Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Brother Immolator]

You mean Dorn nearly got his chapter wiped out and Corax greatly damaged his legion's gene-seed.

I don't think though that we can really blame Sanguinius for the Blood Angels going into rage-mode after his death though since it was not caused by his actions but a flaw inherent in their gene-seed.

 

Yep, but in the long run they recovered. Also What I meant by killed themselves I mean it literally. Dorn died in a boarding action and Corax more or less lost it gone into a suicide run to the eye. I don't think he survived to be honest.

 

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

 

You cant blame Sanquinius Indeed, but nobody can deny that his death made matters worse than they were in the black rage thinkie. I wonder since the retcon that it existed before the death of Sanq, what is the true reason they have it.

 

Unless I am mistaken Vulcan got killed by Fulgrim and the Khan got lost in the webway chasing off some D. eldar.

 

As for the Nuking of Caliban, I am of two minds. I agree that it was a mighty stupid thing to do, but I wonder what and if Oroborus had to do with it.

[KarkassBC]

You cant blame Sanquinius Indeed, but nobody can deny that his death made matters worse than they were in the black rage thinkie. I wonder since the retcon that it existed before the death of Sanq, what is the true reason they have it.

 

I would put Sanguinius outside the list. The flaw was inside the geneseed and he hadn't control of things after his death.

[Kol Saresk]

You mean Dorn nearly got his chapter wiped out and Corax greatly damaged his legion's gene-seed.

I don't think though that we can really blame Sanguinius for the Blood Angels going into rage-mode after his death though since it was not caused by his actions but a flaw inherent in their gene-seed.

 

Yep, but in the long run they recovered. Also What I meant by killed themselves I mean it literally. Dorn died in a boarding action and Corax more or less lost it gone into a suicide run to the eye. I don't think he survived to be honest.

And yet Russ is believed to be alive after doing what Corax did. :rolleyes:

 

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

Hmm, ironic how previously published fluff says that it was Angron who bungled things up because he went running straight down to the surface while Fulgrim was stuck preparing Istvaan V for the Dropsite Massacre(Galaxy in Flames). Although yes, the daemon was inhabiting Fulgrim by that point but it did not have total control until Istvaan V after Fulgrim killed Ferrus.

 

As for the Nuking of Caliban, I am of two minds. I agree that it was a mighty stupid thing to do, but I wonder what and if Oroborus had to do with it.

I always remembered the fluff as the DA returned to Caliban, Caliban fired on the fleet, DA assaulted Caliban and then Caliban was destroyed by a warp storm that erupted in the center of the planet. So is there some bit of fluff that I am unaware of that changed the warp storm to orbital bombardment?

[Brother Immolator]

You mean Dorn nearly got his chapter wiped out and Corax greatly damaged his legion's gene-seed.

I don't think though that we can really blame Sanguinius for the Blood Angels going into rage-mode after his death though since it was not caused by his actions but a flaw inherent in their gene-seed.

 

Yep, but in the long run they recovered. Also What I meant by killed themselves I mean it literally. Dorn died in a boarding action and Corax more or less lost it gone into a suicide run to the eye. I don't think he survived to be honest.

And yet Russ is believed to be alive after doing what Corax did. :rolleyes:

 

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

Hmm, ironic how previously published fluff says that it was Angron who bungled things up because he went running straight down to the surface while Fulgrim was stuck preparing Istvaan V for the Dropsite Massacre(Galaxy in Flames). Although yes, the daemon was inhabiting Fulgrim by that point but it did not have total control until Istvaan V after Fulgrim killed Ferrus.

 

As for the Nuking of Caliban, I am of two minds. I agree that it was a mighty stupid thing to do, but I wonder what and if Oroborus had to do with it.

I always remembered the fluff as the DA returned to Caliban, Caliban fired on the fleet, DA assaulted Caliban and then Caliban was destroyed by a warp storm that erupted in the center of the planet. So is there some bit of fluff that I am unaware of that changed the warp storm to orbital bombardment?

 

Ill place it in numbers since I am too lazy to change format :D

 

1) Yes, believed i think is the key word though.

2)Angorn still charged but not out of madness but rage. Betrayal states that Fulgrim was insane. Retcons even minor do happen I guess. There is no info of him planing the Dropsite Massacre, though I can check this out tomorrow to be 100% sure.

3)Happened as you said but before the assault, they bombarded the planet. Caliban was not the most stable tectonic wise and slowly teared itself apart. The warpstorm came almost simultaneously to save those loyal to the dark gods (ironically there are fallen who are not chaos aligned and Luther was not taken by the storm...). The storm was most likely the doing of the entity inhabiting the planets core (Oroburous)in conjunction with the ruinous powers. This has always been like that in the fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

Well Oroborus was "exorcised" in Fallen Angels so I'm not sure if he can have any part in it. Although at the end of the same book, Luther did ask Zahariel if the Librarian had learned the daemon's name. Zahariel said no and then whispered the name to himself, which is why we know what it is. So I guess it's one of those things we won't know about until it comes out.

 

Oh, for ease of reference for Galaxy in Flames.

 

On page 284 is when the Traitors assault. Begins with World Eater vessels. On page 310, we see the traitor EC jump in, but they are led by Eidolon. On page 352, Fulgrin finally makes his entrance and apparently is coming from his failed attempt to convert Ferrus. Then there is this tidbit:

 

'Then if you are quite finished with me, I shall return to my Legion,' said Fulgrim, turning away.

 

Horus felt his choler rise at Fulgrim's infuriating tone and said, 'No, you will not. I have another task for you. I am sending you to Istvaan V. With all that has happened, the Emperor's response is likely to arrive more quickly than anticipated and we must be prepared for it. Take a detail of Emperor's Children to the alien fortresses there and prepare it for the final phase of the Istvaan operation.'

 

So this is another reason for me to maintain my belief that Forgeworld should stick to rules and models and leave the fluff alone. There might be inconsistencies in the BL series, but most of those are in the novels Graham McNeill wrote and BL currently is getting the stamp of approval from GW's IP department. If Forgeworld is still like it was when I asked about an earlier "retcon", then their reasoning will be "Well we interpreted the fluff correctly while the authors at Black Library have either misinterpreted the fluff or are wrong." I still want to know who was the individual that gave me that response.

[Arkangilos]

You cant blame Sanquinius Indeed, but nobody can deny that his death made matters worse than they were in the black rage thinkie. I wonder since the retcon that it existed before the death of Sanq, what is the true reason they have it.

 

Unless I am mistaken Vulcan got killed by Fulgrim and the Khan got lost in the webway chasing off some D. eldar.

 

As for the Nuking of Caliban, I am of two minds. I agree that it was a mighty stupid thing to do, but I wonder what and if Oroborus had to do with it.

 

 

The Black Rage was not retconned, neither was the Red Thirst.

 

The Black Rage come about after his death (and it is still that way, as it has always been). No one ever knew when the Red Thirst started, only that it had gotten worse over time.

 

Vulcan didn't get killed, either. He is also said to return once all of his relics are found.

 

And yet Russ is believed to be alive after doing what Corax did.

 

This is only the case because fans choose to believe that. There is nothing saying Corax is dead, either. The only difference between Corax and Russ in this case is that Russ has promised to return (from death if necessary), and he took people with him, where as Corax left alone and said, "Nevermore." That was the last thing he said.

 

 

Also, the Raven Guard have NOT recovered. They still have gene-seed problems to this day, and have difficulty reproducing because of it.

 

On page 284 is when the Traitors assault. Begins with World Eater vessels. On page 310, we see the traitor EC jump in, but they are led by Eidolon. On page 352, Fulgrin finally makes his entrance and apparently is coming from his failed attempt to convert Ferrus. Then there is this tidbit:

 

'Then if you are quite finished with me, I shall return to my Legion,' said Fulgrim, turning away.

 

Horus felt his choler rise at Fulgrim's infuriating tone and said, 'No, you will not. I have another task for you. I am sending you to Istvaan V. With all that has happened, the Emperor's response is likely to arrive more quickly than anticipated and we must be prepared for it. Take a detail of Emperor's Children to the alien fortresses there and prepare it for the final phase of the Istvaan operation.'

 

So this is another reason for me to maintain my belief that Forgeworld should stick to rules and models and leave the fluff alone. There might be inconsistencies in the BL series, but most of those are in the novels Graham McNeill wrote and BL currently is getting the stamp of approval from GW's IP department. If Forgeworld is still like it was when I asked about an earlier "retcon", then their reasoning will be "Well we interpreted the fluff correctly while the authors at Black Library have either misinterpreted the fluff or are wrong." I still want to know who was the individual that gave me that response.

 

I don't understand where you are coming from with this? How did his previous statement and your statement not fit?

 

 

Also, as to the Dark Angels thing, I always remember them blowing up Caliban through constant bombardment, and then the warp storm saved the fallen.

[Kol Saresk]

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

 

Now, it is possible that I am misreading this, but when I looked at this statement, it looked like it was saying that Fulgrim lost control of his sanity during the Istvaan III Massacre and caused such a high casualty rate amongst his own Legion that it pissed off Horus. According to Galaxy in Flames and Fulgrim, Fulgrim was in another sector entirely when the massacre happened and didn't arrive at Istvaan III until right before the end and he still didn't participate in the fight because he was sent straight to Istvaan V. So if I read the statement correctly and that is what Betrayal says, then it contradicts already established fluff that has Fulgrim somewhere else entirely and never truly participating in the events at Istvaan III.

[Arkangilos]

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

 

Now, it is possible that I am misreading this, but when I looked at this statement, it looked like it was saying that Fulgrim lost control of his sanity during the Istvaan III Massacre and caused such a high casualty rate amongst his own Legion that it pissed off Horus. According to Galaxy in Flames and Fulgrim, Fulgrim was in another sector entirely when the massacre happened and didn't arrive at Istvaan III until right before the end and he still didn't participate in the fight because he was sent straight to Istvaan V. So if I read the statement correctly and that is what Betrayal says, then it contradicts already established fluff that has Fulgrim somewhere else entirely and never truly participating in the events at Istvaan III.

 

 

Well, I wouldn't base my opinion on Betrayal off of hearsay on a thread about opinions (no offense). It is just that all of this could be taken as opinion, and therefore things can be misread by anyone (and that isn't saying you misread it, it is saying he could have misread it).

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Y'all should read ADB's blog post entitled "Heresy & Black Legion chatter in the mail this morning…".

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Y'all should read ADB's blog post entitled "Heresy & Black Legion chatter in the mail this morning…".

 

What, you mean the one where he said things told in the setting of 40K are subjective and vague on purpose, but things set in 30K require continuity because it's one story with multiple writers? As elated as I am at being vindicated in my assertation that 40K-era publications are "stories" and 30K-era ones are "information" and should be treated accordingly when sourced, things like the Fulgrim timeline dilemma lead me to think that someone at BL needs to tighten some knots on just what happened where and when and stop letting authors botch the continuity.

[Emperor's Furor]

You mean Dorn nearly got his chapter wiped out and Corax greatly damaged his legion's gene-seed.

I don't think though that we can really blame Sanguinius for the Blood Angels going into rage-mode after his death though since it was not caused by his actions but a flaw inherent in their gene-seed.

 

Yep, but in the long run they recovered. Also What I meant by killed themselves I mean it literally. Dorn died in a boarding action and Corax more or less lost it gone into a suicide run to the eye. I don't think he survived to be honest.

 

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

 

You cant blame Sanquinius Indeed, but nobody can deny that his death made matters worse than they were in the black rage thinkie. I wonder since the retcon that it existed before the death of Sanq, what is the true reason they have it.

 

Unless I am mistaken Vulcan got killed by Fulgrim and the Khan got lost in the webway chasing off some D. eldar.

 

As for the Nuking of Caliban, I am of two minds. I agree that it was a mighty stupid thing to do, but I wonder what and if Oroborus had to do with it.

 

Vulkan disappeared, Corax can go invisible so I'd say he has a good chance of survival, where as Leman Russ apparently has no armour or weapons any more and Magnus seems to think he's out of the picture. Dorn decided to "repent" for his perceived failure of the Emperor by going into the Iron Cage. Either way this thread is kind of about the Primarchs influence on changing the legions when they first took control, rather than what happened after during and after the heresy.

[Brother Immolator]

Yep I meant Ferrus. Sorry guys that was a quick typing and I messed it up, not Vulcan.

 

Kol_Saresk, No you are reading this correctly.

 

Telanicus, no offense taken, its just the most recent 'hands on fluff' reading I have read(finished it yesterday) so you know how things happen. I am not aware of the BL vs FW type of inconsistency. Its the third FW (the others been the siege of Vraks for the DA bits I wanted to gather), work I take into account regarding fluff. Shame though since the work is solid. Even without the rules armory and stuff, it is a great read.

 

The Black Rage was not retconned, neither was the Red Thirst.

 

The Black Rage come about after his death (and it is still that way, as it has always been). No one ever knew when the Red Thirst started, only that it had gotten worse over time.

 

I seem to remember that in the age of old, the black rage was a byproduct of Sanquinius death.

 

Well Oroborus was "exorcised" in Fallen Angels so I'm not sure if he can have any part in it. Although at the end of the same book, Luther did ask Zahariel if the Librarian had learned the daemon's name. Zahariel said no and then whispered the name to himself, which is why we know what it is. So I guess it's one of those things we won't know about until it comes out.

 

I wouldnt be too quick to draw a conclussion to that to be honest, but then again my thoughts on it having anything to do with the blow up of the planet is pure speculation so...

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah like I said, the daemon was removed but since Zahariel does know the daemon's name and IIRC Luther was wanting to try again, anything can happen and we just won't know what that is until we get there.

[Uvenla]

Betrayal states that Fulgrim clearly had lost it during the staging of the Istaavan 3 massacre. Cant remember if he was possessed by that point or not but the total casualties of the EC (loyalist and traitor) reached about 50k and that pissed off even Horus

 

Now, it is possible that I am misreading this, but when I looked at this statement, it looked like it was saying that Fulgrim lost control of his sanity during the Istvaan III Massacre and caused such a high casualty rate amongst his own Legion that it pissed off Horus. According to Galaxy in Flames and Fulgrim, Fulgrim was in another sector entirely when the massacre happened and didn't arrive at Istvaan III until right before the end and he still didn't participate in the fight because he was sent straight to Istvaan V. So if I read the statement correctly and that is what Betrayal says, then it contradicts already established fluff that has Fulgrim somewhere else entirely and never truly participating in the events at Istvaan III.

 

The thing was the preperation he had made was what some class as insane. He killed of those who would go through the heresy with him but in his eyes was to in-perfect to stand with him. So he judged to many to death then Horus had wished for. It is correct that he wasn't there since Eidolon carried the order instead.

[Kol Saresk]

@Uvenla, okay that's a little different. I was taking it as Fulgrim being there personally. If it was just "Eidolon, I want you knock off half the Legion" then it's a different story. Although since the Emperor's Children were supposed to be the smallest Legion, it wouldn't take much to be "devastating". Although, Horus getting pissed off at Fulgrim is still a little new because his mood over Istvaan III was over Angron just rushing in and keeping him from flattening the planet from orbit which caused a protracted siege which resulted in many more lives being lost that shouldn't have been so if Fulgrim is the one who cost too many lives then it still conflicts a little with that tidbit and I just realized that I'm rambling.

[Brother Immolator]

That pissing came after, It he got pissed two times now.

[Arkangilos]

Yep I meant Ferrus. Sorry guys that was a quick typing and I messed it up, not Vulcan.

 

Kol_Saresk, No you are reading this correctly.

 

Telanicus, no offense taken, its just the most recent 'hands on fluff' reading I have read(finished it yesterday) so you know how things happen. I am not aware of the BL vs FW type of inconsistency. Its the third FW (the others been the siege of Vraks for the DA bits I wanted to gather), work I take into account regarding fluff. Shame though since the work is solid. Even without the rules armory and stuff, it is a great read.

 

The Black Rage was not retconned, neither was the Red Thirst.

 

The Black Rage come about after his death (and it is still that way, as it has always been). No one ever knew when the Red Thirst started, only that it had gotten worse over time.

 

I seem to remember that in the age of old, the black rage was a byproduct of Sanquinius death.

 

Well Oroborus was "exorcised" in Fallen Angels so I'm not sure if he can have any part in it. Although at the end of the same book, Luther did ask Zahariel if the Librarian had learned the daemon's name. Zahariel said no and then whispered the name to himself, which is why we know what it is. So I guess it's one of those things we won't know about until it comes out.

 

I wouldnt be too quick to draw a conclussion to that to be honest, but then again my thoughts on it having anything to do with the blow up of the planet is pure speculation so...

 

The Black Rage did come about from his death, nothing has changed about that. The Red Thirst is what is in question, and they never really said when it started.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Y'all should read ADB's blog post entitled "Heresy & Black Legion chatter in the mail this morning…".

 

What, you mean the one where he said things told in the setting of 40K are subjective and vague on purpose, but things set in 30K require continuity because it's one story with multiple writers? As elated as I am at being vindicated in my assertation that 40K-era publications are "stories" and 30K-era ones are "information" and should be treated accordingly when sourced, things like the Fulgrim timeline dilemma lead me to think that someone at BL needs to tighten some knots on just what happened where and when and stop letting authors botch the continuity.

Yup. ADB does make the distinction between 30k and 40k, because the former requires the more stringent combing through, but in 40k anything goes. For example - a Space Marine buys Brotherhood of the Snake from the Barnes and Noble located on sublevel 3 of his Chapter's Fortress Monastary. Its truth is debatable, but it certainly could hold some actual nuggets in there that make it true.

[Chaplain Haladriel]

Topic Primaris:

People forget that the Nails didn't just make the War Hounds angrier, they led to noticeable physical superiority over regular Astartes as well. Consider the unarmored World Eater in Outcast Dead punching through a Custodians breastplate with his bare hands.

 

Topic Secundus:

The only area I can think of where the Chaos Gods might have lied to the Word Bearers was the claim that Chaos was humanity's only hope for survival against the xenos. It's not like there's some teeming horde of aliens that is currently eating its way through Ultima Segmentum or anything... :)

 

Not to mention I have no idea where Veteran Sergeant got his info on Calth but that was definitely a win for the XVII, they crippled the Ultras naval assets and put them out of action for the rest of the Heresy. The Ultras did return and take back the planet...by killing off such stragglers as the Word Bearers had left behind when they evacuated after blowing up Calth's sun.

 

Topic Triaris:

The Black Templars should bow to the DA because they're a First Founding? How about the Angels show some respect for a force that was forged in the fires of the Siege of Terra while the Angels were futzing around the middle of nowhere playing hide and seek with the Night Lords?

 

 

Yes they should bow down, the Dark Angels are the FIRST Legion, ever created. Read "Shadows of Treachery", the Dark Angel's catch Curze, the Lion nearly cuts him in two and the DA fleet smashes the Night Lords and wipes out their command structure. Then after the Night Lords retreat, the DA find them again and smash their fleet a second time effectively destroying them as a coherent Legion. I hardly call that playing hide and seek. Not to mention the campaign on Diamata, and Perditus, plus 7 whole years of unknown campaigning that hasnt been fluffed out yet. It is acknowledged multiple times the Lion is the greatest tactician in the Imperium and has won more battles than every other primarch except Horus.

 

The Primarch who buggered his Legion the most would have to be Lorgar and the Word Bearers, his Legoin set in motion the chain of events that led to the Heresy after all.

[Arkangilos]

Topic Primaris:

People forget that the Nails didn't just make the War Hounds angrier, they led to noticeable physical superiority over regular Astartes as well. Consider the unarmored World Eater in Outcast Dead punching through a Custodians breastplate with his bare hands.

 

Topic Secundus:

The only area I can think of where the Chaos Gods might have lied to the Word Bearers was the claim that Chaos was humanity's only hope for survival against the xenos. It's not like there's some teeming horde of aliens that is currently eating its way through Ultima Segmentum or anything... ^_^

 

Not to mention I have no idea where Veteran Sergeant got his info on Calth but that was definitely a win for the XVII, they crippled the Ultras naval assets and put them out of action for the rest of the Heresy. The Ultras did return and take back the planet...by killing off such stragglers as the Word Bearers had left behind when they evacuated after blowing up Calth's sun.

 

Topic Triaris:

The Black Templars should bow to the DA because they're a First Founding? How about the Angels show some respect for a force that was forged in the fires of the Siege of Terra while the Angels were futzing around the middle of nowhere playing hide and seek with the Night Lords?

 

 

Yes they should bow down, the Dark Angels are the FIRST Legion, ever created. Read "Shadows of Treachery", the Dark Angel's catch Curze, the Lion nearly cuts him in two and the DA fleet smashes the Night Lords and wipes out their command structure. Then after the Night Lords retreat, the DA find them again and smash their fleet a second time effectively destroying them as a coherent Legion. I hardly call that playing hide and seek. Not to mention the campaign on Diamata, and Perditus, plus 7 whole years of unknown campaigning that hasnt been fluffed out yet. It is acknowledged multiple times the Lion is the greatest tactician in the Imperium and has won more battles than every other primarch except Horus.

 

The Primarch who buggered his Legion the most would have to be Lorgar and the Word Bearers, his Legoin set in motion the chain of events that led to the Heresy after all.

 

Actually, Guilliman was the second best behind Horus, not the Lion.

 

Also, the sequence of creation for the legions doesn't make one legion more important than the others. They may have been the first legion created, but:

1) They have had less victories than the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves (and who knows how many other legions).

2) They were NOT selected for special roles like the Luna Wolves or Imperial Fists (who were asked to fortify Terra).

3) They were NOT put in charge of anything special, like the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, or the Luna Wolves.

4) They did not receive any major special honors like the Imperial Fists, or Emperor's Children (who were allowed to wear the Aquila).

5) Horus did not really see that the Lion should have been in charge of anything, yet before his Fall he felt that Sanguinius should have been, AND he was jealous and threatened by Sanguinius, not the Lion.

6) The Lion was tricked by the Iron Warriors, gave them the weapons to win in exchange for their support for him being the new warmaster, and then when he realized it, he decided to hold off and delay himself a little, hoping that when this situation was over, he would be named warmaster and be the one responsible for rebuilding the Imperium (which shows he cared more about himself, and didn't want Guilliman to show him up, which he did).

 

That's Sanguinius and the Blood Angels, Guilliman and the Ultras, Horus and the Luna Wolves, Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, Russ and the Space Wolves, and Dorn and the Imperial Fists.

 

So there you have it, at least six primarchs and legions already making him not the "best" and therefore making your comment about them being the "FIRST" legion pointless.

 

+Edit+

 

And I am willing to bet that Sanguinius could best him in combat.

[Augustus]

Actually, Guilliman was the second best behind Horus, not the Lion.

 

Also, the sequence of creation for the legions doesn't make one legion more important than the others. They may have been the first legion created, but:

1) They have had less victories than the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves (and who knows how many other legions).

2) They were NOT selected for special roles like the Luna Wolves or Imperial Fists (who were asked to fortify Terra).

3) They were NOT put in charge of anything special, like the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, or the Luna Wolves.

4) They did not receive any major special honors like the Imperial Fists, or Emperor's Children (who were allowed to wear the Aquila).

5) Horus did not really see that the Lion should have been in charge of anything, yet before his Fall he felt that Sanguinius should have been, AND he was jealous and threatened by Sanguinius, not the Lion.

6) The Lion was tricked by the Iron Warriors, gave them the weapons to win in exchange for their support for him being the new warmaster, and then when he realized it, he decided to hold off and delay himself a little, hoping that when this situation was over, he would be named warmaster and be the one responsible for rebuilding the Imperium (which shows he cared more about himself, and didn't want Guilliman to show him up, which he did).

 

That's Sanguinius and the Blood Angels, Guilliman and the Ultras, Horus and the Luna Wolves, Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, Russ and the Space Wolves, and Dorn and the Imperial Fists.

 

So there you have it, at least six primarchs and legions already making him not the "best" and therefore making your comment about them being the "FIRST" legion pointless.

 

+Edit+

 

And I am willing to bet that Sanguinius could best him in combat.

 

It is states it many a Dark Angels codex that the Lion was second in victories behind only Horus. The Lion was followed by Russ. This made him angry. I think BL may have changed this but whatever.

 

Horus opinions are worthless. He thought he could defeat the Emperor. Nuff said.

 

The Lion was not tricked. He gave them to a Primarch who seemed to have also disagreed with the Emperor over Horus being made Warmaster. A Primarch who had the support of the Regent of Terra. A Primarch who could have blown the Lion to bits if he wanted to.

 

Honors? The First Legion was good enough.

 

No offense. But your last comment was the most homer of homer-y things I have read in this thread.

[Wade Garrett]

Yes they should bow down, the Dark Angels are the FIRST Legion, ever created. Read "Shadows of Treachery", the Dark Angel's catch Curze, the Lion nearly cuts him in two and the DA fleet smashes the Night Lords and wipes out their command structure. Then after the Night Lords retreat, the DA find them again and smash their fleet a second time effectively destroying them as a coherent Legion.

 

Yes, I did read Shadows of Treachery. Specifically, the part where Sevatar had already divided the VIII Legion into six great companies and told them to scatter before the Angels ever showed up. All they did in the second fight was kill a rear guard of Night Lords and allow the bulk of them to escape. And many of those who escaped actually made it to Terra to fight in the Siege, unlike the Dark Angels themselves. Great job there, Lion. And while he gutted Curze in Prince of Crows, in Savage Weapons Lion had to be rescued from Night Haunter strangling him to death. So pffft to your 1st Legion, says I.

 

And let's not forget that the Angels's victory in the Thramas Crusade was made possible by the Lion meddling with the Tuchula engine, a warp construct that has some connection to Nurgle (see The Primarchs anthology) and Prince of Crows ended with the Night Haunter running loose on the lower deck of the Lion's flagship, the same ship that's carrying the daemon engine. That's not going to blow up in El'Johnson's face at all.

 

Also, you want Codex quotes?

 

"Chapters in the second category are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows......

.......

.......

These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the Great Primarch."

Codex Space Marines, Fifth Edition

Gosh, it sure doesn't sound like the Lion is considered the best military strategist even by his own gene sons.

 

And a non codex one:

"Rogal Dorn had perhaps the finest military mind of all the Primarchs."

Horus Rising, Dan Abnett, in 3rd person omniscient narrator mode

 

And one more:

"We are the Black Templars. We go where we will, and kill what we will. None but the Emperor may judge us. DEUS VULT!"

[Arkangilos]

Actually, Guilliman was the second best behind Horus, not the Lion.

 

Also, the sequence of creation for the legions doesn't make one legion more important than the others. They may have been the first legion created, but:

1) They have had less victories than the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves (and who knows how many other legions).

2) They were NOT selected for special roles like the Luna Wolves or Imperial Fists (who were asked to fortify Terra).

3) They were NOT put in charge of anything special, like the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, or the Luna Wolves.

4) They did not receive any major special honors like the Imperial Fists, or Emperor's Children (who were allowed to wear the Aquila).

5) Horus did not really see that the Lion should have been in charge of anything, yet before his Fall he felt that Sanguinius should have been, AND he was jealous and threatened by Sanguinius, not the Lion.

6) The Lion was tricked by the Iron Warriors, gave them the weapons to win in exchange for their support for him being the new warmaster, and then when he realized it, he decided to hold off and delay himself a little, hoping that when this situation was over, he would be named warmaster and be the one responsible for rebuilding the Imperium (which shows he cared more about himself, and didn't want Guilliman to show him up, which he did).

 

That's Sanguinius and the Blood Angels, Guilliman and the Ultras, Horus and the Luna Wolves, Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, Russ and the Space Wolves, and Dorn and the Imperial Fists.

 

So there you have it, at least six primarchs and legions already making him not the "best" and therefore making your comment about them being the "FIRST" legion pointless.

 

+Edit+

 

And I am willing to bet that Sanguinius could best him in combat.

 

It is states it many a Dark Angels codex that the Lion was second in victories behind only Horus. The Lion was followed by Russ. This made him angry. I think BL may have changed this but whatever.

 

Horus opinions are worthless. He thought he could defeat the Emperor. Nuff said.

 

The Lion was not tricked. He gave them to a Primarch who seemed to have also disagreed with the Emperor over Horus being made Warmaster. A Primarch who had the support of the Regent of Terra. A Primarch who could have blown the Lion to bits if he wanted to.

 

Honors? The First Legion was good enough.

 

No offense. But your last comment was the most homer of homer-y things I have read in this thread.

 

 

Funny that you say that your codex says that, because even though I am not an Ultramarine fan, it has ALWAYS been that no legion had done as well as the Ultramarines and the Luna Wolves. That is according to the Index Astartes, and Codex: Space Marines, so it was NOT a BL author who changed that.

 

Also, that was Horus's opinion BEFORE he turned to chaos, before his mind was clouded.

 

And to the, "He wasn't tricked" comment. When you say that he was not tricked, you are saying that he willingly gave weapons of war to the enemy of the Emperor, because he wanted to be warmaster. That makes him a traitor, which reinforces the Fallen saying that the Dark Angels are not good guys. Now, that means that they are the most worthless of any legion out there. Not only did they give weapons to the enemy, have a civil war, not come in first in any of the Great Crusade, and showed up late to Terra, they failed as both loyalists and traitors.

[DarthMarko]

@Chaplain Haladriel - first encoutner beetwen Lion and Curze ended Curz' choking the life out of Lion and if it wasn't for the backstaber Lion would be dead...even DA fans admited that 100 times...

But according to the index astartes/WD -victories during the great crusade were Horus/Lion/Russ (in that order)

but here is one article which shows how they are screwing with us:

Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths. Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster. In keeping with his patient, stony character, Dorn’s Legion had become renowned for siegecraft and defensive strategies. The Warmaster had once joked that where he could storm a fortress like no other, Rogal Dorn could hold it.

 

[Emperor's Furor]

@Chaplain Haladriel - first encoutner beetwen Lion and Curze ended Curz' choking the life out of Lion and if it wasn't for the backstaber Lion would be dead...even DA fans admited that 100 times...

But according to the index astartes/WD -victories during the great crusade were Horus/Lion/Russ (in that order)

but here is one article which shows how they are screwing with us:

Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths. Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster. In keeping with his patient, stony character, Dorn’s Legion had become renowned for siegecraft and defensive strategies. The Warmaster had once joked that where he could storm a fortress like no other, Rogal Dorn could hold it.

 

The author actually said it was a draw, anything could of happened and just because the last thing was the lion being throttled doesn't mean he was defeated.