree) turning into pleasure cults is another.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Almost everything the Chaos Gods told Lorgar was a lie. They even admitted that they were lying, and Lorgar believed it anyway. Read Aurelian, lol. The Oracle says "Hey, I'm gonna pull a storyline right of the movie Labyrinth and tell you that normally I tell one truth, and one lie. But not this time. Totally swear this is all the truth. ;)

 

Wait a minute. One truth... "I always tell one truth and one lie", and then one lie... "I'm gonna tell you only the truth this time".

 

Oops. Lorgar is terrible at counting.

How do you know it told the truth saying "i am bound to always speak one truth and one lie"?

Because if he didn't, then the entire thing is a lie, and we end up back where we started, where Lorgar was lied to by the Chaos Gods.

 

The author didn't write these lines on accident, lol. At least I hope he didn't. I like to give him a little more credit as an author than that. If the Oracle tells Lorgar that he is bound to tell one truth and one lie, it is because he's bound by those rules. Otherwise why say it at all? Just to be a jerk? How does it even serve his purpose? He could just leave that whole part out and just straight up lie to Lorgar the whole time. And if he did say it just to be a jerk, then he's definitely lying to Lorgar the whole time, and the whole conversation is an irrelevant mush of Oracle of Tzeetch storytelling time.

 

I'd like to think that the story is a little more sophisticated than that.

[Arkangilos]

You do realize that "one truth and one lie" does not necessarily mean that one head doesn't always speak in truth, and one head doesn't always speak in lies. So like, one head says, "one truth, and one lie." The other head says, "but this time we will tell only the truth."

 

One head says, "you will defeat the Emperor"

the other head says, "you will die."

 

I don't know, something like that.

[Veteran Sergeant]

You do realize that "one truth and one lie" does not necessarily mean that one head doesn't always speak in truth, and one head doesn't always speak in lies.

I don't know at what point you got the impression that I was suggesting anything like this.

 

You are mistaken.

 

 

I was only conveying exactly the text says. Both heads, speaking in unison, say that they normally have to tell one truth, and one lie. And then say they are only going to tell the truth. Which, of course, is the lie that they had just promised. Because Tzeetch is a sneaky, untrustworthy jerk.

[Emperor's Furor]

If one head speaks a lie and one speaks the truth, then you're saying that is a lie in the first place and that both of them still lie, can lie and do lie and did lie to Lorgar?

[Arkangilos]

You do realize that "one truth and one lie" does not necessarily mean that one head doesn't always speak in truth, and one head doesn't always speak in lies.

I don't know at what point you got the impression that I was suggesting anything like this.

 

You are mistaken.

 

 

I was only conveying exactly the text says. Both heads, speaking in unison, say that they normally have to tell one truth, and one lie. And then say they are only going to tell the truth. Which, of course, is the lie that they had just promised. Because Tzeetch is a sneaky, untrustworthy jerk.

 

Everything I have read (but I haven't read that book), says that Kairos has one head that speaks the truth, and one head that lies. And I didn't get the impression you were trying to say that, where do you get the impression I was thinking that is what you were saying?

[daveNYC]

Sorry about the minor derail.

 

I'm torn on who had the worst impact on their Legion, but I'm going to try a devil's advocate argument and say that all primarchs had a negative effect on their legion.

 

Prior to being joined with their primarch, each legion seemed to function pretty well as a regular old army composed entirely of genetically engineered supermen. Each one had their quirks, but nothing that was too out there (with the notable exception of the 1k Sons). Once they met their primarchs though, they ceased to function as working armies that answered to the Emperor and hence to mankind, but instead became extensions of their primarch's (or primarchs' in one instance) will. It's a reversal of the story where a child becomes an adult and moves outside their parent's shadow. With the legions, they were all superpowered adults who discovered their 'parents' and gave up some of their adulthood in order to become perpetual childern to a parent that they could never equal (much less surpass).

 

It doesn't hold 100%, and there were some primarchs that did do a lot of short term good (Fulgrim and Magnus) for their legions, but it is an interesting way of looking at the relationship between the legions and their primarchs.

[Veteran Sergeant]

You do realize that "one truth and one lie" does not necessarily mean that one head doesn't always speak in truth, and one head doesn't always speak in lies.

I don't know at what point you got the impression that I was suggesting anything like this.

 

You are mistaken.

 

 

I was only conveying exactly the text says. Both heads, speaking in unison, say that they normally have to tell one truth, and one lie. And then say they are only going to tell the truth. Which, of course, is the lie that they had just promised. Because Tzeetch is a sneaky, untrustworthy jerk.

 

Everything I have read (but I haven't read that book), says that Kairos has one head that speaks the truth, and one head that lies. And I didn't get the impression you were trying to say that, where do you get the impression I was thinking that is what you were saying?

Honestly, I'm not sure I know what anyone is trying to say anymore, and I've lost interested, lol.

 

 

That crafty Tzeentch. He got us.

 

 

 

Just as planned.

[Kol Saresk]

And it's "One head lies and one head doesn't", not "one lie and one truth".

No, very clearly:

‘I am Kairos, the Oracle of Tzeentch,’ said both heads. ‘I am bound to always speak one truth and one lie.' The creature rattled its withered wings. Several blue-black feathers, the colour of

ugly bruises, drifted from its pinions.‘But this is a moment of great divinity. A nexus of possibility. A fulcrum. The Great Gods have bound me to speak only the truth, in this moment of moments.'

p.79

 

One truth. One lie. It's crystal clear. "We're totally gonna lie to you half the time. So, hey, check this out. Swear this next part is true." ;)

 

Though, to be fair, it isn't Labyrinth I was thinking of. That's one door guy always tells the truth, one door guy always lies. The one truth, one lie comes from somewhere else that escapes me right now.

 

 

As an aside, notice that the encounter with Guilliman in the vision in Aurelian is almost identical to what happens between Guilliman and Kor Phaeron in Know No Fear. Lorgar/Phaeron beats Guilliman using Chaosy powers, then moves to gloat Bond Villain style instead of finishing him off. The Chaos Gods knew that Guilliman would win that encounter, probably because he fights with his logic and reason, and the Word Bearers fought with their emotions. By tricking Lorgar into staying away from Calth, they saved their new Primarch Toy, and Kor Phaeron gets gutted instead. Tzeetch loves his plots and manipulations, and changing stuff.

Later on, page 103 to be exact.

"The Primarch cursed. 'Which one of you is telling the truth?'

'I am.' they both said at once."

 

Hmm, curious that he asks which head is lying and which head is telling the truth if both are bound to tell one truth and one lie.

 

Also, had to pull this from Lexicanum because I don't have the Codex: Chaos Daemons or anything else with Kairos in it.

 

"A few mighty individuals, mortal and Daemon alike, are granted an audience with the Oracle for the completion of the most challenging of tasks for Tzeentch. The Oracle knows the answer to all questions; but only one head will always answer the truth, while the other simultaneously delivers a contradictory answer, which is false but equally believable. The resulting riddle invariably leaves the petitioner baffled. " <---LINKY

 

That's why I said what I said. It's been established fluff for as long as I have known Lexicanum to exist(about seven years or so) that when it comes to Kairos Fateweaver, one head lies and one head doesn't.

 

Also, Kairos gave two answers to every question asked. The one truth and the one lie. The only thing Lorgar saw one of was every vision up to the point when he asked to see every possible outcome of the war. Even when both heads said "I will tell the truth.", one was still lying because the heads act independently of each other.

 

As to which Primarch has had the "worst" impact, I think is going to end up becoming a matter of opinion. Simply because the Primarchs aren't the only ones to have impacts on their Legions. Fabius Bile, he remade Eidolon who was an integral part to Fulgrim's ascension and Julius could have destroyed the Laer sword instead of letting Fulgrim keep it. Toramino, if it wasn't for him Forrix and the Stonewrought wouldn't have become the trusting individuals they were in 40k. Khârn, if he had never found a way to calm down Angron, the Butcher's Nails would never been spread throughout the Legion and so on so forth with examples in every Legion. Some are from people who came after the Primarchs(Example, Curze brought terror tactics but post-Haunter Nostramo produced the murderers and sadists who would make up the Legion) and some of the impacts would be from people who entered the Legion the same time or even before the Primarch was found. So to be honest, it's not just the Primarch who is at fault. I still refer to one of my previous posts on what I said about the Dark Angels. And there are many others for each of the Legions.

[Watch Commander Danek]

Interesting question and love some of the answers. I think the Lion stance is a fascinating one. However the downfall of the 1st had less to do with the Lion as it had to do with politics between Terrans and Calibanians. While he could have handled things better, I don't think all of what transpired can be put squarely on his shoulders. There is the rub - alot of the Legions that were effected by the founding of their primarchs were effected by other things more. Some, like the IW, DA or NL had paranoia in their genetic make up. Others suffered more when non terran recruits were introduced, whether they be murderers and rapists like the nostraman convicts or sorcerers like those on Prospero. There's a ton of factors at play, as opposed to one.

 

If you look at what Legion was directly negatively impacted by their Primarch alone - not his founding world people in tow or geneseed 'quirks' - i think it's hard to argue against Angron. He single handedly upon being united with his Legion slaughtered several Crusade Veteran Captains and Praetors in a rage, scowled and steered them away from well rounded tactics to his meat grinder tenets and finally forced the Butcher's Nails on them. Whether or not they were any more aggressive then other Legions during the Crusade is moot. They were marines. He turned them into frothing monsters and led them ultimately into being decimated by bloodlust and shattered beyond repair. All by himself.

[Nehekhare]

interesting variation of the question: who had the worst impact after the heresy? Dorn in the iron cage, Corax' experimenting, Sanguinius' deathscream, the Lion's dirty little secret?

[Billuriye]

interesting variation of the question: who had the worst impact after the heresy? Dorn in the iron cage, Corax' experimenting, Sanguinius' deathscream, the Lion's dirty little secret?

 

Sanguinius probably, his is a dying legion. The rest don't have crippling disabilities and can grow given proper environment. Black Rage on the other hand...

[Brother Immolator]

I finished reading betrayal the (fw supplement) today. It seems all three Primarchs more or less were responsible for the degeneration of their legions (death guard, world eaters, sons of horus).

 

Many things have been cast in stone (finally) and the influence they played both on the fall and overall corruption of their legions is highlighted. Even if some people don't have it (because they don't care about the rules) have a read at it for fluff reasons. I dare say that most of the arguments raised on this thread will be put to rest in subsequent releases.

 

Plus it is stated again and again that the terrans vs new comers more or less was a problem for all legions.

 

interesting variation of the question: who had the worst impact after the heresy? Dorn in the iron cage, Corax' experimenting, Sanguinius' deathscream, the Lion's dirty little secret?

 

EDIT> Corax and Dorn all they had done was to effectively kill themselves and take actions that kept the numbers of their now chapters low for some time. So no major negatives here.

The most probably doesnt know that the Fallen exist, since he was incapacitated after the battle with Luther, Unless he doesn't 'sleep'.

 

If we take the chaos primarchs into accounts, with an exception or two, they destroyed their legions as coherent fighting forces more or less.

[Lepaca]

I finished reading betrayal the (fw supplement) today. It seems all three Primarchs more or less were responsible for the degeneration of their legions (death guard, world eaters, sons of horus).

 

Many things have been cast in stone (finally) and the influence they played both on the fall and overall corruption of their legions is highlighted. Even if some people don't have it (because they don't care about the rules) have a read at it for fluff reasons. I dare say that most of the arguments raised on this thread will be put to rest in subsequent releases.

 

Plus it is stated again and again that the terrans vs new comers more or less was a problem for all legions.

 

interesting variation of the question: who had the worst impact after the heresy? Dorn in the iron cage, Corax' experimenting, Sanguinius' deathscream, the Lion's dirty little secret?

 

EDIT> Corax and Dorn all they had done was to effectively kill themselves and take actions that kept the numbers of their now chapters low for some time. So no major negatives here.

The most probably doesnt know that the Fallen exist, since he was incapacitated after the battle with Luther, Unless he doesn't 'sleep'.

 

If we take the chaos primarchs into accounts, with an exception or two, they destroyed their legions as coherent fighting forces more or less.

 

You mean Dorn nearly got his chapter wiped out and Corax greatly damaged his legion's gene-seed.

I don't think though that we can really blame Sanguinius for the Blood Angels going into rage-mode after his death though since it was not caused by his actions but a flaw inherent in their gene-seed.

 

Still the award for "worst impact after the heresy" would propably go to Angron, Fulgrim or Curze because all of them caused a complete breakdown in the military structures of their legions!

Although this behavior at least makes sense for the two cult legions (Khorne does not care from where the blood flows and the ECs became so egoisitic in their struggle for new sensation that they stopped caring for each other) but the only excuse Kurze really has is his desire to prove that his methods were justified.

So I guess overall I'd vote for Kurze. :down:

[daveNYC]

interesting variation of the question: who had the worst impact after the heresy? Dorn in the iron cage, Corax' experimenting, Sanguinius' deathscream, the Lion's dirty little secret?

 

Unless something changes drastically, Corax's experiments have been pretty much a nothingburger. The Raven Guard seem to have ended up with a thousand or so new supermarines, and another couple thousand mutantmarines that are still capable of fighting for the Emperor. Not exactly the sanity shattering disaster I had been antisicpating. Could change though.

 

Dorn: Got the stupids and led the remains of his legion into a meat grinder that had been specially designed for them.

The Lion: Nuked their homeworld, eventually led to the insular paranoids that roam 40k today.

Sanguinus: Got himself dead, psychic backlash eventually makes the BA extra crazy. Not exactly something he had control of though.

Vulkan: ?

Manus: Dead.

Guilliman: Held the imperium together. You might make a case that the UM cling to tightly to the codex, but that's pretty weak.

Corax: Mutant marines.

Russ: Went to the Fang and stuff?

Khan: Did stuff and things? Seriously, someone write a story about this guy.

 

I'd say that Dorn is the winner there. He lost it mentally and took a lot of his people with him.