Which Primarch had the worse Impact on his Legion?

[Arkangilos]

BTW, I am not trying to demean the Lion, I like him. I just really did not like the statement that he was better than the others, and that others should bow down for the Dark Angels simply because they were "the first Legion"

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

BTW, I am not trying to demean the Lion, I like him. I just really did not like the statement that he was better than the others, and that others should bow down for the Dark Angels simply because they were "the first Legion"

 

No, no, it's perfectly okay to demean him. We have whole subforums dedicated to it. -_-

[DarthMarko]

@Chaplain Haladriel - first encoutner beetwen Lion and Curze ended Curz' choking the life out of Lion and if it wasn't for the backstaber Lion would be dead...even DA fans admited that 100 times...

But according to the index astartes/WD -victories during the great crusade were Horus/Lion/Russ (in that order)

but here is one article which shows how they are screwing with us:

Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths. Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster. In keeping with his patient, stony character, Dorn’s Legion had become renowned for siegecraft and defensive strategies. The Warmaster had once joked that where he could storm a fortress like no other, Rogal Dorn could hold it.

 

The author actually said it was a draw, anything could of happened and just because the last thing was the lion being throttled doesn't mean he was defeated.

Guy sitting on you, choking the life out of you - backstaber comes and saves the day - a draw ??? Ok...

Then the second duel (which put Curze into a coma) was also a draw...Ok

[Kol Saresk]

Whoa, I'm gone for not even twelve hours and wow..... just wow.

[Legatus]

As far as Legion/Primarch accomplishments are concerned: Since 2nd Edition, there have been several sources crediting Horus, Jonson and Russ with the highest amount of "victories", in that order. There have also been several sources crediting Guilliman with the highest amount of "liberated worlds". (Achievements like wiping out an alien planet, defeating an alien fleet, or defending an already Imperial planet would count as a victory, but not as a world liberated for the Imperium.)

 

There is one source claiming that the Luna Wolves liberated the most worlds (3E IA: Luna Wolves), but it is contradicted by two Codex sources that state that the Ultramarines liberated the most worlds (2E Codex Ultramarines, 5E Codex Space Marines).

 

The passage about Dorn having the finest military mind and being second to Horus in terms of achievements is contradicted by other sources about the Imperial Fists (whose IA described their tactics as uninspired, even if their planning was excellent) and sources about the achievements of the Primarchs (such as the numerous Horus/Jonson/Russ accounts). But then that is Dan Abnett for you. Not that bothered with established material.

[Emperor's Furor]

@Chaplain Haladriel - first encoutner beetwen Lion and Curze ended Curz' choking the life out of Lion and if it wasn't for the backstaber Lion would be dead...even DA fans admited that 100 times...

But according to the index astartes/WD -victories during the great crusade were Horus/Lion/Russ (in that order)

but here is one article which shows how they are screwing with us:

Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths. Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster. In keeping with his patient, stony character, Dorn’s Legion had become renowned for siegecraft and defensive strategies. The Warmaster had once joked that where he could storm a fortress like no other, Rogal Dorn could hold it.

 

The author actually said it was a draw, anything could of happened and just because the last thing was the lion being throttled doesn't mean he was defeated.

Guy sitting on you, choking the life out of you - backstaber comes and saves the day - a draw ??? Ok...

Then the second duel (which put Curze into a coma) was also a draw...Ok

 

Bring it up with ADB, not me, he's the author and the one who said it.

[Arkangilos]

As far as Legion/Primarch accomplishments are concerned: Since 2nd Edition, there have been several sources crediting Horus, Jonson and Russ with the highest amount of "victories", in that order. There have also been several sources crediting Guilliman with the highest amount of "liberated worlds". (Achievements like wiping out an alien planet, defeating an alien fleet, or defending an already Imperial planet would count as a victory, but not as a world liberated for the Imperium.)

 

There is one source claiming that the Luna Wolves liberated the most worlds (3E IA: Luna Wolves), but it is contradicted by two Codex sources that state that the Ultramarines liberated the most worlds (2E Codex Ultramarines, 5E Codex Space Marines).

 

The passage about Dorn having the finest military mind and being second to Horus in terms of achievements is contradicted by other sources about the Imperial Fists (whose IA described their tactics as uninspired, even if their planning was excellent) and sources about the achievements of the Primarchs (such as the numerous Horus/Jonson/Russ accounts). But then that is Dan Abnett for you. Not that bothered with established material.

 

 

Lol, I knew that if Ultramarines and the Codex was mentioned, you would pop up! Haha.

 

Thanks for the information.

 

Whoa, I'm gone for not even twelve hours and wow..... just wow.

 

Lol, thats why I don't sleep anymore. Nothing can change while I am away or sleeping, if I'm never away nor sleeping. :tu:

[DarthMarko]

@Chaplain Haladriel - first encoutner beetwen Lion and Curze ended Curz' choking the life out of Lion and if it wasn't for the backstaber Lion would be dead...even DA fans admited that 100 times...

But according to the index astartes/WD -victories during the great crusade were Horus/Lion/Russ (in that order)

but here is one article which shows how they are screwing with us:

Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths. Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster. In keeping with his patient, stony character, Dorn’s Legion had become renowned for siegecraft and defensive strategies. The Warmaster had once joked that where he could storm a fortress like no other, Rogal Dorn could hold it.

 

The author actually said it was a draw, anything could of happened and just because the last thing was the lion being throttled doesn't mean he was defeated.

Guy sitting on you, choking the life out of you - backstaber comes and saves the day - a draw ??? Ok...

Then the second duel (which put Curze into a coma) was also a draw...Ok

 

Bring it up with ADB, not me, he's the author and the one who said it.

 

So if author (who must be (to a degree) impartial with his statments) tells you 2 + 2 = 0, you say fine ?

Ok -muscles in Lions neck fought Curzes hands to stand still (backstaber wasn't even needed)...

So much for reasoning...I'mean come on dude....

[Arkangilos]

I wonder if you misunderstood what the author said when he said it was a draw... Or his reasoning behind it.

[Emperor's Furor]

He 100% said it was a draw the fight was finished, anything could of happened before they were interrupted, I'm not adding anything up, Aaron said it was a draw.

[Emperor's Furor]

His explaination - http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showth...raw&page=13

 

Righto.

 

I've been just as guilty as over-analysing and being declarative as anyone else, which is weird, since my writing is always so carefully played out to show absolute neutrality. I never prefer Faction X to Faction Y, and I never suggest otherwise in my writing. It's a common criticism for a lot of writers, however.

 

If you look at The First Heretic, some people say Guilliman was being a smarmy bastard, other people say Lorgar was imagining it, and was deluded. That's the point. It's an objective look that shows the scene from no one's personal perspective, but it shows exactly what everyone believes, without being from their point of view. That's crucial, in my opinion, for a scene like that. It was a conscious choice, and quite hard to right, but I'm glad it worked well.

 

Savage Weapons isn't like that, because we're seeing it from Corswain's perspective. It's not an objective look on Everything That Happened; it's a series of slices of one character making out what details he can. That's why so much of the fight goes isn't there - because Corswain can't see it happening. Does Corswain think the Lion is going to go down for good? Yeah, probably. Is that objectively the truth? No, of course not. Not from everything we know, not from the fact we see it end perfectly 50/50 minutes later. Your focus determines your reality. He sees it, and that's described well, but most people reading it are aware it's a Dark Angel perspective.

 

As a writer, I ultimate chose that I wanted the Dark Angels to win the Thramas Crusade, and I wanted the Lion to slit Curze's throat, effectively being one of the few primarchs to legitimately beat another. And it was a conscious choice with Savage Weapons to show:

 

- The Dark Angels care about their primarch more than the Night Lords care about theirs.

- The Dark Angels are smart enough to try to tip the odds of an otherwise balanced fight, while the Night Lords get distracted with bloodshed or are too arrogant to care.

- The Lion was better than Curze with weapons, but Curze was better in a feral rough and tumble brawl.

- Curze is Chaos-tainted already, and had an advantage, but it still ends at 50/50. This implies the Lion is "better", for want of a better word.

- The fight ebbs and flows, with the advantage changing places. Had it gone on for longer, it probably would've swapped back.

 

The last one is the debate, natch. Now, objectively, we should know that primarchs can take a beating; that the Lion is up immediately afterwards; that it ends 50/50 a moment later; that we're seeing it through Corswain's limited, biased, worried eyes; and that the Lion takes a serious beating, but nothing worse than we've seen other primarchs take before, and manage a last-second recovery.

 

But the debate here, as from Corswain's perspective, I'd say you're right - absolutely, he thought the Lion was screwed. It definitely looked like that to him.

 

Objectively? No. It's clearly a story from his perspective. Very clearly. It's intensely subjective, and with all we know about the primarchs, we can see his bias clearly.

 

The problem arises when people take these versus threads and over-analyse them, seeing every morsel of information as solid fact, rather than biased perspective. Some stories are objective, written from an outsider's view. They're built by details of what's actually happening. Some are subjective, written from a character's point of view. They're built from examples of how a character perceives the events taking place. The danger is in taking that as solid objective fact. What Corswain saw was coloured by his worry and loyalty - thankfully, the objective facts (the Lion leaps up and goes for his sword right after, etc.) show that he was biased.

 

But it's an easy mistake to make. In this fandom, where people are precious and hungry for every comparative fact, it's easy to assume that every source is unbiased. Which is a shame, really. It lessens the impact of some great writing, in a lot of cases, when people are so hungry for information that they miss the point a little.

 

So, what do we know for sure, objectively? We know the Lion wasn't as injured as Corswain thought, as he gets right back up and goes for his sword. That's right there in the text. Do we know for sure if the Lion would have survived without the aid? No, of course we don't. We can infer it, we can guess it, and it's likely from everything we know of the primarchs (...and the fact the author secretly had already decided the Dark Angels were going to win the Thramas Crusade... Ahem...) but ultimately none of that matters. Either way, it's a guess. There's no evidence, but for a biased, panicked bystander.

 

That's where the misunderstanding is arising from. Corswain is a subjective narrator. You're taking his assumptions and perceptions as canon for how powerful a primarch is, and the ultimate end of a fight. We never saw that fight end, so we don't know. We can't know. From Cor's POV in the story, yeah, absolutely, he thought the Lion was down for the count.

 

Fortunately, later actions show he was wrong. That's the true part, the unbiased, objective part. That's how you balance a subjective bias, and show the other side: you show how the character is wrong, or another way of looking at it.

[Vesper]

He 100% said it was a draw the fight was finished, anything could of happened before they were interrupted, I'm not adding anything up, Aaron said it was a draw.

 

Well, that's not how I interpreted his words.

He explained how he tried to show that they both are great fighters, but not in the same way. It's a "draw" because in the first place Lion has the upper hand and then Konrad gives him a beating on the ground. ADB said that anything could have happened, that is right, but you have to consider that, most likely, that also means that the situation could very well end up with Lion being chocked to death. That is one of the possibilities (and the most plausible one, considering how the fight was turning).

[Emperor's Furor]

He 100% said it was a draw the fight was finished, anything could of happened before they were interrupted, I'm not adding anything up, Aaron said it was a draw.

 

Well, that's not how I interpreted his words.

He explained how he tried to show that they both are great fighters, but not in the same way. It's a "draw" because in the first place Lion has the upper hand and then Konrad gives him a beating on the ground. ADB said that anything could have happened, that is right, but you have to consider that, most likely, that also means that the situation could very well end up with Lion being chocked to death. That is one of the possibilities (and the most plausible one, considering how the fight was turning).

 

Look at my post above.

[Vesper]

I already did, when its author posted it in the first place. And that's the way I understand it.

[Emperor's Furor]

Neither side won, neither side lost, so it ended in a draw if you take all the subjective bias from the pov of Corswain or the readers bias and look at it objectively.

[Arkangilos]

Neither side won, neither side lost, so it ended in a draw if you take all the subjective bias from the pov of Corswain or the readers bias and look at it objectively.

 

Right, but that happened because someone else got involved, which means Kurze was winning.

[Vesper]

Neither side won, neither side lost, so it ended in a draw if you take all the subjective bias from the pov of Corswain or the readers bias and look at it objectively.

 

That's impossible to look at it objectively, because we don't have the tools to. What we can say is that none of them clearly won, yet the Night Haunter was in a dominant position before Corswain backstabbed him. Because those are the facts.

[Emperor's Furor]

Only because Corswain thought he was, who knows what the Lion would of done. This is what ADB was trying to get at, Corswain thought the Lion was being throttled to death, but the Lion might of just been biding his time, or about to rip out Curze's throat. You can't base the outcome on what was happening at the end because even though it appeared to Corswain that the Lion was in massive danger, he could of easily been comfortable and about to break Curze's neck etc.

[Arkangilos]

Only because Corswain thought he was, who knows what the Lion would of done. This is what ADB was trying to get at, Corswain thought the Lion was being throttled to death, but the Lion might of just been biding his time, or about to rip out Curze's throat. You can't base the outcome on what was happening at the end because even though it appeared to Corswain that the Lion was in massive danger, he could of easily been comfortable and about to break Curze's neck etc.

 

But if that is the case, you can't really say it is a draw, either. Because Corswain might have been right.

[Emperor's Furor]

All we do know is neither won and we don't know whether either of them would of made a killing blow thus the only outcome can be a draw.

[Vesper]

Only because Corswain thought he was, who knows what the Lion would of done. This is what ADB was trying to get at, Corswain thought the Lion was being throttled to death, but the Lion might of just been biding his time, or about to rip out Curze's throat. You can't base the outcome on what was happening at the end because even though it appeared to Corswain that the Lion was in massive danger, he could of easily been comfortable and about to break Curze's neck etc.

 

But if that is the case, you can't really say it is a draw, either. Because Corswain might have been right.

 

Pff. Telanicus you stoopid.

That was obviously part of the Lion's plan. He gets beaten by Curze, then he fakes death, Curze leaves and Lion backstabs him Dark Angels style. But Corswain, that moron, didn't get it, as he's not a tactical genius.

 

What I'm trying to say is that we can infere endlessly on what were the possible outcomes of the fight, but that's not the right thing to do. We must look to the facts : Lion was in a pretty bad situation.

He could have made it out, or died by the hands of Curze. We don't know, and to be honest, we don't care. The fight stopped here, there is no need for a winner in that fight. All we know is that the Lion was being chocked by Curze when Corswain stopped the fight.

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah Curze was in a pretty bad situation when the Lion drove his sword through him, but he came back, this is the point anything could of happened.

[Lepaca]

Neither side won, neither side lost, so it ended in a draw if you take all the subjective bias from the pov of Corswain or the readers bias and look at it objectively.

 

Right, but that happened because someone else got involved, which means Kurze was winning.

 

Sadly no. Although it appears that Kurze was winning (and I would concur that he was) we will never know for certain because someone else interrupted the fight.

So for lack of a better term we can only say that the duel ended in a draw (eventhough it seems likely that Kurze might have won).

 

But even if either the Lion or Kurze had won that particular duel it would not have made them the better Primarch overall.

[Arkangilos]

Only because Corswain thought he was, who knows what the Lion would of done. This is what ADB was trying to get at, Corswain thought the Lion was being throttled to death, but the Lion might of just been biding his time, or about to rip out Curze's throat. You can't base the outcome on what was happening at the end because even though it appeared to Corswain that the Lion was in massive danger, he could of easily been comfortable and about to break Curze's neck etc.

 

But if that is the case, you can't really say it is a draw, either. Because Corswain might have been right.

 

Pff. Telanicus you stoopid.

That was obviously part of the Lion's plan. He gets beaten by Curze, then he fakes death, Curze leaves and Lion backstabs him Dark Angels style. But Corswain, that moron, didn't get it, as he's not a tactical genius.

 

What I'm trying to say is that we can infere endlessly on what were the possible outcomes of the fight, but that's not the right thing to do. We must look to the facts : Lion was in a pretty bad situation.

He could have made it out, or died by the hands of Curze. We don't know, and to be honest, we don't care. The fight stopped here, there is no need for a winner in that fight. All we know is that the Lion was being chocked by Curze when Corswain stopped the fight.

 

*stupid

 

Lol.

 

 

I agree. My main point anyways was that the Black Templars shouldn't have to bow down to the Dark Angels for the reasons originally listed. So long as it is a draw, it is still supporting what I had to say.

[DarthMarko]

^LOL @vesper - dude you made me laugh so hard (my girlfriend is staring at me right now)...simple facts are simple facts - I wish people don't complicate things so much....